Attitude adjustment...

[Terry VerHaar]

If the Red user base rapidly expands as a result of the price reductions:
+) More people will have direct experience of Red and its workflow.
+) More producers will consider Red, and likely choose them in multi camera shots.
+) Support for Red will pop up all over the world where this camera has never reached before.
+) With a larger hobbyist community - There will be more weight on NLE maker to deliver Red solutions.
+) Red would have a new market to sell an enhanced Red Rocket.
+) It will prompt more 3rd party accessories to be designed - and likely at a lower price point.

Final thoughts: These are amazing times. We are all in great debt to everyone at Red who has devoted themselves to not just making amazing technology - but who catalyse our very dreams.

AJ

+10

Good thoughts.

 

[Eryc Tramonn]

It's funny how familiar all this stuff is from the world generally.
Apparently new RED customers have been sitting on the side "waiting for handouts" it would appear.
This night has really opened my eyes, and not just about cameras.

"nauseating" is an understatement compared to how I feel right now.
I don't get angry easily but...

The truth about people hurts.

love

Freya

HANDOUT? Ha. Freya, anyone who thinks or utters that can kiss our collective asses.

 

[Tyrone Braithwaite]

People know the price of everything and the value of nothing.

 

[Elsie N]

As an Indie shooter, in my dreams I have been dreaming about going into my banker's office for a loan and when he asks what I've got for collateral I would say "Well, I've got $70,000 worth of RED brains." To which he replies "In 50s terms that would have been a lot, but this is 2012 and only $70,000 worth of brains with inflammation means you are too dumb and too sick for a loan." After the repricing that dream banker would probably put his hand on my shoulder, offer me sympathy for my affliction while steering me toward the door.

So in my conscious state, when I go to apply for a loan there will be no mention of brains, only that I am offering as collateral the same model cameras that the Hobbit and Spiderman 4 et al were shot on.

Actually, I do not like to float a loan except in an emergency and try to buy anything on the Pay-as-I-go plan. This means I am less effected than some here who bought their cameras as a business investment expecting to make a living off it. I truly hope their fears are unfounded and that their businesses will actually grow through more volume as the professional and semi-pro industry becomes aware of the great bargain having Red cameras on their shoot provides.

A tsunami hit Japan. A Perfect Storm hit New York. We live on tectonic plates no matter where we reside. My personal mantra is to build in as much certainty as I can, but be prepared for any uncertainty that arises.

 

[Ces Peynetti]

When I woke up this morning I was thinking, what if RED would have gone the complete opposite way? Instead of reducing the prices they just decide to double their prices. Last night’s announcement were to be an Epic brain for $70,000 instead of $35,000 this is to compete against the likes of the Alexa, you know, because they want to show they have the same value or something like that.

If this had been the case, would all the people that are now disappointed due to the price drop be celebrating? What would they think of this investment they made?

If they are in the rental business would they start charging $2,500 a day instead of $800? Or for those that were considering on reselling at some point, would they resell their camera for $50,000, which is much more than what they paid for a NEW brain? Or would they be fair, and not raise their prices because they are only interested in recovering the investment they initially paid?

What would they say to a renter/buyer like me? “I’m sorry kid, I know the camera was much cheaper last week, but the cameras have now gone up with prices. Times are tough.

What about the guy that had been saving his hard earned cash for a very long time and maybe needed to save some more for just a few more months in order to buy their camera? To wake up and realize his dream is now out of reach again? Now he can’t even get a used camera for nearly the price of what the new one used to cost.

There are a lot of us out there who don’t see a camera as just a money making box. It’s something that lets us create, lets us express ourselves, helps us learn and push ourselves. Sure, we find ways to make money out of it, but sometimes that is NOT the bigger picture.

We DO need to adjust to the times. Sometimes things happen where you win, sometimes you loose, but to blame a company to try to be a part of the BIGGER picture (no pun intended) Sure, it sucks for some, but you are a handful among thousands. You probably don’t mean to be selfish, in fact I’m sure non of you are, but it does come across that way to some, which is why you may get attacked.

Jim, Jarred, and the rest of the RED crew, you guys understand what most of us need. I really thank you for that. The decision you guys made yesterday is gonna give a great opportunity to a lot of dreamers. I hope you won’t find the attacks confusing or be disappointed by some of your customer’s reactions. You guys have to do what you guys think is best. The good thing is that I’m certain is when you guys make those decisions, not only do you have your business in mind, but you have me in mind. That’s why I wear this RED hat I’m wearing right now everywhere I go.

 

[Scott Summers]

I just bought a Scarlet 3 weeks ago for full price. Now you've discounted it $10,000! Where does that leave me? My resale value in the toilet along with my rental pricing. And you're offering me a lousy $1,000 discount on my next accessory purchase as compensation? I just bought $30,000 of Red accessories, don't expect to be buying anything else in the near future. I've been shooting with Red since it came out, finally decided to buy one and now am feeling the opposite of a loyal customer. Thanks for nothing. Sincerely, Thomas Burstyn

Could you write out your math here? I'm confused as to where you lost $10k? Correct me if I'm wrong but I bought my Scarlet brain for I think $9750. It's now $7950 or something. $2k drop right? You're getting $1k of the $2k back. Why are you crying about that?

I just bought an Epic, and when it arrived this morning, it was worth about $5k less (after $4k accessories refund and $6k Dragon upgrade cos I spent over $50k). I can't return it for a refund cos I have a number of jobs lined up. Without it I lose money. I ain't crying. It's a tool. It's making me money and giving me a job. Sh*t happens in life. You think Canon or Sony or any other big corporate mentality would even give a second thought to giving you anything back?

Chin up sunshine, tomorrow's a new day.

 

[Eryc Tramonn]

Actually, I do not like to float a loan except in an emergency and try to buy anything on the Pay-as-I-go plan. This means I am less effected than some here who bought their cameras as a business investment expecting to make a living off it. I truly hope their fears are unfounded and that their businesses will actually grow through more volume as the professional and semi-pro industry becomes aware of the great bargain having Red cameras on their shoot provides.

+1

No one is wishing any ill-will on anyone here. Quite the opposite.

I want to see businesses that made an investment flourish. Seriously. As a business person, I'm in a similar boat. But then we are ALL BUSINESSES TO THE IRS.

But there is something far more important in my mind; I want to see new filmmakers rise because of their new, unprecedented access to tools once attainable by only a few. The day is fast approaching where "television" will be the Internet, and traditional broadcast avenues will air material from the web. Oh wait. That's already the case. It's only going to get better.

See the possibilities rather than focus on the limitations. If given the choice, why focus on the negative. The positives are so much more rewarding.

 

[Freya]

People know the price of everything and the value of nothing.

Dorian Grey! Great Quote! Spot on!

love

Freya

 

[Mike P.]

Hey Jim,

Is 4.5k WS (4480x1920) at 24-30fps for Scarlet-X being considered by chance?

I know it's not straightforward/easy, regardless of the resolution being less per frame than 4k (4096x2160), but it'd be nice to know if it's even being looked at as an option.

 

[Nikhil Kamkolkar]

+1

No one is wishing any ill-will on anyone here. Quite the opposite.

It'd help if you toned down your delirious laughter in some of your posts.

I'm an indie filmmaker who bought an EPIC on a credit card loan. My goals for the purchase were clear and rentals was never a core element. But a big safety net was that if things went downhill for me (who's saying it can't in this economy), then I could sell the camera and pay off much of the loan. That safety net is gone for me.

For others, its worse.

I'm an eternal outsider. I like disruption. I relate to RED. My first feature was shot on an ARRI BL3 and 35mm film. I swore never again. RED enabled me to keep that promise to myself. I have an EPIC-X, and will continue to invest in the RED ecosystem (as long as they don't become like Apple, ever).

All that said, I'm not going to go around laughing at the pain (legitimate pain) others might be feeling.

For all the advice being thrown around here asking people to stop whining, let me add one too - stop laughing at others and go place an order. Heck, for TWO EPICs, not just one. And go on your merry way.

Cool?

 

[Freya]

I ain't crying. It's a tool. It's making me money and giving me a job.

damn straight, some people don't know when they got it good!!!

The price reductions will end up being good for EVERYBODY but those who choose to look for bad things.
If you look hard enough for the bad stuff you will surely find it.

Growth in a community with a shared interest is good for everyone in that community.

love

Freya

 

[Tom Lowe]

Tom, we have been in perfect sync lately. Nauseating is right.

I went to USC film, graduating in '99. We were the last class to shoot Super 8, and 16 for god sake. I have always been a geek, and pretty tech oriented, so I had very specific ideas about how I wanted a camera to function. I too spent years waiting for the RIGHT tool, and it was based on the exact same requirements. I had to be able to afford it, and it had to be cinema quality. I was so into the thought of shooting 35mm, at one point I penned an homage to Chris Marker's La Jetée, so I could use a still camera for capture.

It didn't take a great deal to figure out what the perfect camera would look like. But it was a pipe dream -- the "consumer" was consistently throttled, and the bigger companies were historically more concerned with their own interests than the interests of their customer. Uncompressed, high res territory was mostly reserved for a very small cache of individuals able to afford the high costs associated with a traditional film chain. And if you've been in it...you know that statement has nothing to do with "conspiracy theory," "poverty mentality," or otherwise. It's just a cold, harsh truth.

Anyway, like you, I knew the camera industry was dogging it. I was never going to purchase anything from a major manufacturer. I was resigned to renting and playing with other stuff along the way. At times, whatever I could get my hands. Because of this, I feel pretty comfortable irrespective of the tool -- iPhone, Epic...it's all the same now. And I don't mean that in a pejorative sense, nor am I comparing the devices capabilities. No, the thing that matters most is the person/people operating that gear. And it goes beyond mere technical understanding of a subject. There is a hard won philosophical understanding/component that is impossible to impart to anyone who does not get it. And a person can only be lucky to glean it with time. But that is true of life, and not just filmmaking.

Ultimately, it's all about learning and the journey. And the legacy we leave behind. Time is a very relative thing, and in the big scheme of things, we're already gone. So how do you want to be remembered? Once you start to consider that, hopefully you begin to focus on the positives, rather than being consumed by the hoarder, greed-based mentality that seems to affect a lot of people on this planet.

Agreed.

 

[Asif Limbada]

Too much whining vs Pro-RED defensiveness around here. I think people are upset because, they took the plunge with the EPICs with the "standard" prices they value of the cameras will remain the same, but the specs will always be top.

I am sure the new Scarlet buyers are the worse hit. They have have spend USD 10K+ for the body, now they can add USD 9K+ and get a superior camera.

I have no worries with any of it. Like many on the forums, saying people don't come to me because of the camera . However, it does show the "Attitude Adjustment" that Jannard was talking about.

Just a suggestion to the RED's marketing team, take a note from other electronics manufacturers, they stick to the price from the start. But what would I know, I think there is a bigger plan of RED to stay in the competitive race, since every other camera companies are going 4K.

To end it all, exciting times, I might just buy 1 more and average it out

But yeah, a discount on the DRAGON update would be make all of us happy. hehehe

 

[Alex Kiritz]

It'd help if you toned down your delirious laughter in some of your posts.

I'm an indie filmmaker who bought an EPIC on a credit card loan. My goals for the purchase were clear and rentals was never a core element. But a big safety net was that if things went downhill for me (who's saying it can't in this economy), then I could sell the camera and pay off much of the loan. That safety net is gone for me.

For others, its worse.

I'm an eternal outsider. I like disruption. I relate to RED. My first feature was shot on an ARRI BL3 and 35mm film. I swore never again. RED enabled me to keep that promise to myself. I have an EPIC-X, and will continue to invest in the RED ecosystem (as long as they don't become like Apple, ever).

All that said, I'm not going to go around laughing at the pain (legitimate pain) others might be feeling.

For all the advice being thrown around here asking people to stop whining, let me add one too - stop laughing at others and go place an order. Heck, for TWO EPICs, not just one. And go on your merry way.

Cool?

You could try refinancing it with a place like lending club. You'll get a significantly lower rate than a credit card. That's another cool thing about the new Epic pricing. With lending club you can borrow up to $35,000 from personal investors who choose to buy a small percentage of a personal loan. Now anyone can buy a full epic package on credit from lendingclub.com and ask people on reduser to invest in them.

 

[Nikhil Kamkolkar]

You could try refinancing it with a place like lending club. You'll get a significantly lower rate than a credit card. That's another cool thing about the new Epic pricing. With lending club you can borrow up to $35,000 from personal investors who choose to buy a small percentage of a personal loan. Now anyone can buy a full epic package on credit from lendingclub.com and ask people on reduser to invest in them.

I got one of those 0% for a year type of a deal. I take loans seriously. I plan to pay it off before the year ends.

But thanks for this tip! It looks great and maybe useful for something else, and possibly for others on this forum as well. Thanks.

 

[tonydavis]

epic 5k at roughly 10 lakhs inr now...!! time to own something

 

[Arnold F.]

1) There is no denying the new Epic price is great for us who would like to buy one.

2) I didn't buy an Epic for $35K but I'd be unhappy if I had. Here's why:

No business owner buys a piece of equipment without considering it's resale value. This is particularly true in a business like ours where the landscape changes rapidly. We are always hoping to get the most in resale for our gear in order to upgrade to the next thing.

We do have to face incremental decreases in value do to wear and tear, small decreases in retail price (example: 5DM2), obsolescence, etc. All of us accept that.

What many current Epic owners do find hard to accept is a unexpected, manufacturer- imposed free-fall - an instant loss of something like 40% of the resale value they planned for. These people, who lost $15,000-$20,000 overnight, are the folks one poster above is calling "whiners." Nice.

This appears to be missed by the following list of less than well-reasoned thoughts directed at current Epic owners. These are all REAL statements by users here:

- you still have the camera
- your camera still turns on
- you already made your money off it
- whiners
- you're anti-RED

If your new car gets totalled three months after you buy it is it consolation that you still own it, or that it starts? If you're unhappy about your totalled car are you a whiner? Does it make you anti-car?

3) There is no denying that the Epic prices is great for us who would like to buy one. There is no denying that the new Epic price is hard for those who already have one.

 

[Michel Rabe]

Hey Jim,

Is 4.5k WS (4480x1920) at 24-30fps for Scarlet-X being considered by chance?

I know it's not straightforward/easy, regardless of the resolution being less per frame than 4k (4096x2160), but it'd be nice to know if it's even being looked at as an option.

I like the idea! Would still give Epic the 5K advantage but close the gap a bit, just like pricing gap has been significantely closed now.

 

[Terry VerHaar]

...

I am sure the new Scarlet buyers are the worse hit. They have have spend USD 10K+ for the body, now they can add USD 9K+ and get a superior camera.


...

I appreciate the sympathetic nod to we Scarlet owners but, honestly, I don't feel hard hit at all. I ordered my Scarlet in Nov/2011 and received it in February. Have shot happily for several months now and my $9750 "investment" (and I use the term loosely), in brain, SSD module and lens mount now sells for $10,150. I actually hadn't done the math before now but now I realize the new set-up is actually more expensive than I paid. Meanwhile, I've accumulated accessories that can be moved over to an Epic, if I decide to get one.

The Epic is a fabulous deal but, right now, I'd be happy if I could just bump my Scarlet up to 5K/24 fps and maybe get higher frames rates at the lower resolution, too. Personally, I am not even that hot on Dragon for myself as yet (although, that will probably change. lol)

It's true the path to upgrade to Epic is not clear now. Unless RED does some sort of trade-in or upgrade program, I'll have to sell my Scarlet and buy Epic outright but that's not such a terrible option either. Right now, I am good! :thumbsup:

 

[Zachary Marsh]

I do feel for Epic Owners who just lost a huge amount of their investment resale value. I think this also contributes to a thought I had...

RED is trying to say that they are just passing on savings. That might be true. But I actually think this is the first time that RED has had to play catchup/respond to the industry, instead of telling the industry where it should go. The BMCC and new Sony F5 are still incredibly viable products. Why? Because it still costs $15k for a functioning RED Scarlet/RED One MX, and even more for the other options. I could buy the BMCC today and literally not have to buy anything else.