Basic Audio Problems

[Craig Bowman]

I get the tone sound on channel 1 and 2 with no mic plugged in at all. Plugging in the supplied Red mini to xlr doesn't change this. It is really evident if I turn up past the default 32dB. But it's definitely there when I play back the .mov files at 32dB. It's a problem for me. Is there a fix?

Congratulations. You have fried your audio board. How can you tell? It puts out the exact tone you're hearing. How is this accomplished? If you plug in the supplied Red mini to xlr and its not the new cable with the built in resistors and the camera has power to it, its almost certain you'll toast the channels that are enabled.

 

[Ty Ford]

I have a Red and a SD 744T. I can conduct a test for you guys, just give me the parameters and I will try to accommodate.

Thanks Steve, Rob may feel differently because it may have bearing on his decision to buy, but that would be like you taste-testing ice cream for me.

Regards,

Ty Ford

 

[Steve Sherrick]

Thanks Steve, Rob may feel differently because it may have bearing on his decision to buy, but that would be like you taste-testing ice cream for me.

Regards,

Ty Ford

I like mint chocolate chip ice cream. You?

I hear what you're saying. I was thinking of some basic tests that would compare the preamps noise levels. But even in my best efforts it would be tough to make a definitive analysis for people because there will be variables that can come into play.

 

[Greg M]

Congratulations. You have fried your audio board. How can you tell? It puts out the exact tone you're hearing. How is this accomplished? If you plug in the supplied Red mini to xlr and its not the new cable with the built in resistors and the camera has power to it, its almost certain you'll toast the channels that are enabled.

What do you base this on?

I used the old cable for 6 months, and I'm not eating toast for breakfast.

 

[James Brundige]

Others have a different experience. With line level inputs the performance is at least as good as an F900 or a Varicam.

It appears to be a -10db input with a resistor in the cable, with mic levels and phantom power unusable. A hack solution, much inferior to the cameras you mention, not to mention most prosumer cameras on the market. I run a Sony EX1 as a audio system for the Red, which creates quite a silly workflow. Feature companies are used to two system setup, but broadcast producers are used to sync sound attached to picture, and for good reasons. There is no reason the Red can not achieve this - it's far easier than the image software and hardware they have created.

For these reasons, I am using the red only for B-roll on my documentary projects for TV. I would like to be able to use it for the whole show, but the audio workflow is too clumsy. The camera clearly comes from a film, double system, background, but if it is to penetrate the broadcast market, this needs to change. I gather it's being worked on, and assume the results will be as good as the rest of the camera.

Please give us +4 quality preamps with real XLR inputs. It seems the Epic is headed that way. Hopefully the Red One can be retrofitted.

 

[Steve Sherrick]

It appears to be a -10db input with a resistor in the cable, with mic levels and phantom power unusable. A hack solution, much inferior to the cameras you mention, not to mention most prosumer cameras on the market. I run a Sony EX1 as a audio system for the Red, which creates quite a silly workflow. Feature companies are used to two system setup, but broadcast producers are used to sync sound attached to picture, and for good reasons. There is no reason the Red can not achieve this - it's far easier than the image software and hardware they have created.

For these reasons, I am using the red only for B-roll on my documentary projects for TV. I would like to be able to use it for the whole show, but the audio workflow is too clumsy. The camera clearly comes from a film, double system, background, but if it is to penetrate the broadcast market, this needs to change. I gather it's being worked on, and assume the results will be as good as the rest of the camera.

Please give us +4 quality preamps with real XLR inputs. It seems the Epic is headed that way. Hopefully the Red One can be retrofitted.

I agree that audio is not on par with the amazing visuals the camera produces, but I am very surprised by your current workflow with audio and Red. Instead of the EX1, you could simply have a small 2 channel mic preamp attached to the camera or tripod or belt and be running line level directly to the camera. Have you found a reason not to run line level in? Is it possible your camera has a problem? Just curious more than anything else. Not trying to knock your ways, as you are clearly an experienced shooter. It's time to really put my SD 744 to the test with the Red. I've just been waiting for some cables to come in. They should be here today or tomorrow.

 

[James Brundige]

I agree that audio is not on par with the amazing visuals the camera produces, but I am very surprised by your current workflow with audio and Red. Instead of the EX1, you could simply have a small 2 channel mic preamp attached to the camera or tripod or belt and be running line level directly to the camera. Have you found a reason not to run line level in? Is it possible your camera has a problem? Just curious more than anything else. Not trying to knock your ways, as you are clearly an experienced shooter. It's time to really put my SD 744 to the test with the Red. I've just been waiting for some cables to come in. They should be here today or tomorrow.

I have a nice Wendt mixer which can power mics and feed a line out, but the post workflow is the barrier for me. As I understand it, you must edit with proxies and match back the picture elements later - Neither Red Alert or Red Cine supports audio.

For commercials or film projects with real crews and post budgets, the double system is normal. For long form docs, it's a pain in the ...

Make sure you use the Red cables to get into the camera - they are unique, with a resistor built in. Which is part of my reluctance to trust the audio chain - I've used a +4 balanced XLR for so long. That's one thing Red did not have to re-invent, but maybe I'm just an old fogey. The fact that the camera can not do the simple task of running a pro level mic makes me suspicious of the audio section in general. I started in the biz as a sound guy, so maybe my standards are too critical.

 

[Elizabeth Lowrey]

Others have a different experience. With line level inputs the performance is at least as good as an F900 or a Varicam.

I understand that RED folks are going to react defensively to criticism of their flagship product. But I don't think it's wise to fall back on stuff like "line level" performance comparisons when there are still MAJOR design/manufacturing flaws in the audio.

Small film crews and those shooting docs, ENG, and solo freelance work rely every single day on the mic pres in professional cameras as well as on in-camera limiters. You would be hard pressed to find a single motion picture camera today that acquires images electronically and sells for over $5K that DOESN'T include reasonable implementations of these features plus phantom power. So unless and until RED updates the audio section of RED ONE to provide quality mic preamps that supply phantom power and adequate gain without high noise levels, hums, buzzes, or other anomalies; until RED is compatible with professional industry standards (e.g., standard XLR pin cabling, +4 line input levels, etc.); and until RED provides a method to adjust audio input levels on the fly (i.e., dedicated knob or buttons) without having to access menus, its audio section will remain painfully substandard and it would not pass without objection in the trade as a professional video camera.

I love this product and company and remain optimistic that RED ONE's audio will one day be worthy of its picture, but I have no intentions of completing my purchase of the camera until it at least has equivalent audio performance to my DVX-100. And sooner or later (hopefully sooner), the RED engineers are going to have to acknowledge their audio mis-steps and correct them.

 

[James Brundige]

Small film crews and those shooting docs, ENG, and solo freelance work rely every single day on the mic pres in professional cameras as well as on in-camera limiters. You would be hard pressed to find a single motion picture camera today that acquires images electronically and sells for over $5K that DOESN'T include reasonable implementations of these features plus phantom power. So unless and until RED updates the audio section of RED ONE to provide quality mic preamps that supply phantom power and adequate gain without high noise levels, hums, buzzes, or other anomalies; until RED is compatible with professional industry standards (e.g., standard XLR pin cabling, +4 line input levels, etc.); and until RED provides a method to adjust audio input levels on the fly (i.e., dedicated knob or buttons) without having to access menus, its audio section will remain painfully substandard and it would not pass without objection in the trade as a professional video camera.

I love this product and company and remain optimistic that RED ONE's audio will one day be worthy of its picture, but I have no intentions of completing my purchase of the camera until it at least has equivalent audio performance to my DVX-100. And sooner or later (hopefully sooner), the RED engineers are going to have to acknowledge their audio mis-steps and correct them.

Dead On - And don't make us go through menus to adjust gain. Knobs and pots are not expensive. Maybe this will become one of those third party solutions.

I think there is a disconnect between a film (in which sound is a very separate function) and broadcast approach. But broadcast is a much larger segment of the industry, so Red would do well to get the audio section on par with even the most basic video camera.

 

[Elizabeth Lowrey]

Dead On - And don't make us go through menus to adjust gain. Knobs and pots are not expensive. Maybe this will become one of those third party solutions.

I think there is a disconnect between a film (in which sound is a very separate function) and broadcast approach. But broadcast is a much larger segment of the industry, so Red would do well to get the audio section on par with even the most basic video camera.

James, I just noticed your signature and visited your website. Just giving a shout out to a fellow Berklee College alum. I graduated in 1984. Studied composition, arranging, and electronic music.:biggrin:

 

[Stuart English]

Audio error message

Audio error message

I love this product and company and remain optimistic that RED ONE's audio will one day be worthy of its picture, but I have no intentions of completing my purchase of the camera until it at least has equivalent audio performance to my DVX-100.

There is always room for improvement in any design, and yes there are different ways to do things, but just to keep the facts straight.

- The RED-ONE already outperforms most, if not all professional video cameras when fed with a line level input.

- With Build 16 you CAN increase and decrease audio levels without going to the menus.

- A standalone 24 bit audio recorder will outperform an internal RED-ONE recording, thats true for every professional video camera.

if you are prepared to work with the audio section it'll give you really nice results. Fight against it and it won't.

 

[Elizabeth Lowrey]

- The RED-ONE already outperforms most, if not all professional video cameras when fed with a line level input.

I was very impressed with a few of the line-level fed recordings I heard, and that's terrific.

That still has nothing to do with the absolute necessity of decent quality mic pres and clean phantom power, since both are essential and expected by the vast majority of professionals shooting solo, with small crews, or who work extensively in docs or other realms where budget and/or circumstances don't support extrinsic audio equipment and dedicated audio personnel.

- A standalone 24 bit audio recorder will outperform an internal RED-ONE recording, thats true for every professional video camera.

That's certainly not the standard to which I'm holding the RED ONE, nor have I ever read anyone here advocating such a standard. Again, I'd like it to have at least as much industry standardization/compatibility and performance as my DVX gives me. That's not setting the bar very high.

if you are prepared to work with the audio section it'll give you really nice results. Fight against it and it won't.

If that means continued patience and TEMPORARY workarounds as RED engineers work through higher priority issues before fixing the audio problems, that's fine. I'm very comfortable with that.

If it's code for "we know we dropped the ball on the audio and in order to get decent sound you will have to supply external phantom power and microphone preamplification and you'll have to get used to non-professional level inputs and mis-wired xlr jacks, then I think that absolutely sucks, and I can tell you it will change my personal plans for buying the camera. In my value system, the audio in an "audio/visual" presentation is at least as important as the video. And any camera meant to attract people from a professional video background (as the RED was clearly conceived to do, no matter who else it also targeted) has to provide at least the basic tools taken for granted by those users in that style of shooting. Those tools include properly-wired XLR jacks (even if requiring mini-standard adapters), clean phantom power, and reasonably quiet mic preamps.

- With Build 16 you CAN increase and decrease audio levels without going to the menus.

That's terrific news! Can you elaborate on how this was implemented (user-assignable button, etc.)?

I missed that announcement, obviously, but it's the kind of improvement based on user feedback that fortifies my faith that, eventually, RED will do the right thing and upgrade/change/correct its hardware, as needed, to make the audio section worthy of inclusion on a camera that takes such stupendous pictures.:wink:

 

[James Brundige]

James, I just noticed your signature and visited your website. Just giving a shout out to a fellow Berklee College alum. I graduated in 1984. Studied composition, arranging, and electronic music.:biggrin:

I guess that's why we're the ones here asking for a pro audio input section.

 

[James Brundige]

- The RED-ONE already outperforms most, if not all professional video cameras when fed with a line level input.
.

Outperfom? By what standards? Most cameras I have ever used (since National Geographic abandoned film in 1998 and I sold my Arri SR) have a better audio input section than the Red One.

Red will float or not depending on it's how it actually performs. I love the company, and their ethic, and the images I see coming out of my camera. I am rooting for its success, and have invested a lot of time and money into Red in the last year. But if it is to penetrate the broadcast market, they have to implement a pro audio input section.

I understand how hard they are working on image quality and options - that's great. Put one pro audio guy on the case and these issues can be fixed.

How many Panavision cameras and Arri 35 film cameras are out there vs. how many betacams / HDCAMs / Varicams / Xdcams? For broadcast, Red must have audio at least as good and usable as the betacam I retired five years ago.

 

[Meryem Ersoz]

- The RED-ONE already outperforms most, if not all professional video cameras when fed with a line level input.

I think that we folks fussing about the audio just want a straight answer as to whether 48v mic level onboard recording will ever be possible with existing RED ONEs (I have already bought my cameras, so I'm obviously not holding my purchase hostage over this).

But I just want to know how to set my expectations. Will I always need to set up a MixPre to compensate for what RED ONE does not do, audio-wise, at the mic level? Or not? Or is the question simply not answerable, right now, because it is something that requires more investigation by RED? Like eclaire, I'm willing to wait, but it's an important issue to me, and I would like to have a straight answer to the question.

For fast conditions, rigging a MixPre to the camera to obtain line-level sound is a PITA and a weak solution. I tried to do some sports shooting with this, for a national TV broadcast that we are working on, and the mic level is too noisy, and the line level, if it has to be rigged to the camera makes the whole unit too unwieldy to be as mobile as I need it, so my dream of adding RED footage to our national broadcast had to be dropped. I can think of several other applications, for which I planned to use RED, where the onboard audio, as it is, will likely force me to pick up another camera.

At least one of my cameras will probably become an EPIC eventually, and I hope the whole discussion is moot, at that point, but an answer to the question right now would be a big help in terms of knowing what I can plan for, or not.

 

[Steve Sherrick]

I don't disagree with where you guys are coming from. I come from an audio background, so I am just as interested in seeing Red One excel in its audio capabilities as you are. As a digital cinema camera (which Red is first and foremost. Broadcast and other genres just get to take advantage of it too) it's first priority is picture, because in the cinema world most projects are shot double system sound. And that is a good thing for the production because it means the sound recordist is in full control of the audio, not the cameraman.

Of course, now the Red has become all things to all people. Heck, someone even shot a wedding with one (which looked amazing by the way). So, now it is no longer a digital cinema camera. It is a 4K Digital Video Camera that can be used on features, commercials, PSAs, corporate, sports, and weddings. So, audio has become a high priority because some of these genres are more run and gun with microphones strapped to the camera, looking for phantom power at a high quality level. So, the question now becomes, what is inside the camera for audio hardware and is it capable of giving people the critical quality they are looking for (very subjective of course, but let's assume it's quality we would expect on a DVCProHD camera). Okay, here's how you judge that.

1. Does phantom power provide clean, true 48V power to the microphone?
2. What is the S/N ratio?
3. Is there a built in limiter?
4. Are there easy ways to control audio levels?
5. Does the mic pre have a neutral quality, or is it adding character?
6. Is 24bits, truly 24bits?
7. Is the circuitry isolated enough from some of the internal components of the camera?
8. What issues can be traced to hardware and what issues can be traced to firmware?

W can open up a lot of cans of worms here, and for me I've placed so much emphasis on the visuals up to this point, as well as the workflow, that audio has had to take a backseat. Well, now I'm going to take a closer look. I am hopeful that I will be able to work with the audio section, and find out what it can and cannot do. I do know that it has had no issues so far when taking line level, and I've used battery powered mics (Rode NTG2 and Sony ECM 77B). I will test phantom power next, using the camera's power and pres. I will report back with my findings.

 

[Mark B.]

From what I understand, Red's audio problems are a permanent hardware problem that can only be fixed with new electronics being installed in the body. There are enough people complaining about it that if the solution was a firmware issue, we would already have a fixed system.

I'd be interested to hear about your findings regarding the phantom power.

 

[Stuart English]

Audio performance

Audio performance

I do know that it has had no issues so far when taking line level, and I've used battery powered mics (Rode NTG2 and Sony ECM 77B). I will test phantom power next, using the camera's power and pres. I will report back with my findings.

I'd concur with the above. It matches what other end users have said. What you will most likely find is that the phantom power is not at this point in time particularly clean, so use with due caution. Battery power, or some alternate form of +48V auxiliary power to the mic will help that issue.

Audio (mic pre-amp) level control is available outside of the menus on Build 16 by reassignment of the User Keys and / or using the rotary switch of the RED-EVF.

 

[Steve Sherrick]

I'd concur with the above. It matches what other end users have said. What you will most likely find is that the phantom power is not at this point in time particularly clean, so use with due caution. Battery power, or some alternate form of +48V auxiliary power to the mic will help that issue.

Audio (mic pre-amp) level control is available outside of the menus on Build 16 by reassignment of the User Keys and / or using the rotary switch of the RED-EVF.

Well, if that is the case, then yes it is a weak point in the audio chain. So it will entail a workaround for shooters who are trying to keep the camera lean and don't want to strap additional audio gear on there. This little guy would be great if it had the proper outputs.
http://www.core-sound.com/Mic2496/1.php

I do like that you guys have implemented the user assignable buttons and having control on the EVF is handy.

For those who are thinking of not buying the camera because of the audio issues, all I can say is that you are missing out. If you are creative with how you build the camera, you can mount a Sound Devices MM-1 on the camera with no problem. Then your wireless Lav can go into channel 2 and will run on its own battery power source. The top cheeseplate gives you a lot of options for mounting things to the camera and if you use vertical and horizontal space efficiently, I think you can get around this.

 

[Elizabeth Lowrey]

From what I understand, Red's audio problems are a permanent hardware problem that can only be fixed with new electronics being installed in the body. There are enough people complaining about it that if the solution was a firmware issue, we would already have a fixed system.

See, this is what's scary. I hear what Stuart is saying, but, unfortunately, I hear even louder what he (and RED) are NOT saying. When threads like this go on and on and the only response is to point up the meager things that the audio section does competently (record line level signals cleanly), it only serves to connote that RED is not going to do anything at the hardware level to correct the obvious defects in the audio input section. This is counter to the way the company deals with ever other issue with the camera and its workflow, so I'm trying not to be to dramatic or pessimistic, but that is the consistent vibe I've gotten about audio problems.

I really wish Jim would peep his head into this forum just once so that he could understand how important audio functionality is to a great segment of his potential and current user base and so that those of us with cash on reserve for this camera know whether it's a purchase we will have to abandon.