Audio Feature / Specification Request

[Neil Uchitel]

And the congregation of other post sound guys said: "Amen!"

I for one, speaking from a sound guy's perspective (both production an post production), I'd like to see a RED Recorder, something completely separate from the camera. Lets face it. If you are shooting at 3-5k, dealing with moving cameras, and all so often need 6-8 channels on set, you need audio dealt with separately. All of this effort to
What i'd like to see:
Clean, QUIET pre-amps.
Good limiters on each channel.
SIMPLE.
time-code, obvious.

Let me give you some perspective, from a post sound guy's viewpoint.
1. Editors and DP's don't give the respect that is deserved to audio. Some do, for sure, but not many. They, understandably, are more visual that aural artists. It's not their concern. In my experience, they have more to learn about audio... Thus, in post, audio handled by these two generally suffers.

2. When it comes time to load/transcode into the computer, more often than not, is done by overworked assistant editors (some of the hardest working people in post), or even worse, interns. Audio gets easily flubbed. 95% of the time on feature films, audio that is given to the sound department in the form of OMF is dropped in favor of what the recordist on location records. (most of what is recived from the picture departments are mixdowns. We sound editors want to work with the split tracks, (read booms and lavs).

3. Location recordist do a wonderful job. Their equipment is better. They are very familiar with it.

4. Wild tracks. Nothing makes the job of a sound editor easier (besides well recorded production audio) than the wild track that saves the day. Wind machines running during that critical scene? a quick once over just off set while the talent is still in character... saves a costly ADR session. That unique location or object? An observant recordist gets it wild. And don't forget room tone!!!

5. Sound Effects gathering. The best sound is does not come from a CD. It is recorded. A cost effective recorder would stimulate people to record more. Movie sound would improve.

My point is this:

I really think that if you are shooting with the quality of a RED, don't let the audio suffer. Handle it separately, with a mix-down going to the camera for sync. I know this might be a bit idealistic, but we're Pro's.



So Jannard and crew, if you are listening, MAKE A RED RECORDER!!!!!! Do what you did with video, and apply it to audio. Absolute quality and performance; industry changing price. I'd buy 2!!!

 

[David Battistella]

1. Pots and visible meters.

2. Hardware switch for mic/line.

3. I would like to see it calibrated to +4dBu, with 18dB of headroom above that level.
That way, normal pro mixers and preamps can feed optimal levels.

4. Mic input should feature phantom power that functions with most 48v mics.

5. Really good A/D converters

Clearly normal XLR inputs are more universal, but if you run out of room, the minis can work.

Recorded levels should translate directly (the same level dBFS) to edit systems. I don't know if this is the recording algorithm or Red Alert that accomplishes this.

As Hans pointed out, this is basically the input section of any camcorder. Should be quite easy, with lots of tried and true models to follow.

I completely second this!

 

[Tim Lawrence]

all if these have been said but I heartily concur

full size XLRs

all physical knobs and switches

Full sized 1/4" headphone jack

Audio via Analogue, AES/EBU + G/bit ethernet

I also support, the idea of the standard audio module, the more feature rich module

and even the idea of a really feature rich module that doesn't attach to the camera for special situations that require the best in audio versatility.

 

[Martin Weiss]

On the Pro Audio module, it would be great if there was a place on the right side of the module that would display the audio levels for all channels, along with a knob and phantom power switch. To cut down on knobs/switches, it might be an idea to have one button/switch where one choses the channel to control, and then a single audio level/phantom power selector.

 

[Mark O'Russa]

Borrowing from several manufacturers...

Hard:

From my Sound Devices 442 manual:
XLR line level input:

• Impedance: 16K
• Type: transformer balanced (While transformer balanced inputs are fantastic and work with digital signals, I don't know of a camera that has them. They would also increase the weight of the camera. Optional.)
• For use with: <2k ohm outputs
• Max input level: +40 dBu (80 Vrms)

XLR mic level input:

• Impedance: 2K
• Type: transformer balanced
• For use with: <600 ohm mics
• Max input level: 0 dBu (0.78 Vrms)

Here's a tip about phantom powering for microphones: http://www.lectrosonics.com/faq/faq1byref.php?id=50

Soft:

XLR inputs:
This is preferred for the strength of the connector and compatibility with most beta snakes and wireless receivers.

By musicelect at 2009-11-23

Dedicated audio meters:

• one scale per channel
• horizontally displayed
• located near the audio ins/outs
• hardware operated
• always active when camera is powered on

I would prefer a plain LCD with switchable backlight ala Sony and Panasonic. As the RED is a digital camera, the meters should be on the digital scale (0db = 0dBFS = max level). ~20 segments with a definitive hash mark at -20db with lesser marks at -30db, -12db, -6db. Industry-wide, tone is set to -20db, which means -20db from peak level. When I flip my tone switch on my 442 I would adjust the camera's input trims so the tone hits -20db on the RED's scale. The 442's max out of +20db would then match the max input level on the RED.

5 pin XLR audio output:
This, too, is common among Sony and Panasonic cams.

• +4 dBu out

By musicelect at 2009-11-23



Mark O'Russa

 

[Stefan Christou]

Soft

I'd like a cheap audio in box for Scarlet that has 2 XLR inputs, provides phantom power, has sound quality comparable to a Sony Minidisc player, has real nobs and is under $300.

Something really basic for those situations where all you can afford or need is something really basic. And make just wider than an XLR port and able to be mounted with cable facing up, down, left or right.

S

 

[Stuart English]

Audio Specs

Audio Specs

Thanks Mark

 

[Matthew Freed]

RED should look to the Sound Devices 7 series and the Aaton Cantar X2 as the standards for audio quality, usability, reliability, and general good ideas.

Hard switches/knobs for 48V and 12V T, line vs mic level, XLR inputs, 1/4" headphone jack, audio circuitry that doesn't completely suck, accurate time code read out on the monitor, quick, accurate audio LED meters on each audio channel, a partridge in a pear tree, two French hens, BNC time code connectors...

And even with all of the good suggestions everyone is throwing out there it still takes a good, qualified, experienced sound person to choose the correct microphones, place the lavs in appropriate locations on or off the talent, and know how to ride the faders. And that's not even getting in to phase issues, wild sound, or every thing else the visually oriented people don't understand about audio!

 

[Mikael Lubtchansky]

Activate silent fan mode button to check room noise

Activate silent fan mode button to check room noise

small feature request (already posted in another thread about built 21 but might have been lost in the noise...) :

it applies mostly to RED ONE but maybe also to Epic/Scarlet if they use a similar fan/cooling system (silent while recording but noisy in between takes) except they will need much less time to turn off and back on...

Can we have a way to get into a temporary 'silent mode' just to let the sound guys check the room noise or record ambient noise (same fan level as it is when we start recording) without making a dummy camera clip or turning camera off.

To avoid any heat issue it would only be temporary and revert back to noisy / fan ON after 15 or 60 secs.

Thanks for considering adding this into the RED ONE sound menu or as a user button...

Mikael

 

[mike filippov]

audio only mode

audio only mode

during every scene there are at least 2 instances where I need to record audio only:

1. room tone
2. wild lines

when not recording double system, we roll the camera framing a shot of the microphone to let the post guys know this is a wild track.

with the possibility of high data rates and limited hard drive space it would be nice to not have to record an image in these instances...

any chance of an audio only recording mode?

 

[CurtisHight]

Soft comments

Soft comments

Audio recording is strongly benefited by having a flat surface with a mechanical control interface. The Scarlet doesn't have very much flat space to offer and that's an understandable trade-off with it's size. Hence, I want the brain to communicate beautifully with external sound recorders and allow me to add audio options through a dedicated off-camera audio recorder, not by adding I/O modules to the camera; I want the camera to be as small and light as possible so I'm not eager to add modules to it.

If Red designed the off-camera audio recorder might audio and video be able to synchronize in some improved fashion? I'm not asking for a Red product, but I do wonder if they teamed up with Sound Devices what they could produce: the "Sound Devices Red" line of sound recorders with Light Peak, able to record both audio and video streams to an SSD module attached to the audio recorder. Maybe by the summer of 2011 we can have such a product! Or maybe in another year Light Peak will become the docking interconnect for the iPad and external drives will be supported, and the iPad screen could provide a touch screen interface surface with both audio and video monitoring. (Mechanical controls have traditionally been much preferred, but maybe with sufficient surface area and quality a touch screen can be as good, or even preferable.)

The Red team has pointed out that they will have balanced audio running over 3.5 mm stereo connectors. I trust them to have weighed the dynamics, but I'm a little wistful about the absence on the brain of mini-XLR or 1/4-inch TRS connectors for audio input and 1/4-inch TRS connectors for monitoring, cheerfully wishing for the best long term durability, and to alleviate the cumbersome cable play brought about by working with a mixed group of 3.5 mm and 1/4-inch audio connectors on my headphones (my Sound Devices MM-1 has a 1/4-inch TRS connector for monitoring, and it's much better to move up than down in size on my headphone connectors, one of which is 3.5 mm and the other is 1/4-inch).

 

[Bob Gruen]

Stuart just a quick question please ! if this is not possible please excuse me; I am just thinking out loud and am not an audio person.
What about creating a wireless i/o module for the Red camera that could connect to a remote i/o device or module with all the above features. This would eliminate the need for direct audio connection on the camera itself, with a range of say 100 feet the operator could if they wish control the audio in run and gun documentary situations or in a professional film shoot could hire a sound man. It would also mean the unit could be physically bigger and contain quality pre amps and controls without compromising the audio quality. The I/O Module on the Red would in fact be a Receiver with different channels recording audio directly to the camera, no more sync problems. Not sure how the audio levels would work, or if the audio quality could be maintained, like I said this is just a thought and may get some audio guys thinking.

Regards
Till

tillHavis, from an audio guy's perspective, there are so many reasons why that wouldn't work (frequency block choice, interference from the camera, etc), but the main one is that there is already so much great wireless audio gear out there. RED audio has weaknesses that aren't related to wired/wireless issues, and those weaknesses are not eliminated by creating a wireless module. It's a much better use of their resources to just make a clip to hang a great lectrosonics receiver on it, than to make their own wireless unit. RED audio could use better A/D converters, better preamps, etc and better software control on the audio board they've already got.

Neil,

Why not? Red has shown that they are not afraid of out-of-the-box thinking.

Why not make the sound section a 2 piece unit that can connect via Bluetooth or cable if there are RF issues. The remote sound 'brain' can have all the controls that we are used to on the Sound Devices products as well as a CF card to cache the digitized data. Push record on the Epic and the sound is digitized, recorded to the local cache, and forwarded to the camera. Push record again to stop the record and if the camera needs it for some reason the cache is re-synched to the cam's file. The beauty of this setup is that it is strictly a small data cable (USB?) between the sound 'brain' in the sound bag and the receiver section. Might not even need a receiver section, maybe just software that drives the I/O module differently. If so the cabled method might be able to work with a Red One as it has a USB port that is ready to go.

I would think that you could get a lot of Epic owners to pony up around $5000 for a solution such as this...

Bob

 

[David Battistella]

during every scene there are at least 2 instances where I need to record audio only:

1. room tone
2. wild lines

when not recording double system, we roll the camera framing a shot of the microphone to let the post guys know this is a wild track.

with the possibility of high data rates and limited hard drive space it would be nice to not have to record an image in these instances...

any chance of an audio only recording mode?

I second this. I made this request a long time ago in some thread, but in documentary sometimes you just want to record without the picture. I do carry and H4 for this purpose now, but in remote area's it might be nice to have this option.

I am guessing that an R3D file requires picture and this might be one bottleneck.

 

[Bruce Allen]

OK, my hard requests:

1. Since we're shooting 4 or 5K for future-proofing and VFX benefits, we might as well shoot 48fps or 72fps in 3D for the same reason. Please make sure that we can record to Epic / Scarlet's sound inputs at the same time (unlike now, where Varispeed turns sound recording off).

2. Yes - audio-only recording option

3. Please check new Red LCDs and components so they don't make buzzing sounds in microphones. The original 5.6" LCD made a horrible buzzing sound every time the mic got within 2 yards of it. I was using a Sanken CS3e connected straight into a Sound Devices 702T.

soft requests:

1. Manual levels controls, good headphone outputs and great low noise pre-amps would be great. Or just make things super cheap (reference quality only) and we'll continue to use dual-system.

Bruce Allen
www.boacinema.com

 

[tillHavis]

Just wondering if Red has incorporated some of these features in the new Pro Audio Model ? or is their a link to the specs somewhere ?

 

[David Battistella]

I'll add one thing:

How about being able to set the audio levels with the touchscreen? instead of visible pots, like maybe you could drag your finger to set the level.

David