Basic Audio Problems

[Mark L. Pederson]

unfortunately, I hear even louder what he (and RED) are NOT saying. When threads like this go on and on and the only response is to point up the meager things that the audio section does competently (record line level signals cleanly), it only serves to connote that RED is not going to do anything at the hardware level to correct the obvious defects in the audio input section.

well ... having been here since DAY ONE - I would have to say that if you know your "Red History" you would know of MANY things Red did not comment on and then one day - BAM they show up.

If you seriously think you can assess what RED is really doing or not doing based on if they comment or not on a REDUSER forum thread ... well .... that's pretty silly.

Now, being the "glass is half-full" guy I am - I would say to you - you still see the Phantom Power in the menu, right? Well, if Red didn't think they could get it right - don't you think they would just remove the option?

And yes, I REALLY want all the audio features you do.

I actually EXPECT Red to put a bit of focus on the audio features after bugs get worked out of Build 16.

I am just trying to say - I don't think you can pass a verdict on audio in the Red One yet.

 

[Steve Sherrick]

Elizabeth, have you had a chance to use the camera yet? If you were close by, I'd invite you over to do some tests so you could make an informed decision. I know it can be tough hearing about these kinds of things while trying to decide whether to purchase it or not, but I think most would agree that even despite the issues that still exist, including audio the camera is really starting to take shape and is capturing some amazing images. I can tell you first hand that the camera I got back a few months ago is not the same camera I have right now. So, that shows you these guys are working behind the scenes to solve as many of the remaining issues they can and they are also implementing some new features along the way.

I can't even imagine how hard it must be to make a camera that will be used by so many people with differing opinions about what they want and don't want. How do you keep everyone happy?

Anyway, as I said I think there are valid concerns being expressed and I know the workarounds may not be everyone's cup of tea, but until someone from Red comes out and says that phantom power will never work right, I'm going to hold out hope that they are working on some solutions.

 

[Elizabeth Lowrey]

well ... having been here since DAY ONE - I would have to say that if you know your "Red History" you would know of MANY things Red did not comment on and then one day - BAM they show up.

If you seriously think you can assess what RED is really doing or not doing based on if they comment or not on a REDUSER forum thread ... well .... that's pretty silly.

Now, being the "glass is half-full" guy I am - I would say to you - you still see the Phantom Power in the menu, right? Well, if Red didn't think they could get it right - don't you think they would just remove the option?

And yes, I REALLY want all the audio features you do.

I actually EXPECT Red to put a bit of focus on the audio features after bugs get worked out of Build 16.

I am just trying to say - I don't think you can pass a verdict on audio in the Red One yet.

Offhollywood, I greatly respect your knowledge and posting record here, but I think you're being a bit too defensive and huffy.

I haven't passed a verdict, nor have I definitively stated that their comments (or lack thereof) on REDUser are the sole indicators of their intentions re the audio. But the unquestionable relative silence on these issues is a departure from their norm and is a cause for some concern about the lengths to which they are willing to go to fix the audio. It's that concern, that anxiety, that I've attempted to express here.

You would agree with me, would you not, that they (Jim) also has a history of publicly acknowledging and stating here their commitment to fixing various problems long before those problems were in fact resolved or improved? Whether it was simultaneous outputs or lens data (still not implemented but coming) or a bad PL lens mount or PC support or higher capacity SD cards or the release of the SDK or the black hole sun or rolling shutter or what have you, all were issues that were acknowledged with pledges of improvement early on and not met simply with statements of what the camera could already do, which has been the consistent tact (when there is response at all) about these audio issues, issues which, by estimation of those far more knowledgeable in engineering matters than I, are almost certainly HARDWARE issues. In this respect, the vibe out of RED about the audio is much closer to that which accompanied the many complaints about deficiencies in the RED grip hardware, with the shoulder pad/dovetail having a caveat tacked onto its product description ONLY AFTER many had purchased it with the understandable expectation that it would function properly as a tripod mount since it -- duh -- featured a tripod interface and was initially advertised as suitable for that use.

Putting all cards on the table, the obvious tension here lies in the fear that these audio defects will call for a hardware replacement or repair on a product that is already 2000 deep in circulation and which, from the hints we've gleaned, does not have a very big profit margin. Recalls on 2000+ cameras is not something any manufacturer would relish, so I understand what's at stake. Complicating matters is the fact that the next 2,000+ cameras are also locked in at the 17.5K price point, so even if hardware changes were implemented tomorrow, there is no way to immediately recoup the expense of the revisions and of the recall.

But make no mistake about it, unless and until RED announces specific limitations to its audio section, which would only affect the warranty for future sales and not for the over 4,000 already sold or locked in via reserve, the audio section as it exists today is defective as it would not pass without objection in the industry/is not fit for the ordinary purposes for which it was intended. (Yes, I have a law degree and maintain my membership in the Florida Bar, so I know a little about the UCC.) And that's why I think that the longer RED defers this issue, the bigger the problem will become.

For me, personally, the issue is much simpler: my reservation will be coming up this month. I expect my first contact within a couple of weeks. At that time, I will have 30 days to decide whether this camera and related support purchases are worth the $27K or so I will have to spend. For me to answer that question intelligently, I must absolutely have an answer to the question of whether the audio functionality, quality, and compatibility of this camera will at least equal what I could expect from an HVX, EX-1, or any other low-end hi definition camera with a purported 4-channel audio input. That means I must know whether I can plug a standard-pinned condenser mic with a standard XLR cable and a standard XLR-miniXLR converter plug directly into the camera and acquire audio at 16 bit/ 48 Khz or greater resolution without hums or unreasonable noise. It's really that simple. If I can get assurances now that that will be the case, even if it takes a while to get there, then I will happily shut my mouth and open my wallet.

 

[Elizabeth Lowrey]

Elizabeth, have you had a chance to use the camera yet? If you were close by, I'd invite you over to do some tests so you could make an informed decision. I know it can be tough hearing about these kinds of things while trying to decide whether to purchase it or not, but I think most would agree that even despite the issues that still exist, including audio the camera is really starting to take shape and is capturing some amazing images. I can tell you first hand that the camera I got back a few months ago is not the same camera I have right now. So, that shows you these guys are working behind the scenes to solve as many of the remaining issues they can and they are also implementing some new features along the way.

I can't even imagine how hard it must be to make a camera that will be used by so many people with differing opinions about what they want and don't want. How do you keep everyone happy?

Anyway, as I said I think there are valid concerns being expressed and I know the workarounds may not be everyone's cup of tea, but until someone from Red comes out and says that phantom power will never work right, I'm going to hold out hope that they are working on some solutions.

No, unfortunately I have not. There is one RED owner in my area, and he indicated he was willing to let me get some hands on time in his studio, but, so far, he hasn't called back with specific offer of day and time. I hesitate to nag since I've already called him twice and PM'd him once. (Craig, if you're reading this, call me.:biggrin: )

I share everyone's admiration for what the camera represents and for what it can do on the visual side. That's not even minutely in contention. But I come from a video background, and I'm part of that large contingent of users attempting to move up from cameras like the DVX and HVX. I'm certain there are workarounds for the existing shortcomings in the RED audio, but as a predominantly solo shooter with a desire to keep budget, gear, weight, and manpower as low as possible, I absolutely require my camera to be able to capture decent audio from direct microphone feeds. And so this issue is literally "make or break" for me, no matter how foreign that sounds to people who weight image so heavily that audio is an afterthought or who come from the film world where audio is always acquired extrinsically to picture.

 

[Mark L. Pederson]

Offhollywood, I greatly respect your knowledge and posting record here, but I think you're being a bit too defensive and huffy.

Not huffy at all - that's the internet.

For me to answer that question intelligently, I must absolutely have an answer to the question of whether the audio functionality, quality, and compatibility of this camera will at least equal what I could expect from an HVX, EX-1, or any other low-end hi definition camera with a purported 4-channel audio input. That means I must know whether I can plug a standard-pinned condenser mic with a standard XLR cable and a standard XLR-miniXLR converter plug directly into the camera and acquire audio at 16 bit/ 48 Khz or greater resolution without hums or unreasonable noise. It's really that simple. If I can get assurances now that that will be the case, even if it takes a while to get there, then I will happily shut my mouth and open my wallet.

I think that is very fair.

I will be shocked if don't happily shut your mouth.

You will love the camera.

 

[Meryem Ersoz]

From what I understand, Red's audio problems are a permanent hardware problem that can only be fixed with new electronics being installed in the body.

This is the conventional reduser wisdom/rumor, I have heard it repeated many times -- that is why I would like a straight answer from someone actually representing RED, even if the answer is as simple as "this issue requires further investigation and we are hoping that we can fix it, but the purported rumor may indeed prove to be true."

As Offhollywood points out, RED excels at descending upon us with unexpected surprises -- but it is precisely this quality which makes the silence on this audio issue so disconcerting.

On one hand, they are making miracles occur daily. Miracles. So why the lack of response on something that, by comparison, should be relatively easy to address--maybe not easy to fix, mind you, but it shouldn't be something that falls into the category of they don't know--unless, of course, they don't know. But even that is something *I'd* like to know.

 

[James Brundige]

1. Does phantom power provide clean, true 48V power to the microphone?
2. What is the S/N ratio?
3. Is there a built in limiter?
4. Are there easy ways to control audio levels?
5. Does the mic pre have a neutral quality, or is it adding character?
6. Is 24bits, truly 24bits?
7. Is the circuitry isolated enough from some of the internal components of the camera?
8. What issues can be traced to hardware and what issues can be traced to firmware?

.

Great summary of what is needed, Steve. I think a hardware solution will be required. It seems that epic will have XLRs and probably decent preamps to go with - buttons and knobs I hope. Maybe an add on box can do this for the Red One.

 

[Bruce Allen]

I am just trying to say - I don't think you can pass a verdict on audio in the Red One yet.

Yes you can. For example, with the PD150, the verdict is that Sony screwed up the audio on the PD150 and then offered an upgrade later. So when renting the PD150 you had to be careful. And when Sony offered the PD170 people knew what to watch out for, so when some PD170s had audio problems, these were more quickly caught and identified by the end user.

Similarly, with Red, the verdict last time I checked was that they messed up the audio on their camera. If they fix it then the verdict becomes that Red messed up the audio on their camera then fixed it a while later. But the first part is still true. And you'll need to watch out for un-fixed cameras if renting.

Specifically, what is messed up:
1. phantom power
2. no kind of hardware limiting, plus instruction manual shows whoever is in charge of sound at Red has weird idea of how sound works - EG:
"Due to the high precision and dynamic range of 24-bit sampling, the RED-ONE camera does not provide input stage limiters or an AGC. The digitized data can be considered as high dynamic range RAW sound information that is complimentary to the high dynamic range RAW video information." ?!?!
3. the inputs are just plain odd - they seem to be too hot and thanks to the lack of gain circuitry Red had to put a resistor in their cables to compensate?
4. post workflow is confusing. Is sound still mis-labeled as 32-bit floating point when importing into the Avid? How do we check sound on a PC?
5. does timecode really, actually synch perfectly with all industry-standard devices? For PAL as well? There seem to be problems still being encountered.
6. ergonomics are bad (no pots?!?)

Based on this, how can you not have a verdict that the DVX100 beats the Red in audio capabilities overall?

It would be different if there was a disclaimer saying "AUDIO NOT FULLY WORKING YET" but last time I checked Red.com I didn't see that.

Again, I love Red but hope they fix these issues for Epic and Scarlet.

Bruce Allen
www.boacinema.com

 

[James Brundige]

I share everyone's admiration for what the camera represents and for what it can do on the visual side. That's not even minutely in contention. But I come from a video background, and I'm part of that large contingent of users attempting to move up from cameras like the DVX and HVX. I'm certain there are workarounds for the existing shortcomings in the RED audio, but as a predominantly solo shooter with a desire to keep budget, gear, weight, and manpower as low as possible, I absolutely require my camera to be able to capture decent audio from direct microphone feeds. And so this issue is literally "make or break" for me, no matter how foreign that sounds to people who weight image so heavily that audio is an afterthought or who come from the film world where audio is always acquired extrinsically to picture.

At this point, the Red is more of a crew camera, aimed at the film crowd. I hope they recognize the broadcast / doc market is huge. It won't be hard to make a decent audio section a solo shooter can operate, so I assume it will happen. I agree it would be nice to hear a real commitment in that direction.

 

[Mark Allen]

Forgetting future upgrades and such, has anyone detailed the instructions on how to make the line input work?

I'm imagining you need an outboard mixer that has phantom power and levels... and then sending it into the red after that - with some specified audio settings. A video from those tutorial video guys and/or a written recommendation spec would be great though.

 

[Andrew M.]

Yes you can. For example, with the PD150, the verdict is that Sony screwed up the audio on the PD150 and then offered an upgrade later. So when renting the PD150 you had to be careful. And when Sony offered the PD170 people knew what to watch out for, so when some PD170s had audio problems, these were more quickly caught and identified by the end user.

Similarly, with Red, the verdict last time I checked was that they messed up the audio on their camera. If they fix it then the verdict becomes that Red messed up the audio on their camera then fixed it a while later. But the first part is still true. And you'll need to watch out for un-fixed cameras if renting.

Specifically, what is messed up:
1. phantom power
2. no kind of hardware limiting, plus instruction manual shows whoever is in charge of sound at Red has weird idea of how sound works - EG:
"Due to the high precision and dynamic range of 24-bit sampling, the RED-ONE camera does not provide input stage limiters or an AGC. The digitized data can be considered as high dynamic range RAW sound information that is complimentary to the high dynamic range RAW video information." ?!?!
3. the inputs are just plain odd - they seem to be too hot and thanks to the lack of gain circuitry Red had to put a resistor in their cables to compensate?
4. post workflow is confusing. Is sound still mis-labeled as 32-bit floating point when importing into the Avid? How do we check sound on a PC?
5. does timecode really, actually synch perfectly with all industry-standard devices? For PAL as well? There seem to be problems still being encountered.
6. ergonomics are bad (no pots?!?)

Based on this, how can you not have a verdict that the DVX100 beats the Red in audio capabilities overall?

It would be different if there was a disclaimer saying "AUDIO NOT FULLY WORKING YET" but last time I checked Red.com I didn't see that.

Again, I love Red but hope they fix these issues for Epic and Scarlet.

Bruce Allen
www.boacinema.com

Bruce, I posted way around on all this problems.

However you mentioned two interesting items.
No pods, yes, you had to go deep in to the menus before build 16, now you can program "radio" button and mike adjustment pops up, well it is not a pod but joystick then.
Interesting remark of yours about 32-bit float.
I use export from QT and I see some miss-labelled '32 Byte audio sample' info but I can force it in export options in to the 24 bit. If I don't do it the Premiere will not like the audio.

Can you elaborate on your experience and miss-labelling?

 

[Hans von Sonntag]

At this point, the Red is more of a crew camera, aimed at the film crowd. I hope they recognize the broadcast / doc market is huge. It won't be hard to make a decent audio section a solo shooter can operate, so I assume it will happen. I agree it would be nice to hear a real commitment in that direction.

Yes, Red is a crew camera. We use it in both worlds, commercials and docs. For doc shoots we use it in 3K 2:1 mode with a Canon 8-64 S16 lens. Although this lens is not havier than a standard ENG lens the whole camera is very heavy (at least as heavy as a tricked-out F900) and bulky. You need at least a crew of 3 (soundman, cameraman, producer/assistant) not only to handle the equipment, pulling focus, recording sound, etc... but also wrangling data. Wrangling data gets often totally underestimated.

TC sync works flawlessly. We use Red (build 15) as slave and the SD 744T as master. After each boot of the camera syncing has to be redone. We don't use Red's sound capabilities, since beeing tethered is for the soundman as well the cameraman not attractive and constrict the work of both considerably. Syncing in post - Avid and FCP only, Premier cannot read embeded TC in soundfiles yet - is just one click and more than convenient.

Nevertheless a working 48V phantom power and microphone IN would be nice. A sleek little stereo mic attached to the fronthandle would be great. Using an external microphone/line adaptor makes the already heavy and bulky camera even more complicated and havier.

We did some testing with wireless/diversity line in and monitor out and found that all this extra gadgets make the Red too cumbersome and almost impossible to operate from the shoulder.

When I read some of the post and complaints (which are for sure based on deep knowledge) I get the feeling that one or the other didn't take a Red in a real world production in the field yet. TC synced to an external soundrecorder solves most problems and makes the work for the crew much more convenient and brings better results. IMO the golden route.

RedOne is not ENG or can be compared to standard EFP camera systems. Horses for courses as they say.

Hans

 

[Bruce Allen]

When I read some of the post and complaints (which are for sure based on deep knowledge) I get the feeling that one or the other didn't take a Red in a real world production in the field yet. TC synced to an external soundrecorder solves most problems and makes the work for the crew much more convenient and brings better results. IMO the golden route.

100% in agreement with you Hans. That's how I work.

But when I recommend RED to my friends to buy or rent (some of whom use in-camera audio), I need to carefully go over all of the things that don't work properly with the camera, or else they will say "Bruce, you recommended me a camera with audio that is totally screwed up".

You need at least a crew of 3 (soundman, cameraman, producer/assistant) not only to handle the equipment, pulling focus, recording sound, etc... but also wrangling data. Wrangling data gets often totally underestimated.

I agree.

TC sync works flawlessly. We use Red (build 15) as slave and the SD 744T as master.

Yes, that combo works and is good enough for me. Others using reputable gear (Denecke etc) seem to give problems?

After each boot of the camera syncing has to be redone.

Sucks, doesn't it?

Nevertheless a working 48V phantom power and microphone IN would be nice.

Of course! What if you bought a Varicam etc and found that they didn't bother to make those basic features work? You'd be pissed.

RedOne is not ENG or can be compared to standard EFP camera systems. Horses for courses as they say.

Hans

Totally agree with you, but then you have guys like Gibby running around talking about it being the ultimate EFP camera and confusing all of my friends who lurk on Reduser. Then you read the fine print and realize he hasn't exactly rushed out to sell his other cameras yet...

Bruce, I posted way around on all this problems.

However you mentioned two interesting items.
No pods, yes, you had to go deep in to the menus before build 16, now you can program "radio" button and mike adjustment pops up, well it is not a pod but joystick then.
Interesting remark of yours about 32-bit float.
I use export from QT and I see some miss-labelled '32 Byte audio sample' info but I can force it in export options in to the 24 bit. If I don't do it the Premiere will not like the audio.

Can you elaborate on your experience and miss-labelling?

Andrew

I agree, there are ways around the problems. But they involve buying extra gear or are cumbersome. If you program the radio button to mic adjustment, then you lose the ability to use those buttons for image control, right? And it's still not as good as a pot. So that's why I say DVX100 is overall better than RED at audio - it doesn't require workarounds.

If there was a note on RED.com detailing the audio problems and the workarounds required, that would be cool but instead everyone seem to find this out after they buy the camera.

RE: audio, I tried it early on without success. According to MichaelP, apparently the new (Beta 16 ?) version of Red Alert has a "Avid Audio Compatbile check box" in you can select to repack the 32bit audio into 24. But I am on a PC most of the time so can't really check this. This still seems like a design flaw to me - the audio is 24bit and should be stored that way. But if their weird method works without quality loss, that's okay. And again, a system that requires you to hit a check box and is only currently available on a Mac is just not competitive if you compare it to the workflow of a DVX, F900, etc.

Oh and looks like they removed the stupid "we don't need limiters or gain controls because we record HDR audio" paragraph from the Build 16 manual (it's in the Build 15 manual). And they actually documented the (very weird and obviously incorrect) audio input levels and explained what the resistor in their cables does. That's good, it's a start, and I have higher hopes for Epic and Scarlet.

Bruce Allen
www.boacinema.com

 

[Hans von Sonntag]

Bruce, I totally agree with you but frankly tell your friends to open their eyes. When I saw Red the first time (over 2 years ago) I instantly realised that it was all but not an EFP workhorse:

- All conectors on the dumb side. That's and odd place. Cables sticking out like a hedgehogs quills is far from lean. Even a breakoutbox will be a compromise at an extra expense: Bulky, heavy, ugly, the camera turns into a squared box.

- Mini-XLR. Wie don't have to talk about this.

- Full 35mm sized sensor. You never get focus nailed as an one-man-show. (unless you're Gibby...)

- No automatic exposure

- No quickplate, nor shoulder pads ala Sony

The list can go on an on.

It was/is plain obvious to everyone: The Red is a brilliant step in camera development but surely not made for EFP. If you want that kind of stuff go Sony or Panasonic. They produce brilliant workhorses in this regard. And yes, Gibby's praises for Red being an EFP camera is surely misleading. I'm not saying thats impossible but a F900R is much more convenient, faster and reliable and capable to produce excellent pictures. It surely outperformes Red when used in 2K mode.

Nevertheless should Red work on audio but its obvious that the RedOne will be crippled in this regard until EOL. You can call it a miss-design what ever but if you want sound its perfectly there - to the highest level: Get a TC capable sound recorder.


Rant over.

Hans

 

[Bruce Allen]

Hans, you are so right...

Bruce Allen
www.boacinema.com

 

[Andrew M.]

Hans, I respect your point of view but I use camera on my shoulder and under water and I will not say that F900 is more convenient. I just can’t do with Sony what I can do with RED, convenience aside.

I agree that for audio, if you do not have knowledge of the trade it is bit tricky, but that is why we have this and few other discussion boards. The fact is that these discussion boards do have very bad searching capabilities, so if you don’t read it regularly to find anything here, is a pain. At minimum we should have AND and OR clearly explained in the searching submenu.

I use audio (with the phantom power from RED) and I can nail the focus quite good now.
I do not see any difference in audio quality using phantom power from inactive ch4 and using line level using external phantom power and preamp.
As to the focus, well I am lucky, I use wide angle lenses most of the time so focus there is much more forgiving then 40mm and up. I agree to nail the focus on 65mm at 4K it takes a lot of experience, I am getting there.

Like any other equipment, it takes time to get used to it.

 

[Meryem Ersoz]

- Full 35mm sized sensor. You never get focus nailed as an one-man-show. (unless you're Gibby...)

Get a TC capable sound recorder.


Rant over.

Hans

I don't know why a rant is merited, when we are only requesting what was already promised in the specs and in the menus supplied by RED...if you feel a need to rant, a far more fitting place for it would be over in the 4.5K surprise thread, where people can't seem to express the proper gratitude for a new feature, not in a thread that's pondering over whether promised features and specs will be enabled.

Or not.

I'm grateful for this camera, I want to be able to use it in ALL of our higher-end EFP applications for which I produce professional video, not a narrow segment.

Moreover, saying that you never get focus nailed as a one man show is flat-out wrong. Not to mention condescending. Focus is not a problem, and 1080 monitoring, a feature that was *never* promised but has been enabled before the audio issues are resolved or even clarified, need I point out, only makes this easier.

I have a TC enabled Edirol R4Pro. I have a Sound Devices MixPre. I use them where it is appropriate and practical.

But I'm sick of people saying that recording dual sound is the solution. It's not a solution for me. There are some situations where I record double system.

But the bottom line is that it's not practical for every application that the camera IS practical for, period.

If that doesn't apply to you, then you have nothing to complain about, rah for you. But that's one less national TV broadcast credit that I can add to my RED reel, and frankly, that is too bad for me and too bad for RED.

Being advised to ad more gear to an unwieldy load is not fixing the problem.

Fixing the problem is fixing the problem.

**rant back atcha**

 

[Joel Kaye]

Being advised to ad more gear to an unwieldy load is not fixing the problem.

Fixing the problem is fixing the problem.

Ditto. You can run this camera yourself for a number of types of shoots. I just like to have ambient audio when I'm out shooting. I can call out notes to myself if nothing else. I'm going to try building Andrew's cable. If that gets me one channel of audio it'll help a lot.

 

[Sam Roberts]

This is all very disconcerting. There is no WAY I will ever record double system sound. Can anyone recommend a good shotgun mic with built in phantom power.

 

[Steve Sherrick]

This is all very disconcerting. There is no WAY I will ever record double system sound. Can anyone recommend a good shotgun mic with built in phantom power.

A lot of shotgun mics have battery power. Not always the same results as phantom power, but they can certainly aleviate any phantom power issues you may be having. Rode NTG2, Sennheisser ME66, etc all have a battery power option.