Bailout Alternative???

[Joseph Ward]

There will never be a perfect system. I think its better to try to do something than do nothing but if someone wants to complain they should try to at least come up with some ideas of making things better.

 

[Andrew Walker]

So do I. :gun:

Jeff, if I'm ever out your way or vise versa I'm buying you a beer...or we could use my expensive paper hole punchers.:biggrin:

 

[Alex Coelho]

Not sure how this became a gun control discussion but I dont believe anyone said guns should be banned. I am not a gun owner but respect your right to have one. Does that mean any and all types of guns....I say no because there needs to be some restriction to protect society. You only have to look at the Virginia Tech tragedy to see that much more regulation needs to be enacted. It seems to me that the gun advocates dont want any kind rules or standards and that is unacceptable. Also, you can be for the 2nd amendment and for the assault weapons ban. By the standards you use, anyone could own any type of weapon no matter how lethal.

 

[number6]

KILGROE FOR PRESIDENT!!!!

Just joking.... or am I?:calm:

 

[Jeff Kilgroe]

You only have to look at the Virginia Tech tragedy to see that much more regulation needs to be enacted. It seems to me that the gun advocates dont want any kind rules or standards and that is unacceptable.

Not sure how we got on gun control... Probably because this thread from hell is all over the place. But, since we're there, I think extreme examples such as the Virginia Tech incident, Columbine High School (I have family members that were very close to that one), post office shootings, etc.. are just not proper benchmarks. The media sensationalizes such events in this country and many other places and we often don't see that these tragedies are quite rare compared to typical violence perpetrated with a firearm -- armed robbery, gang violence, domestic violence, individual homicides, etc.. Even in "gun free" societies, there are fanatical outbursts like Virginia Tech... People driving vehicles loaded with toxins or explosives into building lobbies, poisonous gas on subway systems, and a multitude of other means by which someone who is mentally unstable or driven by extreme and irrational motives to cause harm on a mass scale. And yes, even in places where guns are completely outlawed and only enter through black-market channels, we still see such destructive people occasionally kill and wound a dozen people with guns. Furthermore, fanatical and psychotic outbursts are not deterred by laws or punishments to be imposed after the fact, but rather with complete disregard for potential outcome, most often the perpetrator already resigning themselves to death before even arriving at their intended target.

But for more common occurrences of gun-related crimes, better controls are indeed needed. Many gun owners, myself included, are often not too keen on more laws and regulations on obtaining firearms. Two reasons for this:

1> The amount of gun control laws and regulations already on the books in most states is simply staggering. And I have yet to hear a convincing argument for how piling more legislation on top will better the situation. The real problem is not the current laws, or any lack of such, but a problem of enforcement. We need fewer plea-bargains and tougher courts (and in many cases jurors), who are willing to impose maximum sentences as a deterrent. On the note of tougher laws or new legislation, I would definitely be interested in amended legislation that mandates maximum sentences and/or greatly restricts the ability to plea-bargain in the case of crimes involving firearms or other deadly weapons.

2> The majority of crimes perpetrated with firearms in this country (to the tune of around 80%), are done so with weapons that have been stolen, improperly or fraudulently registered or illegally obtained. Passing more laws governing the acquisition of firearms is not going to have any effect in this regard. Until our society finds a way to stop the continuous flow of illegal weapons, drugs and money that continuously crosses our borders and circulates within, this problem is not going to go away. It seems that the one real exception to this is the majority of domestic violence incidents involving firearms are crimes of opportunity such as escalated arguments that become physical or overwhelmingly emotional and a gun present in the house becomes a convenient and irrational solution. For that, I have no solution and for guns in that situation that are legally obtained and owned, perhaps we have to simply accept such incidents as an associated risk or a means of suffrage for having that 2nd amendment.

The best we can hope for is tougher enforcement and maximized sentences. Some new legislation is warranted to tighten up some loopholes... More in some states vs. others, I would presume. We need better security and property management policies in place for our own police forces. Many of the above mentioned stolen firearms are actually stolen right from police vehicles or as inside-jobs when confiscated, illegal firearms are to be destroyed, yet entire caches of them end up back on our streets.

KILGROE FOR PRESIDENT!!!!

Just joking.... or am I?:calm:

HELL, NO! I wouldn't touch that job with a 20ft pole and double-thick rubber gloves.

And I really need to bow out of this discussion. As a moderator, I probably should not be involved and try to remain as impartial as possible in the eyes of the community. OOOps, too late for that now.

 

[Priyesh P.]

The 2nd Amendment was put in place so not only could we defend ourselves from criminals but from the government.

HAHAHAHAHAHA...!!! Yeah, go on, and defend yourself from the government, together with millions of armed dipshits and hillbillies who would rather blast their own heads off than hit the chinese wall in front of them, that`s gonna make a hell of a party. I bet the remainings of all of you can easily be put into a Coke can after your "defense" against the government (I mean, governments are meant to be evil by definition, right? that is what governments are meant to be - what a nice country you`re living in...). That was a good laugh. Must be April 1st today:clown2: Where are my nukes ?

 

[Steven M. Bailey]

HAHAHAHAHAHA...!!! Yeah, go on, and defend yourself from the government, together with millions of armed dipshits and hillbillies who would rather blast their own heads off than hit the chinese wall in front of them, that`s gonna make a hell of a party. I bet the remainings of all of you can easily be put into a Coke can after your "defense" against the government (I mean, governments are meant to be evil by definition, right? that is what governments are meant to be - what a nice country you`re living in...). That was a good laugh. Must be April 1st today:clown2: Where are my nukes ?

Some of us were born armed hillbilly dipshits, and unlike alot of movies, your run of the the mill, gun toting hillbilly dipshit and their families are among the most giving, hospitable and gracious people in the world. We just get a little pissed off when the city dipshits shoot up each other, then pass legislation that effects us.

Thats the problem with majority rule. If you live outside the centers of population density, your lifestyle is slowly destroyed by the masses, and they don't even see your point of view from their smog infested rat mazes. you and your way of life might as well not exist.

Long live the gun toting, freedom loving, "I can do it myself, screw the damn government", hillbilly(this includes their cousins the rednecks, the hicks and the mountain folk . :gun:

Sure we're insignificant against our massive government machine of evil, but thats nothing new. If Jeff brings the helicopters, I got the snipers. Any body wants to ride along thats ok, but I call shotgun :clown2:

 

[Radoslav Karapetkov]

Ancient Roman plebeii [ordinary citizens without noble titles] protested against the old republican state and won their right to elect tribunus populi, which were kind of like a second government, which could veto every decision made by their Senate [legislative body] and consuls [executive power].

It was a more democratic country later on and it worked beautifully - Romans conquered much of what was worth conquering in the world.

But it was this very conquest that killed them in the end...

 

[Steven M. Bailey]

Ive got the solution. The hillbilly's don't need to fight the government they just need to make sure that as the troops are mounting against them that Macdonald's is awarded the contract for supplying the troops with coffee. Once they start spilling it on themselves, the lawsuits will be so thick that they will declare the effort to costly and forget all about us.:help: :gun:

 

[Radoslav Karapetkov]

I think its better to try to do something than do nothing.

Not if you're a Taoist Jedi master.

 

[ericyoung]

I'm left of centre, but the thing about all governments is that they forget that they are supposed to be our servants, not our masters!

 

[Andrew Walker]

Not sure how this became a gun control discussion but I dont believe anyone said guns should be banned. I am not a gun owner but respect your right to have one. Does that mean any and all types of guns....I say no because there needs to be some restriction to protect society. You only have to look at the Virginia Tech tragedy to see that much more regulation needs to be enacted. It seems to me that the gun advocates dont want any kind rules or standards and that is unacceptable. Also, you can be for the 2nd amendment and for the assault weapons ban. By the standards you use, anyone could own any type of weapon no matter how lethal.

Lets take a deeper look at these mass murders with firearms by an individual. Virginia Tech, Columbine and a couple of those post office shootings have something in common with each other...they are all gun free zones. So now we have established that fact lets look at why someone would want to pick one of these gun free zones to attack. Well what do you know, all the law abiding gun owners aren't allowed to have guns there to protect themselves. Kind of sounds like a turkey shoot doesn't it. See the problem is that you are always going to have these crazies scattered among us. Why not be ready for the unexpected. You can defend your life many times but lose it only once.

HAHAHAHAHAHA...!!! Yeah, go on, and defend yourself from the government, together with millions of armed dipshits and hillbillies who would rather blast their own heads off than hit the chinese wall in front of them, that`s gonna make a hell of a party. I bet the remainings of all of you can easily be put into a Coke can after your "defense" against the government (I mean, governments are meant to be evil by definition, right? that is what governments are meant to be - what a nice country you`re living in...). That was a good laugh. Must be April 1st today:clown2: Where are my nukes ?

I guess by your definition anyone that enjoys shooting guns must be a hillbilly right? Going up against the government in a fight in any conventional means would be a little difficult. But what works for the Iraqis would work for us as well.

 

[Priyesh P.]

I`m not a daydreaming pacifist hippie. I know that humans are violent and non-rational creatures - but that`s exactely why I`m against massive circulation of firearms. Thank god that Germany has much more restrictive laws in this area. God bless Germany.

And I won`t go on further on this topic. BTW, how`s the 700 billion $ bailout plan doing? Everything ok now again?

 

[Priyesh P.]

I guess by your definition anyone that enjoys shooting guns must be a hillbilly right? Going up against the government in a fight in any conventional means would be a little difficult. But what works for the Iraqis would work for us as well.

Both you and Steve misunderstood me, but I don`t mind correcting it, I`m tired of repeating the pro-arms discussion and just noticed that I don`t care anyway - luckily you and the likes of you are in a country far, far, far away from here. The only thing that interests me in this thread is the financial crisis.

 

[Michael Schrengohst]

Everyone is making a big assumption.
Will the military obey Obama?

 

[R Fogg]

uh, why wouldn't they?

 

[Jeff Kilgroe]

HAHAHAHAHAHA...!!! Yeah, go on, and defend yourself from the government, together with millions of armed dipshits and hillbillies who would rather blast their own heads off than hit the chinese wall in front of them, that`s gonna make a hell of a party. I bet the remainings of all of you can easily be put into a Coke can after your "defense" against the government (I mean, governments are meant to be evil by definition, right? that is what governments are meant to be - what a nice country you`re living in...). That was a good laugh. Must be April 1st today:clown2: Where are my nukes ?

I know I said I'd let this issue rest, but you're just not seeing this for what it is...

Our military is, at the core, volunteer. Comprised of citizens that vote. Citizens, who after initial service, live and work amongst the population as any other civilian member of society, even if they remain attached to military service as those who make up our military reserves. Our police forces and emergency responders are the same way - civilian. They get up every day and put on their uniform and go to work just as if they were a plumber, electrician or computer programmer.

By and large, if the civilian population had reason to to take forceable action against the government or protect themselves from such action, those serving in our military and police forces would be aligned with the civilian population. Our active and reservist military have the duty of protecting this country and its interests, even if it means protecting it from itself or governing bodies that have failed. Even with all the issues that surround military action abroad, most all our boys would never open fire on their own communities.

IAnd I won`t go on further on this topic. BTW, how`s the 700 billion $ bailout plan doing? Everything ok now again?

<sarcasm=heavy>Everything must me OK. Top AIG execs just went on a $400K outting to a a day spa, complete with hookers</sarcasm>

http://ap.google.com/article/ALeqM5iCBEplezRU4MUlI3wKRd0IZ9GCgQD93M2CP00 :sarcasm:

However, they were quickly busted on this little romp. And were forced to cancel a second outing of the same nature.

http://www.nydailynews.com/money/2008/10/09/2008-10-09_aig_executives_cancel_planned_california.html

The bailout is a bad, bad deal. Should never have been proposed. Should never have been hacked together so fast and so quickly agreed upon. Because in reality, it will be a very slow process actually getting that money out to ailing financial institutions. AIG and a few monster lending and mortgage companies will account for nearly all of it, whereas the smaller more independent banks who ran a tighter ship, only to see shortfalls due to the ailing economy (and are far more deserving, IMO), will never see a dime.

 

[number6]

I`m not a daydreaming pacifist hippie. I know that humans are violent and non-rational creatures - but that`s exactely why I`m against massive circulation of firearms. Thank god that Germany has much more restrictive laws in this area. God bless Germany.

And I won`t go on further on this topic. BTW, how`s the 700 billion $ bailout plan doing? Everything ok now again?

Well, you guys showed back during the 20th Century that you are not responsible when it comes to armaments, so I too am thankful you have more restrictive laws.

But all seriousness aside, you are right in that Your Country and My Country and Everyone Else's Country have different mores and historical timelines. I think what many of us here are defending is that some who comment think it is only right that this entire nation conform to their way of living.

Hell! We are in essence about 50 nations under one umbrella! Don't try to fit us with a pink condom that supposedly one size fits all!

Some among us are monogamist and don't want or need a condom!


Afterthought: I wish in place of that last line I had said "We are not all Dickheads!" It would have been much more fitting.

 

[Steven M. Bailey]

I`m not a daydreaming pacifist hippie. I know that humans are violent and non-rational creatures - but that`s exactely why I`m against massive circulation of firearms. Thank god that Germany has much more restrictive laws in this area. God bless Germany.

And I won`t go on further on this topic. BTW, how`s the 700 billion $ bailout plan doing? Everything ok now again?

One of my favorite pistols is made in germany :gun:

 

[Bob Gruen]

A couple of on-topic individual thoughts to play with:

Money is virtual work-product (a more descriptive term for wealth (goods and services)), and its value is set by people when we exchange it for real work-product. Politicians talk about money like it solves problems, but in actuality people solve problems when they convert it to the work-product that they require. In this light economics is 180 degrees out of phase, its not the dollars flowing that is important, its the creation, exchange, and consumption of work-product. Look at our current economic problems under this light and things get a bit clearer.

We in America thought we had a lot more wealth than we had because people were buying up more homes than A: the needed or B: could afford. No one is talking about the Real Estate Investment boom that is currently coming apart at the seems as so many mortgages under single investors are falling like the dominoes they were set up as. On top of this lawmakers passed laws that allowed mortgage contracts for people who couldn't live up to them. People like to point the finger at Bush or Clinton, but the last time I checked it was the House and Senate that created and passed law not the President. The President heads up the Executive branch, they execute the laws (and lobby the Congress of course) not make them. It was/is lawmakers (predominantly liberal ones) who think they can man-handle market forces, and we all suffer when it is shown that they can't.

When we have a problem this big it shows we have some fundamental problems. Some possible long term solutions:

The John Linder / Neal Boortz "Fair Tax". Much has been written on the subject but at its core it is more congruent with human psychology. Until you have some determination on the amount you personally pay in taxes, YOU ARE NOT FREE.

Congressional term limits (I'd set it at 14 years.): We have a huge problem with lawmakers doing the wrong thing to fund the next re-election campaign. The aggregation of power also shouldn't be an issue; just because the People of Mass. keep sending Ted Kennedy to the Senate doesn't mean that he should wield more power than any first time senator. They represent a state, and in the Senate the states are supposed to be equal. Get in, serve the public, then go back to your normal life. We shouldn't have a ruling class in this country, and at 300,000,000 people we can find 500 or so to run the top tiers of Washington at any given time. We don't get the best and brightest today, and I think we'd do a lot better if we flowed more people through it.

Per Capita monetary system: The Government should not be able to print money at will. I don't believe the Federal Reserve is a corrupt institution; it employs some very smart people who do some very difficult (and necessary) jobs that we hardly ever see. But I believe that as a nation we should have a money supply that grows and recedes with the population. This is akin to the Gold Standard which failed simply because there was not enough precious metals to back a money supply for the nations (and the World's) expanding population. Figure out how much money we have right now in the system, divide it by the current number of Americans, and lock that number down. Want more money in the system?; prove that the population has grown.

Just a few thoughts....

Bob