Basic Audio Problems

[Bruce Allen]

ME66 NTG-2 ahahahaa... those are NOT good mics. At all.

Seriously, don't use less than a 416. Even my short student film made for $300 in South Africa used a 416.

If you are indoors, use a Schoeps MK41 plus CMBI battery amplifier:
http://www.schoeps.de/E-2004/cmbi.html

It's not a shotgun but it's awesome. Used on many great films.

I'm not sure that a good shotgun exists that runs off battery power. Please correct me if I'm wrong. I think they all run off phantom or T-power and you'll need something that provides that power.

Sam Roberts, the best option if you don't want external boxes is to try Andrew's hack (use phantom power from one channel while recording to another).

Bruce Allen
www.boacinema.com

 

[Steve Sherrick]

ME66 NTG-2 ahahahaa... those are NOT good mics. At all.

Seriously, don't use less than a 416. Even my short student film made for $300 in South Africa used a 416.

If you are indoors, use a Schoeps MK41 plus CMBI battery amplifier:
http://www.schoeps.de/E-2004/cmbi.html

It's not a shotgun but it's awesome. Used on many great films.

I'm not sure that a good shotgun exists that runs off battery power. Please correct me if I'm wrong. I think they all run off phantom or T-power and you'll need something that provides that power.

Sam Roberts, the best option if you don't want external boxes is to try Andrew's hack (use phantom power from one channel while recording to another).

Bruce Allen
www.boacinema.com

Oh, I know, they are pretty terrible mics. But they have battery power, so they are possible an option for some people, that's why I mentioned them. Yes, 416 is a workhorse, as is the Schoeps, and the Senn MKH60. But there is no mic that I know of that runs off phantom power built into the microphone itself.

So, try Andrew's hack, try external pres/phantom power sources, etc until a solution comes along that addresses this issue. But don't let it be the only thing that keeps you from using the camera, because I really think you're missing out. I'd rather use temporary workarounds and get the mostly positive attributes of the system.

 

[Bruce Allen]

Forgetting future upgrades and such, has anyone detailed the instructions on how to make the line input work?

I'm imagining you need an outboard mixer that has phantom power and levels... and then sending it into the red after that - with some specified audio settings.

Yes. Also timecode.

A video from those tutorial video guys and/or a written recommendation spec would be great though.

The updated Build 16 manual now has clearer written recommendation RE line levels (vs the Build 15 manual), so check it out. It also explains what the resistors in their cables do to bring audio levels to a more sane place.

"For line inputs used with a RED supplied XLR to mini-XLR adaptor cable, full scale (FS) level
will be +18 dBU (6.5 Volts RMS). To achieve 14 dB of input headroom set the nominal input
to a level of +4 dBU (1.3 Volts RMS).
For line inputs used without a RED supplied XLR to mini-XLR adaptor cable, full scale (FS)
level will be +8 dBU (2.0 Volts RMS). To achieve 14 dB of input headroom set the nominal
input to a level of -6 dBU (0.48 Volts RMS)."

I think you cannot change line input level on RED at the moment. It is locked. The audio level setting in the menu doesn't affect it.

EDIT: Hey, they added a note RE phantom power too!
Note: The phantom power supply within the RED ONE may contribute too much
noise when paired with low sensitivity microphones. In this case it is preferred
to use a bat tery powered microphone or an external phantom power source.

That's cool, at least people can read this and make their own decision before making a camera buying decision. That's far more fair for new buyers.

Oh, I know, they are pretty terrible mics. But they have battery power, so they are possible an option for some people, that's why I mentioned them. Yes, 416 is a workhorse, as is the Schoeps, and the Senn MKH60. But there is no mic that I know of that runs off phantom power built into the microphone itself.

So, try Andrew's hack, try external pres/phantom power sources, etc until a solution comes along that addresses this issue. But don't let it be the only thing that keeps you from using the camera, because I really think you're missing out. I'd rather use temporary workarounds and get the mostly positive attributes of the system.

Steve, agree 100%.

Bruce Allen
www.boacinema.com

 

[Andrew M.]

So, try Andrew's hack, try external pres/phantom power sources, etc until a solution comes along that addresses this issue. But don't let it be the only thing that keeps you from using the camera, because I really think you're missing out. I'd rather use temporary workarounds and get the mostly positive attributes of the system.

The phantom power from ch4 cable got simplified lately.
Looks like you don't need 2 X 47 uF and 100 uF capacitors. Apparently these are already inside the RED audio board.
However .1 uF capacitor 100 Ohm resistor and the rest and small inductor coil is a must.


Harry Quan made few more cables like this and all components are in the connector enclosure, so no external box is needed if you have small parts.

Actually RED should make this cable like they make the xlr-XLR cable.

Here you have audio sample (Stereo) recorded using this cable.

http://www.reduser.net/forum/showpost.php?p=223759&postcount=8

I am talking 5' away from the mike with low voice.
The only noise you can hear is the computer fan 10' away and RED lowest RPM fan.

I still can't figure out how to shut the RED fan completely. I did try all modes and at minimum there is very low RPM turning fan going on in the best case.

Anybody succeeded to shut it completely off?

I know, for the first minutes or two it is off in silent mode but then starts turning again.

 

[Sam Roberts]

ME66 NTG-2 ahahahaa... those are NOT good mics. At all.

Seriously, don't use less than a 416. Even my short student film made for $300 in South Africa used a 416.

If you are indoors, use a Schoeps MK41 plus CMBI battery amplifier:
http://www.schoeps.de/E-2004/cmbi.html

It's not a shotgun but it's awesome. Used on many great films.

I'm not sure that a good shotgun exists that runs off battery power. Please correct me if I'm wrong. I

I have a 416 that I've used for years, I also have the Sennheiser MZA 14TU power supply which I have never had to use. Will this power supply give me the phantom power needed to input the RED from an onboard 416?

http://www.sennheiser.com/sennheiser/icm_eng.nsf/root/products_microphones_accessories_powersupplies

As for self powered mics after a quick search I see Sony makes one, the ECM-674 anybody know anything about it?

 

[Bruce Allen]

I have a 416 that I've used for years, I also have the Sennheiser MZA 14TU power supply which I have never had to use. Will this power supply give me the phantom power needed to input the RED from an onboard 416?

http://www.sennheiser.com/sennheiser/icm_eng.nsf/root/products_microphones_accessories_powersupplies

As for self powered mics after a quick search I see Sony makes one, the ECM-674 anybody know anything about it?

Ah yes T-power... so you have a T-power 416 and you normally use a phantom-to-T-power adapter, but with the Red you're going to use that T-power battery box, right?

Sounds fine, go ahead... turn off phantom power from Red camera and you should be good to go.

I've never heard of the Sony mic. I have nothing against Japanese mics (Sanken, Audio Technica) but I wouldn't take the risk on sound quality without a glowing review from a trusted source, methinks? Try before you buy.

Bruce Allen
www.boacinema.com

 

[Sam Roberts]

Ah yes T-power... so you have a T-power 416 and you normally use a phantom-to-T-power adapter, but with the Red you're going to use that T-power battery box, right?

Well I have always just plugged the mic straight into the XLR phantom power input at the front of the camera.

So yes I guess now I'll need to go mic to battery powered T power supply box to RED XLR to mini XLR into a line input. I hate having to attach ONE MORE thing to the body of the camera, but until they get this problem fixed I guess I don't have a choice.

I've used Sony's ECM lapel mics for interviews for years and the quality is good. Maybe their self powered ECM shotgun might be OK. I'll try the Sennheiser phantom power box first.

thanks Bruce.

 

[Bruce Allen]

Woah, don't thank me yet. Is your 416 the P48 (Phantom powered) model or the older T-power model? I was assuming it was the T-powered one since you were talking about powering it with a T-power box.

Sounds like you might be wanting to power a Phantom-powered 416 with a T-power box. Which won't work. Be careful. Figure out what kind of mic you have first.

If you have T-power 416, you can use your use your MZA 14 TU powering box.

If you have Phantom-power 416, use Andrew's cool cable hack of getting phantom power from ch4 while recording to ch1. Or buy a Sound Devices MixPre. Costs $700 or so and also gives you REAL POTS (ohmygod). Or you could get the phantom version of the Sennheiser box you have (MZA 14 P 48 U). But if you're buying a new box to stick to your camera, might as well fix the lack of pots at the same time.

Bruce Allen
www.boacinema.com

 

[Sam Roberts]

Hi Bruce. I have an MKH 416 P48 which I've had for 15 years. It's a great mic. I've never had one problem with it ever. As far the the T power box goes, the details are lost in the mists of time. Like I said I never used it because I always had a camera with a phantom power supply. I just assumed it came with the mic. Could be one of the sound guys I've worked with over the years left it in my kit by mistake.

Anyway I'll check out those options you mentioned. I'll do a search on Andrew's cable idea.

 

[ericyoung]

Phantom and T aren't compatible - and seem to remember that if they are plugged in one way, damage can occur to the mic or the phantom power. Can't remember which way though!

 

[Bruce Allen]

Yes, hopefully that is averted. I've been told to definitely not to connect T-power mic to phantom power.

Bruce Allen
www.boacinema.com

 

[Sam Roberts]

Not to worry I put the Tpower back on the shelf and went over to Sound Devices to have a look. Nice little Prepro mixer although still a bit big at 5 1/2 X 3 1/2 inches. I don't know where I'd put it on the camera. They do have a simple phantom power supply unit MP-1 but size-wise it's the same as the mixer but around $300 less. I suppose I could get on of those Portabrace Mixer slings and tuck it in there for hand held, but, lots of wires to get snagged on things.

 

[Joseph Ward]

Stupid question I know but..

If its a hardware problem?
Wouldn't it be possible for Red to just replace bad audio hardware for existing owners and start making new Red Ones with new improved ones?

 

[Steve Sherrick]

Stupid question I know but..

If its a hardware problem?
Wouldn't it be possible for Red to just replace bad audio hardware for existing owners and start making new Red Ones with new improved ones?

It will not be easy to replace hardware, and it also means current owners would have to take their cameras out of the field to send to Red. I'm sure the impact is big, even for cameras that have not been shipped yet. It may just be one of those things that Red One users have to work around. But at least there are workarounds, and no one is dead in the water as far as audio is concerned. Inconvenienced, yes. Unable to get a nice audio recording with Red, no.

 

[Meryem Ersoz]

These workarounds aren't cheap. I paid $500 for my MixPre many years ago (it currently retails for $665 at B&H, the MM-1 is $349), and you drop from 4 channel audio to either one (MM-1) or two (Mixpre) useable channels. If you don't already own these devices, then you will have to buy them.

I have my MixPre bungee corded to my top rods, for lack of a better placement. It looks and feels totally ghetto-rigged and limits the mobility of the camera. Works, though. But it definitely puts limits around my ability to use the camera.

For the money--not to mention the weight reduction--I would even pay up to have RED 'fess up, if it is a hardware problem, and then offer something like an Audio Enhancement or Audio Upgrade, where I pay to have the hardware fixed so that the onboard audio works the way that it is supposed to.

It would be worth it, if they could do it for less than the cost of a MixPre....

Then my MixPre would be an option that I choose, rather than a requirement that I can't get by without...

The silence around audio and the recommendations that the audio is "just fine" because we can get line level recordings that are better than an F900-- those are just a bummer.

If RED was saying something more along the lines of "hey, our audio is only 4 firmware fixes old, and we have big plans for enhancements that will allow our world-class image to be matched by our world-class audio, just give us a chance to get caught up" -- now THAT would be reassuring.

THAT would sound like the RED camera company that I thought that I knew...not this insistence that "you can get outstanding sound as long as you close your eyes and pretend not to notice the parts that aren't working..."

 

[Paul Hazlett]

I have had great sucess with on board audio very clean very nice, but I always have a sound guy and use line level. Even if you have a smaller mixer
I think its worth it to run sound through it instead of trying to use 48 volt from the camera. at least for now.

 

[Joel Kaye]

It will not be easy to replace hardware, and it also means current owners would have to take their cameras out of the field to send to Red.

If Sony shipped the EX1 and the phantom power acts like it does on RED every EX1 would have been shipped back and Sony would have repaired them. That's just a fact. JVC took back thousands of HD-100's to fix the SSE issue. Did that cost JVC a fortune? Yeah, but they took care of their customers.

RED knew about this problem before they recalled the first 100 cameras. They could have fixed this problem 1000 cameras ago and chose not to. RED takes a credit for doing the right thing early and often. Phantom power is defective and clearly should be a warranty repair. If it doesn't impact many people then just the people who care will send their camera back and that won't burden RED at all. Or people really do care, in which case RED should fix it because people really do care.

Either way there should be an opportunity to send the camera in to get 48v working as advertised. (And yes, clean 48v phantom power was advertised as part of what this camera was intended to include. It was never a "we hope we can do it" feature like 120FPS at 2K)

 

[Steve Sherrick]

If Sony shipped the EX1 and the phantom power acts like it does on RED every EX1 would have been shipped back and Sony would have repaired them. That's just a fact. JVC took back thousands of HD-100's to fix the SSE issue. Did that cost JVC a fortune? Yeah, but they took care of their customers.

RED knew about this problem before they recalled the first 100 cameras. They could have fixed this problem 1000 cameras ago and chose not to. RED takes a credit for doing the right thing early and often. Phantom power is defective and clearly should be a warranty repair. If it doesn't impact many people then just the people who care will send their camera back and that won't burden RED at all. Or people really do care, in which case RED should fix it because people really do care.

Either way there should be an opportunity to send the camera in to get 48v working as advertised. (And yes, clean 48v phantom power was advertised as part of what this camera was intended to include. It was never a "we hope we can do it" feature like 120FPS at 2K)

Fair enough. But we do need an official statement that the hardware is in fact faulty and that it would need to be replaced in order to get clean power. Then they would need to decide on how to proceed with fixing it. It won't be easy because Red is a small company, and it also won't be easy from red owners perspective either because it could mean taking the camera out of commission for a little while. But until we have the official word, I want to reserve judgement here.

I also think comparing to other cameras is a natural thing to do, but then it's easy to counter with things like, yeah but look at how bad the Sony PD-150's audio was and to a certain extent the 170 wasn't that great either. Either way, it is fair to ask that we get what was advertised. I have no argument there. It really comes down to clarifying exactly what the problem is, and then determining a course of action. If there is something in the firmware that is still not quite right yet and they are tweaking that to make it right, that's a whole lot different than determining that the hardware is bad and it will never improve.

I'm sure we will know in due time.

 

[Andrew M.]

Fair enough. But we do need an official statement that the hardware is in fact faulty and that it would need to be replaced in order to get clean power. Then they would need to decide on how to proceed with fixing it. It won't be easy because Red is a small company, and it also won't be easy from red owners perspective either because it could mean taking the camera out of commission for a little while. But until we have the official word, I want to reserve judgement here.

Hardware is not faulty, if you press for it they will just remove phantom power from the list of features.

Also current limiting on the output is just the factory option.
RED has clear specs that you should not take more then so much on the power outputs and if you take 1/100 of the amp more and you blew up something it is your fault.
To fix the phantom power deficiency by replacing 2000 boards is out of question.
Maybe newer boards are already fixed.
One way to fix it in firmware only, is to add the hiss noise inverted to all the other channels.
I did try it and it works great. It could be done in the camera when they create the QT proxy.

The good thing about adding inverted noise to all channels is that it cleans the background noise of the internal amplifier as well. It is post clip action so it will not take real time CPU cycle away from image/video processing.
It is done when QT proxies are created after you stop camera recording.
It may not work on all versions of the audio boards since all 4 channels have to have very similar amplifiers characteristics on it. Any difference and it will not work as well. I am lucky since my camera has almost identical 4 channels on it.

The best if RED will come up with phantom power cable that you could plug in to the AUX power jack at the back of the camera. This will enable you to use all 4 channels and have phantom power supplied to all your mikes.

 

[Joel Kaye]

Hardware is not faulty

If the board design wasn't screwed up in camera we'd not have MiniXlR cables with resistors. It's just common sense that stuff should be in camera and people should be able to whip up their own cables using standard wiring.

They should build a box ala ET that converts MiniXLR to XLR and has phantom power on board and sell that for $100 or so. That's a happy medium solution. No recall and they cover their costs but it's not a profit center.