Birger Lens Mount Reservations

[Mark Pugh]

I'm tempted to call him.

Say "Hi" from me. Seriously I'll bet you $20 he won't pick up the phone. I've tried. And left messages on voicemail.

 

[Thom Steinhoff]

Guys, relax. He's not a shady guy who's run off with your credit card numbers. He's busy trying to do something no one else in the world seems to be able to do. He's doing something that even Red said they couldn't or wouldn't try to do--so cut him some slack.

If you have a problem with what he's doing--go ahead and buy the other digitally controlled, canon mount... how much is the other one again?

Oh, wait... there isn't one.

At this point, we all have two choices. Wait patiently for the genius to finish his work, or start shelling out the big bucks for PL lenses.

When this works, and it will work, my bet is that it is going to be a home run.

Give him time--he always surfaces. He is likely too busy trying to exceed all of our expectations to log on to Red User.

And from what it seems (2 stage mount that will support PL, Nikon, Canon) if he can truely pull it off--it will blow everyone away and it will be an amazing ride!

 

[Paolo Tinari]

Ok, then make just an announcement, don't ask for reservations without confirming them. I'm not asking for a titanium "B", just " you are in".

edit: and also it's kind of hurting to me to hear "wait in the dark, if you cant, go buy a PL..."

edit 2: and when did Red say they wouldnt or couldnt (and what did they exactly say: wouldnt or couldnt)?

BTW my talk is cheap, everything will fall in the right place at the end

 

[planet e]

Many of us run businesses here, and I make it a practice not to do business with businesses that don't run theirs with equal integrity. It never works out well. I would actually cancel my order, because I don't believe in supporting businesses that don't support their customers in the most rudimentary ways. But I have no idea if it was ever placed in the first place.

 

[Thom Steinhoff]

edit 2: and when did Red say they wouldnt or couldnt (and what did they exactly say: wouldnt or couldnt)?

It was Jim who said it, sorry I don't have a link but it was likely on DVXUser near the beginning. Someone posed a question on when the then announced Red canon mount would be smart or not, Jim responded saying that the Canon protocol is not a published protocol and they had no intentions of creating a smart mount. Obviously they had too much other magic in the works to bother with trying to reverse engineer anything. If someone else could do it--great--but Red wouldn't be doing it.

At the time, Erik had a smart mount for other (I believe military and experimental) uses and he was contacted by members of the forum to get involved as we all saw a need.

We all begged Erik to leverage his experience and existing mount to make it happen.

 

[Michael Hastings]

Microbusinesses

Microbusinesses

what legitimate business takes credit card numbers, but doesn't issue either receipt or confirmation? that's the crux issue.

product delays are normal, but this is a really shaky and substandard business practice.

Microbusinesses - where the same couple of people have to do everything. If we are answering phone questions or filing papers or whatever, then we aren't getting the production done and at some point you have to hide and just get some work done.

I understand your frustration and I also think Erik would save himself some grief to communicate here a little more often - but I have trusted him enough to send him my camera to provide him the support that RED should have been giving him. So far he always answers the phone when I call him - I suspect he recognizes my phone number - and he probably screens the rest of the calls right now because he doesn't have a concrete answer yet and needs to work.

I don't really know any more than all of you, I am going entirely on faith and the experience I have in personally dealing with thousands of customers and vendors over the past 25 years and developing a very good sixth sense about who is a scammer and who is not. But, in contrast to those who have just given a credit card (which has a fair amount of fraud protection built in) my faith has gone to the extent of sending him my $20K camera based on phone calls only - no contracts, waivers, etc.. All I have is a FEDEX receipt for a package shipped to his address in Boston on his FEDEX number.

I think he has a pretty large stack of faxed and emailed orders that may take 20 minutes or more each to deal with and although it doesn't seem like much, if he has as many orders as I think, it could be days taken away from finishing the mount. My feeling is he is an honorable guy, is guarding people's credit card numbers appropriately, will either honor the orders or give money back on the ones he has charged, and probably will extend the discount/freebie deadline up to the day he starts shipping and possibly a few days longer.

Red threw him a major curveball by changing the mount, and to me it was completely inappropriate on RED's part to not advise him and support his effort - given their knowledge that all of us here are counting on this solution and given that the major PR announcement RED made at NAB 2007 (and was featured on the RED website for months) makes it totally reasonable for us to expect their support in getting it done. If they wanted us just to buy PL mount lenses or be on our own then they should never have made the announcement. Or if they changed their minds they should have been very clear that they were pulling support for it so we could all have factored that into our plans and decisions. And before we get too critical of Erik's delays it would be good to remember that RED STILL hasn't delivered their DUMB mount for Nikon lenses - which had to be changed based on the new style front end of the 100 and up cameras - and of course they knew weeks or months ahead of time the full parameters of the design change.

Finally, I'm sticking my neck out here in terms of possibly annoying the powers that be - as I am making a product for RED too and it isn't smart for me to antagonize them, but my conscience forces me to point out that there is some shared responsibility here. I have made a couple of post that are potentially inflammatory - see my post in the Arri LDS thread: http://www.reduser.net/forum/showthread.php?p=146525#post146525

and as I said in that post: "this post is not intended as an attack but intended as a prod to go in a direction I/we think is important for RED to go - that is, enabling us to use the best tools in the most creative ways - isn't that what this is all about?" Or in the case of this mount, to expand the capabilities of this camera in ways that may not be feasible either physically or economically with the stock configuration. That is my intention here: to encourage RED to see that the CMOS S35 sensor, raw capture, datacentric storage and workflow, etc. is a brilliant paradigm that is actually furthered by using lenses that are optically excellent with built in motors and encoders for iris and focus, yet due to economies of scale, relatively inexpensive.

I have been promoting RED to my underwater customers as a near perfect solution when combined with the Birger mount - it provides better than F900 quality in a much smaller package (comparable to prosumer camcorders) yet the birger mount gives us inexpensive, extremely high quality optics with the same type of control we are used to with Fujinon and Canon broadcast lenses - all at a total package price not much greater than a tricked out prosumer camcorder and housing, or an F900 housing alone.

If we are stuck with traditional cine lenses, funky gears, or expensive lens motors - it just isn't the same kind of no-brainer for a lot of end users.

 

[Thom Steinhoff]

Aquavideo,

To set everyone's mind at ease, since he'll take your call, can you call him, see where he's at, and let him know that you will update us with whatever progress he reports to you?

By the way, thanks again for supporting him (and all of us) with your camera.

 

[LEON]

AQUAVIDEO,
Although I hardly know how to swim, I am pleased to read you
and share your point of view, maybe underwater is good for a healthy brain !

 

[Stephen Pruitt]

I may just be a dumb Ph.D., but I really believe that the Birger mount is going to exceed all of our expectations. I am, as well, extremely grateful for Aqua's loaner RED.

I want that mount so bad I can almost taste it.



Stephen

 

[Michael Hastings]

Talked to Erik

Talked to Erik

Aquavideo,

To set everyone's mind at ease, since he'll take your call, can you call him, see where he's at, and let him know that you will update us with whatever progress he reports to you?

Spoke to Erik at just before 5:00 our time. He answered on the second or third ring so I think my caller ID theory is correct. Anyway, no major news - he just said everything is in process, he hopes to have a schedule "shortly". RED has said they will send him a camera, should be there next week (so I can get mine back ... yeah!) I think I am supposed to get it with the RED version of the physical mount, and the industrial circuit board/software so I can test some lenses. (The 10-22 EF-S is my big need test for the underwater stuff, see below for the other lenses I have.) Positive news is the new circuit board will have the later/est version of bluetooth, so much greater range for remote control. He also said his girlfriend is going to come in for a few days to help with the stack of orders.

I mentioned that the natives were getting restless and wanted me to call and he suggested I go ahead and post this as it would be at least tomorrow before he would get a post out as he would have to read all of the new ones.

There weren't any definites as far as schedule, but he sounded less tired than when I talked to him last Friday. As hard as it is, I'm just operating on the "a watched pot never boils" theory, and didn't push for any more.

By the way, thanks again for supporting him (and all of us) with your camera.

Thanks for all the kind words guys, I'm counting on this thing as much as anyone.

As far as lens tests:

Besides the 10-22 EF-S, I have the f2.8 70-200L IS so I will test how IS works on telephoto; I also bought the 17-55 EF-S 2.8 IS which is sort of the EF-S version of the L series 24-70. I bought it because it should cover RED as well as my EOS40D and I find the IS to be really handy for candid no-flash shots with the DSLR (I will try to get a 24-70 to compare); the 28-135mm Kit lens that came with the EOS40D; I also have a Zeiss contax mount 300 F4 and 50 mm F 1.4 that I can use with a simple adapter and I am curious to try those as well.

Jorge from cinematechnic has a projector so we will try to make an adapter for the canon lenses and test them that way as well. If anyone has other lenses they would like us to test, let me know and we will see what we can do.

 

[Jay A. Kelley]

Ok well it's going to be a while.. I am guessing a month or more. I have made arrangements to get a loaner lens for the next month.

Oh well.. Glad you were able to get SOME information.

jay

 

[Thom Steinhoff]

Thank you so much for following up and I'm not sure where you are, but if you are in or around L.A. I can definately hook you up with a lot of lenses to test: 85 L, 200 1.8, 24-70, etc.

Thanks again, and definately looking forward to your results!

 

[Mark Pugh]

Awesome work. Thanks so much, Aqua. Can't wait for those test results. My bet is you'll love the 17-55 2.8. Really sharp and contrasty, no more breathing than a 24-70, and sharper, i think. And IS.
Does anyone have an EF 24-105 f4 IS they can loan to this man for a test. I've only had a bit of a play with one but it could be an awesome doco lens for day shooting (nice range and IS)???

 

[Joe Vinson]

I talked to "Erik" too, over at his creaky jungle shack.

The only thing I heard was, "Help me," then all these half-made lens mounts started flying around in the air and crashing into walls.

</lostreference>

Sorry, I just thought the "he only talks to me" thing was funny.

Seriously, thanks for checking, Aqua. And thanks to Erik for continuing to work despite an increasingly hostile customer base. I may not be so understanding once my camera gets here and I can't use it, but for now...

 

[Emanuel A.]

It's done! I just placed my 2nd mount reservation (and all my confidence) on Erik's hands 10 minutes ago (just in time -- 23:43 Boston local time). This is the last day predicted by Erik as far as the free remote control offer is concerned, do you remember?

http://www.reduser.net/forum/showthread.php?p=137243#post137243

 

[DAServices]

I'm in L.A. (South Bay), if you need some Canon glass to test;
16-35mm f2.8 L, 24-70mm f2.8L, 85mm f1.2 L II, 70-200mm f2.8 L IS, 100-400mm f4.0-5.6 L, and a Sigma 14mm f2.8 fisheye.

 

[DAServices]

I also can get the 24-105 f4.0 L IS, and the 35mm f1.4 L

 

[David Nardini]

thanks Mike / Aquavideo

thanks Mike / Aquavideo

... Erik would save himself some grief to communicate here a little more often ...

Hi Mike,

Thanks for your update & THANK YOU for the loan of your camera to Erik - no doubt this has helped us all :biggrin:

Sounds like support from RED has been slow until recently (they have been busy too !), but good news that they are more supportive now. Unfortunate that the PL mount re-design has had such a knock-on effect. As you point out, it has also affected RED producing their Nikkor dumb mount (with no ETA that I can find).

I do not doubt Erik's ability to produce the mount. As many have commented to date, it's the matter of COMMUNICATION that has not helped.

Finally, my biggest concern is around the future support for the Birger mount ... if the mount is bullet proof, then all well and good, if not, well logic tells me it may not be the smoothest road ahead (I sincerely hope I'm very wrong).

Cheers,

 

[Michael Hastings]

aqua is in Ft. Lauderdale, FL re: lenses. also birger support

aqua is in Ft. Lauderdale, FL re: lenses. also birger support

Finally, my biggest concern is around the future support for the Birger mount ... if the mount is bullet proof, then all well and good, if not, well logic tells me it may not be the smoothest road ahead (I sincerely hope I'm very wrong).

Cheers,

I'm in Ft. Lauderdale so I will try to get my hands on some of those other lenses locally. Primes like the 85 1.2L and the 35 1.4 maybe a little harder to come by (and my lens budget is shot right now) so may want to see about getting one of you to ship one when the time comes.

I think most of us will start with the zooms, but I think the L series primes are going to be a very important part of the arsenal as far as comparing use of these still lenses against the top quality cine primes - if we can show that the combination of birger control and say the 85 1.2 or the 35 1.4 are equivalent to a Zeiss cine then we can ease people's minds about using these lenses on a serious feature or commercial shoot.

As far as support, I'm not sure if you mean RED or birger. Regarding Birger, like with my company, you are basically dealing with the principals - i.e. the guys who actually design it, make it etc. so quality of support fluctuates - when things go crazy and you are overloaded it isn't very good but when things are more normal then you are talking right to the source and can get better support than you ever would from a Sony, Panasonic etc since you never get a chance to speak to the guys who really know the ins and outs of the product.

As far as RED, I think they are struggling with defining their own business model/identity right now:

.. and I hope everyone can at least get us credit for giving you guys what you ask for most of the time..

we cant do everything, specially if its to accommodate a competitors product that would assassinate something in our own product line.

This quote was regarding data support for Arri lenses but you have to wonder if that thinking is affecting birger support. I'm sure they have a large financial commitment to the PL lenses they had made for them and are concerned about how other mounts affect that. I think we need to convince RED, through respectful emails, commentary, etc. that it is going to work both ways: they may sell a few less PL lenses but they will sell more cameras because the total package is more in line with what we are comfortable investing.

For example, in my career I have invested larger sums of money in Betacams, linear edit suites (in 2001, I literally threw a $58,000 - in good 1989 dollars - DVE out the second floor window into a dumpster - because it was technologically outdated and worthless) but I can't just make these investments willy-nilly, and it is probably the same for most of you. (What happens if say Nikon charges an extra $5K and takes their D300 and adds an extra inch and a half on the bottom to create a high speed processing package and makes it record 30 fps - great lenses, autofocus, autoexposure, GPS, etc., etc.)

I, and I think a lot of you, are fairly comfortable spending $22K on the RED basic setup, but if you add $15K for 2 economy PL zooms (possibly converted from $1200 worth of sigma still lenses) or $50K-$100K for high end PL - all of which have a very limited resale market - then it isn't so comfortable.

But if I spend $1450 on a birger - which includes follow focus that would cost as much or more for manual lenses - and Canon lenses, I have a very powerful solution with little financial risk. I spent about $5000 on an EOS 40D and top quality lenses but to me it is almost money in the bank because I believe at any time in the next year I can put it on ebay in a 3 day auction and get 75% or more of my money back. (And by the way, I have a kick ass still photo setup - which I don't have with PL lenses - and since a lot of my movie photography is in exotic locations, I like having still capability as well.)

My point is I think there are 10 people that can step up from the HVX200 level to risk $22K and tie up another 5 or 6, for every one DP or producer looking to step down from the ARRI, Cinealta, Varicam worlds. I think if RED realizes this and supports us it will work out as well or better for them, and the worst case if it doesn't work out that way is they can say they really did bend over backwards to support their customers.

EDIT:
PS If the RED zooms are rehoused Sigmas, I am not knocking it. $6000 to rehouse a zoom is a very fair price - Century gets nearly $15K for rehoused Nikon and Canon lenses. The point is Birger gives us use of those lenses, PRESUMABLY with similarly smooth focus capability and remote control, without rehousing so 1/10 of the cost for the same optics due to the economies of scale in the still photo market.

 

[Alexander Christ]

AquaVideoRed206, LEON said it best: "...share your point of view, maybe underwater is good for a healthy brain !" Many thanks for your efforts and the update.