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  • Hey all, just changed over the backend after 15 years I figured time to give it a bit of an update, its probably gonna be a bit weird for most of you and i am sure there is a few bugs to work out but it should kinda work the same as before... hopefully :)

Basic Audio Problems

joelnet said:
If the board design wasn't screwed up in camera we'd not have MiniXlR cables with resistors. It's just common sense that stuff should be in camera and people should be able to whip up their own cables using standard wiring.

They should build a box ala ET that converts MiniXLR to XLR and has phantom power on board and sell that for $100 or so. That's a happy medium solution. No recall and they cover their costs but it's not a profit center.
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Great suggestion. Might also have to go with redesigned audio board. Not a big or expensive component.

It seems like Red is focused on the big scoop - replacing 35mm film. With the new sensor anouncement, they are well on the way. It's sexier and more fun to be leading an image revolution. I just hope that once build 16 is in production release, they will put some resources into fixing the awful audio section. As I have said before, there's a huge market for EFP, maybe larger than the Hollywood wannabees for whom Red is the Holy Grail.

I love my Red and will keep it in the arsenal for years to come. I just want the sound to work as well as every other camera that is out there today.
 
joelnet said:
If the board design wasn't screwed up in camera we'd not have MiniXlR cables with resistors. It's just common sense that stuff should be in camera and people should be able to whip up their own cables using standard wiring.

They should build a box ala ET that converts MiniXLR to XLR and has phantom power on board and sell that for $100 or so. That's a happy medium solution. No recall and they cover their costs but it's not a profit center.
Click to expand...

I understand this but maybe phantom power and surge protection on the interfaces are on the most usual professional cameras as a standard but RED is not a usual camera.

For my job the mini xlr are actually much better than large one and the box a la ET is out of question.
The connectors they have chosen are the best for my job, they couldn't pick it better.

I am confident that once the image processing is refined they will catch up with the second priority items as well. I agree with James, the audio/interface board is probably the least expensive out of all other ones in there but to replace 2000 of them is kind of expensive.

Adding extra features on it, say audio pods, single hd-sdi 4:4:4 or 12 bit HDMI out at 1080p calling it board v2.0 and charging owners of audio board v 1.01, 50% for upgrade, is the nice way out.

This is a common practice in the telecom industry.
If they screw up something, they fix it a bit in v1.01 and then they fix all the problems in v2.0 and charge for it 3K. However for existing owners of v1.01 they sale it on cost at $1.5K etc.

Mean time there are few ways around all this.
 
I just got back from working on "The Widow's Might" with James Burgess. I bought the special Red adaptor cables from Trew Audio with the 1k resistor. We did tests with 0db tone out of my mixer at +4 line level into my Fostex PD4 DAT. Set the mixer 0 tone to land at -12 on the DAT as a digital reference tone. I pass through my DAT to utilize the digital metering ballistics and the additional limiter, that way when I'm recording single system to the camera only I am still confident of my levels. Using the new resistor loaded cables I attach my breakaway XLR to the camera with strain relief bungee cinch cords. The line up tone ends up about four ticks below the reference line on the RED. I only use LINE LEVEL input. We tested the recorded signal and it lined up perfectly on the FCP at minus 12 digital. I tend to print hot (a habit from the old Nagra days) I had the dialogue living up around minus 12 with no problems, everything sounded rich and fat. So we were confident with the new resistor loaded cables. I also pay special attention to the return level so it exactly matches my mixer only levels, we used the 0 level on the headphone output, you may have to play with the level to get an exact match. Just pay attention to all the rules of good gain structure and use good equipment. Good sound doesn't happen by itself - just like good picture.
 
Stuart English said:
Others have a different experience. With line level inputs the performance is at least as good as an F900 or a Varicam.
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I agree.... line level input is just fine. I've done alot of shooting going line in. When we just got the Red we even shot with a fostex harddiskrecorder on the side just in case. But ended up using the audio from the camera which is just fine for 95% of the time. But if you want the best audio .. you better skip 48kHz. The Red's mic pre's however are pretty crappy... and I won't even touch Red's phantom:ohmy: .
 
Martinez said:
I agree.... line level input is just fine. I've done alot of shooting going line in. When we just got the Red we even shot with a fostex harddiskrecorder on the side just in case. But ended up using the audio from the camera which is just fine for 95% of the time. But if you want the best audio .. you better skip 48kHz. The Red's mic pre's however are pretty crappy... and I won't even touch Red's phantom:ohmy: .
Click to expand...

Can you clarify your statement about 48khz?
 
Once we added a Sound Devices 302 mixer and fed our RED line level our audio improved greatly, a world of difference over feeding the mics directly in to the RED. While this camera can certainly be run bare-bones, it really takes quite a bit of tried-and-trued professional accessories to really put together a first-class production package. Lenses, matte-boxes, filters, sturdier heads/tripods, monitors, cables, etc. Guess you gotta pay to play but, it sure is getting expensive - lol.

P.S. Elizabeth call me, I stay busy and don't mind being bugged, particularly by a fellow RED enthusiast.
 
Can you run mic or line level into RED with external phantom power and no resistors in the cable? Or are resistors required on all RED miniXLR connections?
 
Heres a little problem or not I ran in to today. When we set the camera up to mic in everything runs fine. When I set the camera to line in the tone we feed out of the mixer at 0 doesnt move the audio meters on the camera above the middle dotted line. Is this normal or am I missing something. Is it possible to zero the tone that is at zero on the mixer to 0 on the camera???? Is there some AGC on the camera when set to line in???

ON line or mic set up, the audio sounds fine just cant find an explanation for not being able to zero tone to the camera in line set up. Yes yes I changed all the levels on the camera audio channels to try to change the level. To no avail.

Build 16 up graded today. didn't check as close when I was on build 15.

Also have the biggest hisssssss when using the 48v to power a 48v mic through the camera. Almost to the point of not even being able to use it as a scratch.
 
I've also had the overpowering hiss while recording on build 16 using phantom power. Was just for reference, but basically useless quality.
 
A hint for you T powered guys. Just get a PSC 48p to 12v T barrel adaptor. Its about 2 1/2 inches long and perfectly translates 48 phantom to T power. (which was developed to work with Nagras) Its totally passive - no batteries - no muss - no fuss. hint #2 pick up a used T powered 416 for around $500 and a $40 dollar PSC barrel and you're in business.
 
Teddy Hallaron said:
A hint for you T powered guys. Just get a PSC 48p to 12v T barrel adaptor. Its about 2 1/2 inches long and perfectly translates 48 phantom to T power. (which was developed to work with Nagras) Its totally passive - no batteries - no muss - no fuss. hint #2 pick up a used T powered 416 for around $500 and a $40 dollar PSC barrel and you're in business.
Click to expand...

With this setup you still need phantom power to drive the Mic, right? I actually have a T powered 416 and a 48v to T adapter - but that doesn't help me with RED's 48v hiss. The mic itself has been great and used on many projects.

I finally rigged a little breakout box that converts miniXLR to XLR and adds 2 channels of phantom power, plus a Y adapter so I can capture one Mic to 2 tracks at different level settings. I'm powering it from RED's aux power. Kinda cool. Still need to do some good noise tests to make sure it's quiet enough.

If I could avoid the breakout box with a small inline barrel adapter that provided 48V or T Power then that might be better. I just couldn't find that product.
 
I'm totally not a sound guy. My question is simple and hopefully I will get a simple answer. When does one use the 'Microphone' and when the 'Line' input? (You see my level of ignorance regarding sound?)

At the moment does the microphone have to be battery operated? Can anyone tell me the settings on the RED One to use to get decent audio using just a microphone (no external recording devices).

Thank you kind sirs.
 
Heya,

Anytime you have a microphone, you want to select the channel (port) it's plugged into and click it on. On the right side, it should be set to microphone.

If you have a microphone without a battery, you will want to go back a menu from Rec Enable, and select the 48v setting for the particular channel (port) you have the microphone plugged into.

If you have a double AA or similar battery (depending on the mic), leave this setting off.

If you were plugging in a direct line from a mixer or other similar device, you would select "line" for the channel (port) you are plugged into and leave the 48v selection off.

Hope this helps,

ATF
 
ATF said:
Heya,

Anytime you have a microphone, you want to select the channel (port) it's plugged into and click it on. On the right side, it should be set to microphone.

If you have a microphone without a battery, you will want to go back a menu from Rec Enable, and select the 48v setting for the particular channel (port) you have the microphone plugged into.

If you have a double AA or similar battery (depending on the mic), leave this setting off.

If you were plugging in a direct line from a mixer or other similar device, you would select "line" for the channel (port) you are plugged into and leave the 48v selection off.

Hope this helps,

ATF
Click to expand...
Oh yes it helped a lot. Thanks for keeping it simple.
 
rameshjai said:
I'm totally not a sound guy. My question is simple and hopefully I will get a simple answer. When does one use the 'Microphone' and when the 'Line' input? (You see my level of ignorance regarding sound?)

At the moment does the microphone have to be battery operated? Can anyone tell me the settings on the RED One to use to get decent audio using just a microphone (no external recording devices).

Thank you kind sirs.
Click to expand...

ATF's answer is correct, except that the 48V option on the Red is currently introduces lots of noise on any audio channel it is turned on. This will be fixed in a forthcoming board upgrade, but is currently unuseable, so you should either use battery operated mics or the line option for clean sound for now.

There is one further option which is to derive the 48V from one of the 4 audio inputs which you are NOT using for sound! But this involves making up some cables. See the thread:
http://www.reduser.net/forum/showthread.php?t=13815&highlight=phantom+channel
 
1-Bit Audio

1-Bit Audio

Is there going to be an 1-Bit Audio recording in the new boards or is that a firmware/software question?:mellow:
 
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