Big Change...

[Zhibo Lai]

Guess this means I'll have to take down the print out of the detailed system specs for Scarlet and Epic from my office wall. That gave me reason to come to work each day.

I'll take another guess
1. sooner release dates
2. even finer modularity, can switch out sensors within a brain, etc...
3. maybe even customisable sensor specs

 

[Jerrod Cordell]

The Soccer Moms are restless...

 

[David Rasberry]

brainburst and I have been advocating against 2/3" and for a 16:9 four/thirds size sensor for a lot of reasons but particularly due to a lack of 2/3" lenses that a) are reasonably priced and b) actually could resolve 3K as ALL existing were designed for less than 2K - most much less. Some highend 16mm lenses would handle 3K, but there isn't much out there and a lot more expensive than SLR lenses.

This sensor would be half the size of S35, so cost savings and more DOF but not so much that you couldn't manage it either way (whether you want shallower than 2/3" or greater than S35 for documentary, low light etc.) It could use the same larger pixels as the S35 chips, so better sensitivy/noise capabilities. The big advantage is you have already existing very high quality four thirds lenses from Olympus, Leica, sigma, etc. with a stop faster for the zooms (F2 instead of F2.8) and all were designed for digital sensors vs. those for APS-C and FF slrs which are only recently being upgraded/optimized on certain models.

Frame rates are more a function of the number of pixels so that shouldn't change by just going to the same number of larger pixels on a larger chip base, and it shouldn't really change the custom processing chips they are probably making as (like say Canon's DIGIC chips) since those are probably designed to work across all of the sensor sizes.

I am hoping this is a possibility and some of the internal specs upgrades (like possibly a switch to four/thirds since it is actually just the same technology as the S35 chip with fewer pixels - same micron size and same or easier spacing) may not have to cause a delay because at this point a lot of the lead time is just doing final mechanical design with prototypes to make sure all connectors are in the right place and all of those modules fit together, then ordering all of the parts, connectors (minor changes in the exact type of LEMO needed, not necessarily number of pins but orientation or mounting type or whatever, can add months to the delivery time.) Not to mention getting factory up to speed on final designs, because on these cameras - with much higher anticipated volume, tighter mechanics and probably custom chips, you have to get it perfect before you say GO. You can't go back and make circuit or mechanical changes like you could with the larger, looser, and lower volume REDONE.

If you want to read the entire discussion on four/thirds vs. 2/3" look at my other posts or brainburst's.

I am a strong advocate of a four/thirds solution too. I really like that format. It fills the hole between 2/3" and S35 just perfectly.
But it is a brand new format and cine quality zooms will have to be developed from the ground up for it or you will have to use 35mm format cine lenses, 16mm glass won't cover it. There is a good selection of excellent quality still glass available though.

There is still plenty of market space a for 2/3" -16mm equivalent too. The reason 2/3" HD glass costs so much is that it takes a lot higher MTF to get the resolution on a small sensor. I doubt many 16mm lenses will resolve a full 3k either. On 2/3" that translates to somewhere around 120 LPMM vertical resolution. I was looking at a lens test on Canon's top of the line 35mm format f1.4 50mm macro online. It only resolved around 38 LPMM.

I can see building an F23 killer with a $2500 B4 2/3" Scarlet body and a $35k Canon EFP premium HD lens.:biggrin:

 

[Bing Bailey]

maybe we skip mysterium x and go straight to monstro at 16 stops

 

[Catalin LEESCU]

Great

Great

You have to love these guys, if only for the attitude. But there's the gear as well

 

[Stephen Pruitt]

I hate to say it, but this new announcement, following so quickly on the heels of the "big announcement" on the 13th just seems incredibly unprofessional to me. If Apple, Sony, or any other major technology company tried to pull a big stunt like this, they'd be laughed at unmercifully. Sure technology changes, but it doesn't change that much in a week and a half! Building up everyone's expectations like RED did on the 13th, only to say that "you ain't seen nothing yet" isn't a strategy that engenders confidence on the part of anyone. Rather, I think it suggests a real lack of confidence on the part of those inside RED as to what direction the market and the underlying technology is headed.

I'm disappointed.

Stephen

 

[Alex Coelho]

Rather, I think it suggests a real lack of confidence on the part of those inside RED as to what direction the market and the underlying technology is headed.

I'm disappointed.

Stephen

I'm not disappointed but I do understand your frustration. At this point, I just want the camera out; however, if they plan on making it better, then I'm all for it as long at the delivery dates stay about the same. Hopefully, Red will go all the way with Scarlet and offer similiar functions as the Red One. I know Red One owners will complain but we need to move past the Red One into a new design at a even more incredible price point.

 

[David Rasberry]

I hate to say it, but this new announcement, following so quickly on the heels of the "big announcement" on the 13th just seems incredibly unprofessional to me. If Apple, Sony, or any other major technology company tried to pull a big stunt like this, they'd be laughed at unmercifully. Sure technology changes, but it doesn't change that much in a week and a half! Building up everyone's expectations like RED did on the 13th, only to say that "you ain't seen nothing yet" isn't a strategy that engenders confidence on the part of anyone. Rather, I think it suggests a real lack of confidence on the part of those inside RED as to what direction the market and the underlying technology is headed.

I'm disappointed.

Stephen

What companies other than RED keep you up to date on pre production R&D and give you input on the process as well? Personally I find this all quite exciting, I can't imagine what the guys that are actually working on this stuff are feeling. They must be running on pure adrenalin and a hefty dose of endorphins. Probably sleep for a week once its all put to bed.

 

[Corrado Silveri]

Let's wait some days...

 

[Jannard]

I hate to say it, but this new announcement, following so quickly on the heels of the "big announcement" on the 13th just seems incredibly unprofessional to me. If Apple, Sony, or any other major technology company tried to pull a big stunt like this, they'd be laughed at unmercifully. Sure technology changes, but it doesn't change that much in a week and a half! Building up everyone's expectations like RED did on the 13th, only to say that "you ain't seen nothing yet" isn't a strategy that engenders confidence on the part of anyone. Rather, I think it suggests a real lack of confidence on the part of those inside RED as to what direction the market and the underlying technology is headed.

I'm disappointed.

Stephen

Do you REALLY want us to start acting like the "other" companies? Really? Get a few more to share your opinion and we can certainly arrange that.

Why not wait to see what changed before a judgment? Just a thought.

Jim

 

[CocoBermudez]

Do you REALLY want us to start acting like the "other" companies? Really? Get a few more to share your opinion and we can certainly arrange that.

Why not wait to see what changed before a judgment? Just a thought.

Jim

short temper?

 

[Jeremy Neish]

Do you REALLY want us to start acting like the "other" companies? Really?

Jim

Um... in a word NO!

Keep it up Jim.

 

[Jannard]

short temper?

No... smiling here. Just surprised that one of our customers would really want us to start acting grown up.

Jim

 

[CocoBermudez]

No... smiling here. Just surprised that one of our customers would really want us to start acting grown up.

Jim

good..i think the frustrations come from people just wanting to touch, caress and smell something tangible...other than the RED ONE

 

[Lauri Kettunen]

maybe we skip mysterium x and go straight to monstro at 16 stops

This is somewhat related to my guess. When Jim says everything, the first thought is, what does everything mean to him. Jim has said Red is mainly about the sensor program and Redcode. Furthermore, he mentioned they have made a breakthrough. So, this sounds like it's either the sensor program or Redcode. If it's everything and worth of making a new annoucement already Dec 3rd, my guess is Mysterium X can be forgotten and we can go directly to Monstro. As Jim added it's a change for good, perhaps that means with the cost of Mysterium X. Of course, everything is just speculation, but we'll see. Quite fun though.

 

[Stephen Pruitt]

Mr. Jannard, I certainly don't want you to start acting like Sony. But I do expect that the story should remain relatively consistent from one week to the next. Obviously, I'm a big fan. I've got two of your wonderful pups sitting in my basement right now. We shot a great little movie with them. We have two more features in the works right now. I am certain that both of them will be shot with RED products. BUT, I still don't think that lets you off the hook when you say that "everything has changed AGAIN."

However, as you say, I need to hear more about the specifics. It might not have anything to do with the cameras at all.

But, since we're here chatting, I am one of the folks who wants to see a 5K Monstro chip in the Epic in the S35 size. And I want it before I start shooting my next feature in January 2010.



Stephen

 

[diskojerk]

Interesting the announcement comes on the heels of the new 2/3 and S35 chips finishing manufacturing. They were probably bench testing and got much better results than expected.

 

[Steve Sherrick]

I hate to say it, but this new announcement, following so quickly on the heels of the "big announcement" on the 13th just seems incredibly unprofessional to me. If Apple, Sony, or any other major technology company tried to pull a big stunt like this, they'd be laughed at unmercifully. Sure technology changes, but it doesn't change that much in a week and a half! Building up everyone's expectations like RED did on the 13th, only to say that "you ain't seen nothing yet" isn't a strategy that engenders confidence on the part of anyone. Rather, I think it suggests a real lack of confidence on the part of those inside RED as to what direction the market and the underlying technology is headed.

I'm disappointed.

Stephen

Stephen, I'm not sure I understand where you are coming from on this one. RED has always had a policy of everything is subject to change. You had to buy into this when you got the Red Ones and it will continue with future products. Sometimes this can be frustrating, but more often than not it's actually better that Red rethinks things, makes improvements and doesn't get stuck in the mud.

Scarlet and Epic are still in the design phase. So things are going to change. We just happen to be let in on the conversations. If this was Sony, we wouldn't know anything until they wanted us to know.

 

[Steve White]

I have so much 'sympathy' for Jim & Co. when chided for reporting progress.

I have the same problem with my supervisor. Every time I report nifty ways of improving signal to noise, system control, software interface and data processing, she groans... probably because she doesn't have enough time to read the resulting documentation, not because she doesn't appreciate functional improvements.

 

[Bing Bailey]

Do you REALLY want us to start acting like the "other" companies? Really? Get a few more to share your opinion and we can certainly arrange that.

Why not wait to see what changed before a judgment? Just a thought.

Jim

jim don't you know your supposed to say no lets just make the faster plane. forget that we discovered how to do teleportation today. we'll bring that in when we amortize those faster planes. please don't ever be like other companies. everyone knows what they are getting into with red.