Bailout Alternative???

[Priyesh P.]

Kalone, we've got HUGE communities of Germans here in the U.S. Some of our best citizens!

(Ahem, there is a Winterbaur in my oun ancestry:whistling: )

I heard quite a big number of you guys over there have German ancestors. Winterbaur. Sounds bavarian (don`t confuse with barbarian)

 

[number6]

I heard quite a big number of you guys over there have German ancestors. Winterbaur. Sounds bavarian (don`t confuse with barbarian)

Heh, Heh,

OBTW, Have always wanted to ask someone who might know... What is meant by Black Dutch (or Deutsch?) Is it a descriptive term of language, or region, or even genetics?

Have you heard the term before?

 

[Radoslav Karapetkov]

Thats interesting I did not know that. I wonder how long it lasted? Seems in some ways the ancients worked systems as a whole that better served its own people?
I am trying to find out what worked, that best helped the people of a certain state and the world. I want to try at least, to put all the best ideas together that worked and see if I can help promote it or others that are good as well.
For me I would kind of love if every country can be independent(economically, military, energy, ect.) without the need for starting wars, only for defending its self, but I know that seems impossible. :sad: But life goes on and even if there isnt anything new under the sun at least I can die knowing I tried.:matrix:

It lasted a good deal of time, up until the republican system started eroding and guys like Caesar simply had to transform the state into a monarchy\empire.

After that, democratic institutions continued to exist, but were in submission to the emperor.

The Roman republic\democracy worked fine for centuries, but as they conquered most of the known world, a huge river of money, slaves and resources started flowing toward the capital and the whole system simply started disintegrating, cause it was built for much smaller scales.

At least, that was one of the reasons. The apple pie became ten times bigger and so did corruption, possibilities to become rich and powerful and all kinds of power struggle.

Caesar reluctantly centralized the mess, otherwise they would've collapsed.

And even under the empire, Romans remained pretty democratic in their spirit and life, but the battle at the top was totally merciless and inhuman.

It's funny that they never intended to conquer the world. And then they were gone...

Fortuna laughs above us all. :calm:

 

[Radoslav Karapetkov]

I heard quite a big number of you guys over there have German ancestors. Winterbaur. Sounds bavarian (don`t confuse with barbarian)

I heard somewhere that when the US were initially instituted [after the Independence], German language was an option for the official language of the union [probably because of the large number of German emigrants].

Is this true?

The other thing was that monarchy was also an option but both of these were voted against.

Any truth to these?

 

[Jeff Kilgroe]

I heard somewhere that when the US were initially instituted [after the Independence], German language was an option for the official language of the union [probably because of the large number of German emigrants].

German was considered, but not as the standard language, but as a language that all government documents would be transcribed as. In the early days of our independence, there were massive numbers of German immigrants who primarily settled farming communities, and the influx continued well up to the American Civil War. Many of the farming communities and towns in the heartland of America, have Germanic origins.

The consideration then was not unlike many southern and western states today who face the consideration of making Spanish an official language, along with English, for government documents, public schools, etc..

The other thing was that monarchy was also an option but both of these were voted against.

Several systems of government were considered once our independence from England was won. Monarchy was indeed one of these systems. It was eventually decided through a series of intense debates and various sorts of elections, that the new country would be a democratic republic with all members of government being servants of the people, elected by the people. George Washington, elected as our first leader or Commander In Chief, did not like that term, nor was it appropriate to call him ruler, king, etc.. He simply chose to be called President; as the civilian body who presides over dealings of the government and who addresses the people on behalf of the government.

The President has a few unique responsibilities, the most important of these is the power to have final say in signing any federal legislation into law or vetoing such legislation. Next is that the President is also Commander In Chief of the country's military, however the President can not declare war or mobilize the military to attack a foreign or domestic power -- that is an act of Congress.

 

[Michael Schrengohst]

What is clear, reading this thread, is that Americans today have nothing in common with each other -- we might as well live on different planets. So maybe Todd & Sarah Palin had the right idea: voluntarily break up the union, on ideological lines.

Populous blue state America would no longer be prevented by politicians from Oklahoma or Wyoming from pursuing social and economic policies favored overwhelmingly by their citizens, such as single-payer health insurance and other forms of socialism, and red states would be free to pursue flat taxes, theocracy, unrestricted gun ownership, and an end to social welfare programs, liability lawsuits and international treaties.

It would mean a significant lose of revenue for the red states -- Federal subsidies would no longer flow from the despised liberal states -- but surely that's a small price to pay for freedom? Besides, blue states might well end up funding the Red Union anyway. These are spineless liberal appeasers, after all. All you need do is threaten them a little.

For the tens of millions of Americans who are more apt to look to Sweden or France for a model of a decent society than to Texas or Alabama, the only other choice, as far as I can see, is leaving the country, which doesn't seem quite fair.

Here you go:

http://texassecession.com/

 

[Jeff Kilgroe]

Here you go:

http://texassecession.com/

And to think that about 150 years ago, this was one of the primary reasons our country went to war with itself.

 

[Priyesh P.]

Heh, Heh,

OBTW, Have always wanted to ask someone who might know... What is meant by Black Dutch (or Deutsch?) Is it a descriptive term of language, or region, or even genetics?

Have you heard the term before?

Dutch is the language of the people from Holland, "Deutsch" (spoken "deutsh") is German.

Black Deutsch? Never heard of this exact term, but it could be what we call "black" or (in german) "schwarz" - it`s another expression for people from bavaria.

 

[Priyesh P.]

In the early days of our independence, there were massive numbers of German immigrants.

As long as I`m not totally wrong, 20% of you people in the U.S. have german ancestors.

 

[Radoslav Karapetkov]

German was considered,...

Thanks. I was curious...

 

[number6]

Dutch is the language of the people from Holland, "Deutsch" (spoken "deutsh") is German.

Black Deutsch? Never heard of this exact term, but it could be what we call "black" or (in german) "schwarz" - it`s another expression for people from bavaria.

Thanks, yes I was aware of the difference betweeen the Dutch of Holland and the Deutsch of Germany. But many from here are not and simply refer to members of the German community as "Dutchmen", probably hearing the Germans refer to themselves as Deutsch but not seeing it spelled, interpret it to have been "Dutch".

It's just that I've often heard the Winterbauers referred to as being "Black Dutch" and wondered if this denoted a region between Germany and Holland. But as you say, probably Bavarian. I CAN yodel a bit.

 

[ericyoung]

To keep things in perspective, I would point out that:

A- Capitalism has worked out pretty well for those living under it. Safety, life expectancy, quality of life, etc. has gone up dramatically in capitalist countries.

Compare this with communism and dictatorships, where life isn't as good. In capitalist countries, natural disasters usually don't wipe you out. We don't starve when there is a drought or famine. Yet there are other people in the world who do. That's a huge difference.

And it was only several generations ago where scores of people would get wiped out by diseases and the plague.

B- A downside to capitalism is that the distribution of wealth is uneven and that not everybody has benefited from the massive improvements in quality of life...

Exactly - capitalism too often benefits a minority by exploitation of the majority if one looks at it from a global perspective. Capitalism has spurred amazing technological advances, and I'm happy to benefit from them. Unfortunately, capitalism also refuses to pass on those same advances to anyone who can't afford to pay market rate ie. precisely those developing countries who really need some of them - eg allowing generic versions of anti-disease drugs.

Of course, if there are cheap versions of drugs in only some countries, then a black market will inevitably develop. But hey that's just another example of a free market, and no one suggests that black markets shouldn't be restrained!

I'm not saying we should be "saving" other countries, but developed countries should ask themselves questions whether it is "right" to site say a soft drinks factory in an arid but cheap Indian area where their rate of unregulated ground water extraction means that the water table for miles outside its perimeter is falling at a rate faster than the indigenous farming population can sink boreholes for irrigation of their farmland. This is a manmade disaster which a locally unregulated corporation sees no problem with because it is amoral and only interested in profit.

Corporations are amoral by design, and that is OK, but they must be properly regulated by an authority that takes moral/ethical judgements into account.

When corporations are multinational, national regulation becomes even more ineffectual, and too many will practice unethical business wherever in the world they can get away with it.

 

[number6]

It lasted a good deal of time, up until the republican system started eroding and guys like Caesar simply had to transform the state into a monarchy\empire.

After that, democratic institutions continued to exist, but were in submission to the emperor.

The Roman republic\democracy worked fine for centuries, but as they conquered most of the known world, a huge river of money, slaves and resources started flowing toward the capital and the whole system simply started disintegrating, cause it was built for much smaller scales.

At least, that was one of the reasons. The apple pie became ten times bigger and so did corruption, possibilities to become rich and powerful and all kinds of power struggle.

Caesar reluctantly centralized the mess, otherwise they would've collapsed.

And even under the empire, Romans remained pretty democratic in their spirit and life, but the battle at the top was totally merciless and inhuman.

It's funny that they never intended to conquer the world. And then they were gone...

Fortuna laughs above us all. :calm:

Karapetkov, just wondering if, as a student of history you may have watched I, Claudius?

While I'm sure it was more or less a dramitization of actual events, I found it a fascinating depiction of what life may have been like during those times. And Derek Jacoby as Claudius (and Brian Blessed as Caesar Augustus, too... although I thought he was much better in Black Adder) earned my undying respect.

If you haven't seen it, I'm not suggesting you run out and buy the boxed set (probably about 12 hours... or more!... in length).

That money may be better spent on a few cases of soup.:umm:

 

[Radoslav Karapetkov]

Karapetkov, just wondering if, as a student of history you may have watched I, Claudius?

While I'm sure it was more or less a dramitization of actual events, I found it a fascinating depiction of what life may have been like during those times. And Derek Jacoby as Claudius (and Brian Blessed as Caesar Augustus, too... although I thought he was much better in Black Adder) earned my undying respect.

If you haven't seen it, I'm not suggesting you run out and buy the boxed set (probably about 12 hours... or more!... in length).

That money may be better spent on a few cases of soup.:umm:

I'm just a Roman history geek, that's all.

Studied Philosophy at the University.

Yes, I've watched the I, Claudius series, but it was long ago, got to re-watch them.

I particularly like Caligula:

http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0080491/

Think whatever you want, but for me, this is a good film and the porn elements actually enhance the story, cause it depicts truthfully what we now call "Roman times".

And, of course,.. Ben Hur.

 

[Priyesh P.]

and the porn elements actually enhance the story, cause it depicts truthfully what we now call "Roman times".Ben Hur.

there`s nothing wrong with porn. I´d like to see some in today`s politics (not literary porn like in the Clinton-Lewinsky case but captured in images, maybe on the Red) :clown2:
:biggrin:

 

[Priyesh P.]

But many from here are not and simply refer to members of the German community as "Dutchmen"

Never! Never! Never do that!!! Germans and Dutchmen are enemies by design. You could cause vendettas or at least end up in a duell over here for such an affront!!
Just exaggerating ;-) but actually the Germans always badger the Dutch people - please don`t ask me why - it`s the way it is. It´s most apparent during soccer matches.

It's just that I've often heard the Winterbauers referred to as being "Black Dutch" and wondered if this denoted a region between Germany and Holland. But as you say, probably Bavarian. I CAN yodel a bit.

HAHA!
Hey, then I made a fluke before! But I have the impression that bavarians have quite a lot of names that consist of two words - and this name consists of winter+bauer = winter+farmer (but you may have known that already) - and since I made a quick check where the name is most common here, you can be quite sure about bavaria - most winterbauers live in south Germany = bavaria...

 

[number6]

HAHA!
Hey, then I made a fluke before! But I have the impression that bavarians have quite a lot of names that consist of two words - and this name consists of winter+bauer = winter+farmer (but you may have known that already) - and since I made a quick check where the name is most common here, you can be quite sure about bavaria - most winterbauers live in south Germany = bavaria...

Hah! Guess that explains why my forebears were farmers and why they settled in the Southern portion of the US

 

[number6]

there`s nothing wrong with porn. I´d like to see some in today`s politics (not literary porn like in the Clinton-Lewinsky case but captured in images, maybe on the Red) :clown2:
:biggrin:

I do hope you are not wishing for some unsavory footage of McCain with the Senator from Idaho (forgot his name)... or for something like Obama on the doun-lo with Jeremy Wright!

Either of those I would find disgusting. (Either candidate having sex with Halley Berry would be quite intriguing, however.:w00t: )

 

[Priyesh P.]

I do hope you are not wishing for some unsavory footage of McCain with the Senator from Idaho (forgot his name)... or for something like Obama on the doun-lo with Jeremy Wright!

NOOOOOO!!! NO, PLeaSE NO!!!

To get rid of this disgusting images you`ve planted...where`s good ol` Palin in this equation? Heh?
BTW - Her name screams for some fantastic titles, i.e. Impalin` or so ;-)

 

[Priyesh P.]

Hah! Guess that explains why my forebears were farmers and why they settled in the Southern portion of the US

Thats funny!