Bad reactions to DSLR comments on Reduser

[Andrew T Foster]

Hello,

Finished a commercial recently in Atlanta where I was doing time-lapse with my Canon 1DS MKII using a Zeiss ZF 50mm w/Nikon to Canon adapter from the back of a truck that was traveling on a railroad track.

I took along my RED (demo reel footage - ) as well but found the footage from my Canon gave better time-lapse results. The RED internal intervalometer is a bit limited.

I was "third" unit on the shoot. The first unit was all Canon 5D MKII equipped with Red Rock accessories shooting real-time footage. Footage looked fantastic! I loaned them my Zeiss ZF 100mm Telephone/Makro lens with a Nikon to Canon adapter. AMAZING LENS and the stuff they took with it turned out fantastic.

On the first evening, I setup my RED because I had nothing to do and shot footage of the same stuff they were doing (trains). In the end, they still used the Canon footage because 1) they were familiar with the workflow, 2) they had a day or two turn-around for the first version and didn't want to transcode without a Red Rocket, 3) I don't think the first unit DP would have appreciated it. Haha. They really liked the footage that I showed them and I'm happy because it'll be a great addition to my reel.

I can't say who the commercial was for, but it was _not_ a small company. They were very happy with the final product and all the footage was shot with a Canon 5D MKII and a Canon EOS 1DS MKIII (time-lapse).

These cameras are certainly being used for a lot more than "hobbyists, low-budget indie, student, etc..".

These arguments remind me of when Final Cut Pro came out and every student was now an "editor" and Producers, looking to cut costs, would hire on people with no experience.

One has to go no further than a message board of Colorists also pulling their hair out over their investments and the impending release of DaVinci Resolve. I don't know why this wasn't such an issue when Final Cut Studio included Color, but it seems there is a lot more despair this time out.

I love my RED ONE but there are times when I look at the DSLR's and envy the smaller form factor and weight. Mind you I don't like the form factor itself as it's not great for motion shooting.

You have to wonder how the video camera department of Canon is feeling as the still (and now motion) department must be eating their lunch to some degree. Inter-company warfare? Haha!

Anyhow.. as Vincent said above; no perfect camera for everyone. Why would we want that anyhow? How boring..

Waiting on stage-3 for the epic! Woo hoo!

Best,

ATF

 

[Vladimir Cassel]

Hello,

Finished a commercial recently in Atlanta where I was doing time-lapse with my Canon 1DS MKII using a Zeiss ZF 50mm w/Nikon to Canon adapter from the back of a truck that was traveling on a railroad track.

I took along my RED (demo reel footage - ) as well but found the footage from my Canon gave better time-lapse results. The RED internal intervalometer is a bit limited.

I was "third" unit on the shoot. The first unit was all Canon 5D MKII equipped with Red Rock accessories shooting real-time footage. Footage looked fantastic! I loaned them my Zeiss ZF 100mm Telephone/Makro lens with a Nikon to Canon adapter. AMAZING LENS and the stuff they took with it turned out fantastic.

On the first evening, I setup my RED because I had nothing to do and shot footage of the same stuff they were doing (trains). In the end, they still used the Canon footage because 1) they were familiar with the workflow, 2) they had a day or two turn-around for the first version and didn't want to transcode without a Red Rocket, 3) I don't think the first unit DP would have appreciated it. Haha. They really liked the footage that I showed them and I'm happy because it'll be a great addition to my reel.

I can't say who the commercial was for, but it was _not_ a small company. They were very happy with the final product and all the footage was shot with a Canon 5D MKII and a Canon EOS 1DS MKIII (time-lapse).

These cameras are certainly being used for a lot more than "hobbyists, low-budget indie, student, etc..".

These arguments remind me of when Final Cut Pro came out and every student was now an "editor" and Producers, looking to cut costs, would hire on people with no experience.

One has to go no further than a message board of Colorists also pulling their hair out over their investments and the impending release of DaVinci Resolve. I don't know why this wasn't such an issue when Final Cut Studio included Color, but it seems there is a lot more despair this time out.

I love my RED ONE but there are times when I look at the DSLR's and envy the smaller form factor and weight. Mind you I don't like the form factor itself as it's not great for motion shooting.

You have to wonder how the video camera department of Canon is feeling as the still (and now motion) department must be eating their lunch to some degree. Inter-company warfare? Haha!

Anyhow.. as Vincent said above; no perfect camera for everyone. Why would we want that anyhow? How boring..

Waiting on stage-3 for the epic! Woo hoo!

Best,

ATF

Great to find a RED and DSLR professional here with such a great attitude! I'm sure it's the cause of your success. Stay inspiring!

 

[Tom Lowe]

It seems kind of wimpy to act like drama queens just because Big Bad Jim Jannard said something that made someone's wittle feelings get hurt. Stop bitching and moaning, and start shooting something epic.

 

[Steve Das]

There are a host of reasons why rental is not always feasible. Location is one of them, this always seems to surprise LA-based filmmakers.

Yes..the rental market in the future will be much..much smaller than it
has been in the past.

Red One put a dent in camera rentals. But Epic at it's price point will
add another dent. Why in the world rent when you can buy the most
advanced video camera at such a price. Rentals are a pain since you
have divert production to schedule pick-up and check-out..insurance..
and then return it all. And sure there lots of rentals in L.A. but with
the traffic and all it still winds up being a day long chore.

Guess prime lenses still have to be rented...but
with this large HDSLR market we are just beginning to see cheaper
priced quality primes. And of course now many small companies making
small cranes..jibs..sliders..etc. for camera support etc.

 

[Jay Gannon]

Heheh well any respect for EOSHD.com I had is gone, I invited him to our new screening room for a head to head footage comparison in 4k and 1080, for free out of my own time, and he deleted my comment and barred me from his site...
Some people just don't want to have anyone question their facts.

 

[David Mullen ASC]

Red One put a dent in camera rentals. But Epic at it's price point will
add another dent. Why in the world rent when you can buy the most
advanced video camera at such a price. Rentals are a pain since you
have divert production to schedule pick-up and check-out..insurance..
and then return it all. And sure there lots of rentals in L.A. but with
the traffic and all it still winds up being a day long chore..

If you are making a single production of a fixed shooting length, then renting may make more sense that buying an entire package including lenses, support gear, etc. and then having to resell all of that at the end. Plus even owners need insurance.

Let's say you just need a Red One for a one week project with a set of Master Primes and an Optimo zoom -- does it really make sense to go out and buy all of that stuff for a short shoot?

And if you are talking about a two-month feature shoot, what does it matter if it takes a day to pick it up and return it?

 

[Jonathan Stevenson]

It seems kind of wimpy to act like drama queens just because Big Bad Jim Jannard said something that made someone's wittle feelings get hurt. Stop bitching and moaning, and start shooting something epic.

:thumbsup:

 

[Zakaree Sandberg]

glass is where people should be investing anyways.. camera systems.. ESPECIALLY NOW! are like computers.. a new one will come out every 7 months.. and then your outdated.. lenses will NEVER be outdated

 

[Aaron Newsome]

I love how many people think it's so easy to rent gear. If you live where they have gear, then yes it is easy to rent gear. I've worked on music videos in Biloxi, MS and Kansas City, Mo and another we were planning in Fort Meyers, FL. You'd be really surprised how limited the rental market are in places like this when you need have lots of stuff.

I ended up renting NOTHING and shooting only with the gear I could fly with me. Don't forget, if you're a young filmmaker and you look like it, people will be hesitant to rent to you. That's discouraging to a young filmmaker.

Don't just think you can go to the local RED shack and check out a camera like a library book. Having low cost options that make good pictures is the best thing that's ever happened for some people.

 

[Dan Kanes]

glass is where people should be investing anyways.. camera systems.. ESPECIALLY NOW! are like computers.. a new one will come out every 7 months.. and then your outdated.. lenses will NEVER be outdated

Plenoptic Lens

hee hee.

Actually couldn't agree with you more.

As far as the HDSLR bashing - I think the thing that most of the HDSLR blog sites got wrong was that Mr. Jannard wasn't bashing hdslr SHOOTERS
he was bashing Canon for claiming that you can pull a legit (in terms of resolution and quality) Still from the HDSLR motion stream...

He was saying Canon should be embarassed for misleading consumers. Canon Should be embarassed. They suck in terms of public relations. To play games with people the way they did by delaying the release of manual control, audio control, and 24p framerate on the 5DII and T1i to sell more of their other cameras was such a lame, BLATANT corporate manipulation. Their lack of transparency and inability to connect with ME as a cinematographer and film maker basically lost me as a CORE customer.

Eff Canon as a company. Will I buy another Canon in the future? probably as a high risk crash cam so that none of my red gear gets wrecked doing crazy stunts, at least until I can get a scarlet with a mack camera accidental damage warranty for stuff like that. rogar-Smoke(DBG):

Peace, and have one of these:
:chillpill:

 

[Jacek Zakowicz]

no offense Dan

no offense Dan

To play games with people the way they did by delaying the release of manual control, audio control, and 24p framerate on the 5DII and T1i to sell more of their other cameras was such a lame, BLATANT corporate manipulation.

I love how some think that Canon has an "evil"department doing nothing but figuring out how to screw people all day long. Really?! Seriously?!! I'm all for a good conspiracy but c'mon.... They are just a huge company that was ambushed by 10M unit sales of their cameras because of what they thought was a "little" video recording feature they added. Now they are trying to figure out how to do it right and it's taking time. Never in a million years are they going to make a product competing with RED- they are just not in this market- way too small. I think that people that are trying to compare the two have a very little understanding of our industry.:beatdeadhorse5:

 

[Rick Burnett]

Plenoptic Lens

hee hee.

Actually couldn't agree with you more.

As far as the HDSLR bashing - I think the thing that most of the HDSLR blog sites got wrong was that Mr. Jannard wasn't bashing hdslr SHOOTERS
he was bashing Canon for claiming that you can pull a legit (in terms of resolution and quality) Still from the HDSLR motion stream...

He was saying Canon should be embarassed for misleading consumers. Canon Should be embarassed. They suck in terms of public relations. To play games with people the way they did by delaying the release of manual control, audio control, and 24p framerate on the 5DII and T1i to sell more of their other cameras was such a lame, BLATANT corporate manipulation. Their lack of transparency and inability to connect with ME as a cinematographer and film maker basically lost me as a CORE customer.

Eff Canon as a company. Will I buy another Canon in the future? probably as a high risk crash cam so that none of my red gear gets wrecked doing crazy stunts, at least until I can get a scarlet with a mack camera accidental damage warranty for stuff like that. rogar-Smoke(DBG):

Peace, and have one of these:
:chillpill:

Well I never felt mislead by Canon with my 7D, HV30 or HF200 purchase. Anyone who blindly buys a product based on marketing deserves what they get. There is this WHOLE HUGE internet with thousands of people who've already written about what you want probably and it doesn't take long to start getting MULTIPLE opinions. EVEN MORE, every store I have been to allowed me to use the camera first, record footage and take it home. AND I can return my Canon if I didn't like how it operated.

When I bought a D90, I did not research as deeply and I watched all these Vimeo videos on how great it was. It was MY fault for not playing with one first. But in the end, I ended up keeping it for a stills camera because it is really good for that (and now my GF takes pictures through her telescope with it).

 

[Dan Kanes]

I love how some think that Canon has an "evil"department doing nothing but figuring out how to screw people all day long. Really?! Seriously?!! I'm all for a good conspiracy but c'mon.... They are just a huge company that was ambushed by 10M unit sales of their cameras because of what they thought was a "little" video recording feature they added. Now they are trying to figure out how to do it right and it's taking time. Never in a million years are they going to make a product competing with RED- they are just not in this market- way too small. I think that people that are trying to compare the two have a very little understanding of our industry.:beatdeadhorse5:

Not at all offended - I'm the first person to shoot a feature film on the 5D2, and I followed that up with the first feature film shot on the 7D.

For someone at Canon Marketing to pretend he's never heard of me after emailing and calling Directly to his phone line at Canon asking for support or even acknowledgement that I am attempting to use one of their pieces of equipment in a pioneering manner is simply DISRESPECT and DISCOURTESY - not at all a conspiracy theory or even far fetched.

At the very least Jim or Jarred would tell me to go fuck off instead of ignoring me and pretending to be interested in what I have to say at a Birns and Sawyer event and then not returning phone calls or emails when I try to facilitate the use of their products on a Large Scale Commercial production. (yes someone in Canon Marketing actually did this).

So in conclusion - it's my pioneering use of HDSLR cameras that actually LED to me being a Reduser and Red Owner.

Why use a Dumbed Down consumer camera for a professional job, if the time and budget is there to use an actual Digital Cinema camera like the R1. Believe me - I used to be on the other side of the argument, and ultimately to me there is NO ARGUMENT. Use the best tool for the job, and make $$$. End of story.:lol:

 

[Dan Kanes]

Well I never felt mislead by Canon with my 7D, HV30 or HF200 purchase. Anyone who blindly buys a product based on marketing deserves what they get. There is this WHOLE HUGE internet with thousands of people who've already written about what you want probably and it doesn't take long to start getting MULTIPLE opinions. EVEN MORE, every store I have been to allowed me to use the camera first, record footage and take it home. AND I can return my Canon if I didn't like how it operated.

When I bought a D90, I did not research as deeply and I watched all these Vimeo videos on how great it was. It was MY fault for not playing with one first. But in the end, I ended up keeping it for a stills camera because it is really good for that (and now my GF takes pictures through her telescope with it).

Love my 7D.

Hate Canon and their consumer relations.

I think the 7D is a GREAT camera for what it is, and I have no illusion that it is anything different than what I use it for.

Jacek - you have a t1i, right?
and it Records 1920x1080 @ 20fps right? Any idea why it doesn't record 1280x720@ 24fps or 1920x1080@24fps?

Can you tell me why it does that? Any clue? Because they would sell LESS 7D's and almost NO t2i's if the T1i could shoot 24fps, and have manual control. Marketing, not conspiracy. Marketing.

Do you think that it's lack of manual control and normal NTSC or PAL frame rate has anything to do with Hardware limitation? Really? if you do then you are WRONG. Because the T1i uses the same basic chipset as the T2i. It's not a conspiracy, it's called Tiered Marketing.

Why does the T2i lack 1/3 stop iso increments? Because it would be too similar in video functionality to the 7D and there would be little incentive for "video market" people to spend the extra money and get a 7D or 5DII.

Rick - please remember that not everyone is as smart as us, and marketing actually does indeed affect some people's brains.

Best wishes to all.

 

[Stephen Matthews]

I don't know I'm not saying they did but for a company looking to make more money it looks like that is what they did, delay firmware updates so as not to cripple the sales of their other cams. The deliberately crippling certain features in the t2i so that the 7d still has a shelf life (not weather proofing). Now maybe they aren't and if they aren't that doesn't seem like good business to me (well not "good" business but efficient business).

Aside from that I think everyone need to grow up. I feel like it's a group of kids at school arguing over what is better the ps3(old expensive model) or a wii, and resorting to name calling and lashing out violently at anyone who challenges their great device. People really need to handle their biases and and understand and respect other peoples decisions and choices. If you don't agree with them, find a constructive way of dealing with it. Jim's comments may seem off hand and rude but they are only made that way when you have doubts in your own mind already(about your camera..or you who knows). Who cares what others think of your camera do you get images you like out of it, are you more free to make movies, then great go out and shoot.

The blessing and the curse is these new cams have saturated the indi and film school market, giving many young shooters far better quality and control than they have ever had before (to buy) and at a very cheap price. Thing is most people who can only afford a sub 1k camera are just starting out and very naive to the world of filmmaking. So they are going to fight for and defend their new found place on the totem pole of filmmaking. these camera are good for teaching you lenses and other exposure things, but if you want quality to work with and ease of shooting I would put some more in and get an hd camcorder. This is just my opinion but I have both a dslr and a camcorder, I wish my cam was as small as my dslr because even though it is only 720p I would rather use it then the dslr. Now this is just my opinion doesn't mean I'm entirely wrong when it comes to how someone else likes to do things.

the thing is both sides have points that are right and both have one's that are way out in left field. when you get down to it with line skipping and up rezing the cannons just don't have the resolution for certain epic shots. Where the red one/mx (only available camera) has a few issues, over heating, size, some would say work flow. The reality is like most conflicts in this world there should be no conflict just educated discussion about weighing out the options and what camera is suited for what situations the best.

to future filled with better camera's and less restrained artists

peace and happy filming

 

[Craig W. Bickerstaff]

True, but until the Scarlet ships, DSLR's are the best that most can afford.

You know it's entirely possible that even after scarlet ships this quote "DSLR's are the best that most can afford." may still be true.

 

[David Rasberry]

I love how some think that Canon has an "evil"department doing nothing but figuring out how to screw people all day long. Really?! Seriously?!! I'm all for a good conspiracy but c'mon.... They are just a huge company that was ambushed by 10M unit sales of their cameras because of what they thought was a "little" video recording feature they added. Now they are trying to figure out how to do it right and it's taking time. Never in a million years are they going to make a product competing with RED- they are just not in this market- way too small. I think that people that are trying to compare the two have a very little understanding of our industry.:beatdeadhorse5:

Exactly. Well put.
I think Jim's comment was largely taken out of context. He was talking about extracting still frames from Canon video not the video per se. There is no comparison in quality between a Canon video frame and an Canon raw still frame.

 

[Jacek Zakowicz]

Easy Tiger!!!!!

Easy Tiger!!!!!

Sorry Dan, didn't mean to work you up like that:devil:
I just think that you give them too much credit. 7D is newer than T1i and uses two Digic IV processors. Apparently they couldn't extract the speed out of one at the time.
T2i is newer than 7D and achieves it with one processor. There may be marketing involved but mostly this is normal product evolution cycle- nothing out of ordinary for engineering.As for manual controls out of 10M sales how many people do you think can use manual controls properly? I think giving manual controls to such a popular consumer product is asking for trouble from manufacturer's POV. Support lines and mailboxes flooded with questions, cameras sent for warranty repairs with wrong settings combo, you get the idea...
Just ask Jarred- he's so tired of some of the questions and complaints he gets every time I talk to him.
Ultimately Canon picks what THEY think is right for THEIR product- much like RED...:thumbsup:

 

[Dan Kanes]

Sorry Dan, didn't mean to work you up like that:devil::thumbsup:

It's okay Jacek - I'll still send people to you to get their gear repaired like I've been doing. There is plenty of room for different opinions and still being friends.

P.S. I'd love to try one of your LCD-VF systems sometime, and I think with the Epic/Scarlet 2.8" (or whatever small LCD) you will have a new market for small LCD-VF adapters for those who can't afford an EVF.

 

[Tony Lorentzen]

Everyone has an opinion about HDSLRs and the same goes for RED. I meet a lot of people who are bashing the RED ONE calling it a beta-camera and worse - some of them are people used to work with film-cameras but most of them turn out to be people that just don't know what they're talking about or plain and simple have no (or very little) experience with RED. They tend to adapt someone else's opinion without forming their own out of personal experience. That's just sad.

All cameras have limitations - some more on the technical side of things, some financial and some ergonomical (feel free to add more...).

If shooting with HDSLRs floats your boat and live up to your own (and your client's) expectations, then by all means shoot with them. If you need more - and you or your project can afford it them get or hire something else - RED, Arri or whatever gets the job done.

Let's all try to remember that cameras don't make movies - people do