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  • Hey all, just changed over the backend after 15 years I figured time to give it a bit of an update, its probably gonna be a bit weird for most of you and i am sure there is a few bugs to work out but it should kinda work the same as before... hopefully :)

Best practice for exposing Dragon?

Michael Kromschroeder

Michael Kromschroeder

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I got my Dragon last Friday. Now I am testing and figuring out, what is the best way to expose the Dragon properly.

How do you guys do a proper exposure on the Dragon?
 
Depends on what you want. To me it's the same as for mx, expose to the right if you want it clean, but do not fire the RGB over flow lamps. Expose to the left if you want more caracter and "grain" but do not trigger the underexpo goalpost.

The difference on the MX and dragon that I find is that things can look, really blown out/unusable at 800 iso on the touch screen from just looking at the picture on the touch or so but then when you dail down the iso you realize that it's all there... same goes the other direction when bringing the iso up to 6800ISO things comes out of the dark but picture still looks very pleasing even in 6k. pixel 1:1.
 
I usually expose Dragon to 800ISO and work/output at 400ISO with minimal FLUT adjustment for any compensation, and always use a waveform monitor for best accuracy.
 
Björn Benckert said:
Depends on what you want. To me it's the same as for mx, expose to the right if you want it clean, but do not fire the RGB over flow lamps. Expose to the left if you want more caracter and "grain" but do not trigger the underexpo goalpost.

The difference on the MX and dragon that I find is that things can look, really blown out/unusable at 800 iso on the touch screen from just looking at the picture on the touch or so but then when you dail down the iso you realize that it's all there... same goes the other direction when bringing the iso up to 6800ISO things comes out of the dark but picture still looks very pleasing even in 6k. pixel 1:1.
Click to expand...


I can agree with this Bjorn. I have found myself just setting the ISO down to 400 or 320 to bring the image back to a more viewable brightness. I am using raw viewing more and more too, instead of the RG3 or RG4.
 
More meat

More meat

I also use 800 as my "working" ISO reference and like Roger often drop the setting to 400 in processing.

If I had one specific note: if you don't like noise, the Dragon allows you to open up another stop or two without ugly clipping.

On MX, ignoring the top end was a risky proposition and IMO, one of the reasons DP's raised on film cursed RED when they were looking for a nuanced blow out. I've seen talented colorists passably mimic the film negative shoulder characteristic to get decent results, but it was sub-optimal.

Even with Dragon, I still think careful management of the shoulder (transition to clip) in post is a crucial element of grading RAW capture data into the intended imagery. The big change is that there is so much more real "meat" 4+ stops over key that the colorist can deliver virtually any roll off characteristic that the DP desires. With MX footy (especially high key exteriors) you sometimes used up most of your adjustment range just killing the hard clip and shoving it around further got ugly quick. With good exposure choices MX has plenty of range, but for extreme exposure circumstances or highly stylized "looks" Dragon provides a huge palette at capture.

Sure, that greater highlight handling will be an asset on set, but to me the real "wow" moments come in grading - especially the better chroma fidelity below key and the ability to manipulate the roll off to taste using real picture data.

Cheers - #19
 
My early findings on some serious testing.

1. Rating at 250 and push processing looks amazing, clean and gives you a wide DR.
2. Rating at 800 and pull processing the image gives you less DR and more noise in the shadows.
3. I worry a lot less about blown highlights on Dragon but always check clipping with false color and stoplights.
4. 6:1 seems like a good compression ratio but yields 14 minutes on a 128gb card
5. Black shade if you move the shutter more than two or three steps away from wherever it was set.
6. Histogram is your friend.
7. Sensor likes light even more than MX did. More light, less noise, everyone's noise threshold is different.
8. I'm rating at 250 a lot of the time and push processing in post when needed.
9. Raw view ain't what it used to be, the new raw view is, who knows? Meant to look like other cameras raw or log files.
10. The dragon sensor handles backlit sources about 100 times better than MX. (You know what I mean, I'm exaggerating at bit)
11. If you care about shadow detail rate lower, if you like a bright kinda videoish looking image rate at 800.
12. If you've read this far, thanks for sticking with me.

battistella
 
David Battistella said:
My early findings on some serious testing.

1. Rating at 250 and push processing looks amazing, clean and gives you a wide DR.
2. Rating at 800 and pull processing the image gives you less DR and more noise in the shadows.
3. I worry a lot less about blown highlights on Dragon but always check clipping with false color and stoplights.
4. 6:1 seems like a good compression ratio but yields 14 minutes on a 128gb card
5. Black shade if you move the shutter more than two or three steps away from wherever it was set.
6. Histogram is your friend.
7. Sensor likes light even more than MX did. More light, less noise, everyone's noise threshold is different.
8. I'm rating at 250 a lot of the time and push processing in post when needed.
9. Raw view ain't what it used to be, the new raw view is, who knows? Meant to look like other cameras raw or log files.
10. The dragon sensor handles backlit sources about 100 times better than MX. (You know what I mean, I'm exaggerating at bit)
11. If you care about shadow detail rate lower, if you like a bright kinda videoish looking image rate at 800.
12. If you've read this far, thanks for sticking with me.

battistella
Click to expand...

David's in the house! Good to see you again. I'm looking forward to getting my Dragon!
 
@Blair, @ David

Do either of you vary your iso settings for bright sunlight/dark, cloudy day?
 
Thanks bob,

you will love it.

A few more to add to the above list.

13. Simple s curves are back.
14.color fidelity is stunning. Stunning.
15. Noise. What noise?

Have to come up with new best practices with this sensor so this is a welcome thread.

Battistella
 
Elsie N said:
@Blair, @ David

Do either of you vary your iso settings for bright sunlight/dark, cloudy day?
Click to expand...

Nope,

I just watch the stoplights and adjust iris/shutter accordingly. I like it at 250/320 and I am finding there is no penalty for that rating. Nice thick negatives.

Battistella
 
David Battistella said:
Nope,

I just watch the stoplights and adjust iris/shutter accordingly. I like it at 250/320 and I am finding there is no penalty for that rating. Nice thick negatives.

Battistella
Click to expand...

My normal way of shooting is the same as Blair and Bjorn. But the idea of pushing the image in post sounds intriguing. I think I'll do some testing with that. I don't remember that as part of the monumental discussion on the Mark L. Pederson "shoot like film" thread. Your method sounds like it could create some special imagery.
 
Elsie N said:
My normal way of shooting is the same as Blair and Bjorn. But the idea of pushing the image in post sounds intriguing. I think I'll do some testing with that. I don't remember that as part of the monumental discussion on the Mark L. Pederson "shoot like film" thread. Your method sounds like it could create some special imagery.
Click to expand...

its very simple. If you hit the sensors with more light (rate lower) then there is less noise, as you increase gain (push images) you start with less noise, you end up with less noise than an image you lit and rated at 800. If you lightened rate at 800 you give the sensor less light so when you go the other way (pull) the the noise is there but you basically just hide it because you are asking those pixels to go dark.

You can safely trust all the real pros RED picked out to do the testing. I'm just a dweeb bending it in every direction to see what comes out the other end.

I've already hit my post limit for this month but wanted to share what I've seen.

Im diving back into silence for a while, but happy shooting everyone!

dragon is great. Graeme is a genius.


battistella
 
Björn Benckert said:
The difference on the MX and dragon that I find is that things can look, really blown out/unusable at 800 iso on the touch screen from just looking at the picture on the touch
Click to expand...

I also expose to the right to get a clean image, but it always looks like it's "overblown" on the touch screen, but looks good in the Histrogram. I'm tired of explaining it over and over to people who never used a RED and telling me it's overblown, and they don't know how to read the histogram.
Anyway to fix the look of the touchscreen? Is lowering the ISO the only solution?
I tried lowering the brightness, doesn't help, and I can't seem to find any other options for the touch screen monitor.
 
ISO 250 (this is amazing) when I can;) when your budget is limited ISO 800 is a good compromise.


Guys has anyone tried to shoot at 100 ISO?
Since the camera only allows 250 as a minimum, have used about -1 flut in the look?
I'm just curious if anyone has already tried it.
 
I'm at the moment writing a concise document on this and I just demonstrated these exposure techniques at Reducation yesterday. Two in my group had "their minds blown". While I don't think what I'm doing anything miraculous it is indeed the exposure logic and general technique used on several of feature films shot on Red. Though based on this sampling most never have seen exposure done this way.

It is completely fascinating seeing how everybody works.

With exposure there's a subjective answer, which can vary, and there's a technical answer. Then there's a very precise technical answer if you are looking to absolutely nail exposures all of the time within 1/10th of a stop.

There's no right or wrong way to expose in reality. There's only the right or wrong way for any given scene.

More soon. I promise I've been working on something special for us Dragon riders.
 
There is a difference between judging a monitor image with a LUT at an ISO in the metadata and a metered ISO with Dragon apparently. I would say a 800 metered exposure is somewhere between 400~500 on a monitor. Kind of disappointing as it really just misrepresents the sensitivity of the sensor. It's 2/3 of a stop off it's advertised sensitivity at least depending on your noise threshold.
 
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