Attitude adjustment...

[Freya]

This is absolutely key. I was one of these people. I spent years waiting for a cinema camera that a) I could afford and b) had good cinema quality. I was stuck shooting timelapse for like 4 years while I waited, because it was the only "4K" camera I could afford -- a cheap DSLR shooting RAW still frames. For all those years, I was cursing Sony and Pansonic, because I KNEW they were holding back technology, in order to protect their quarter-million-dollar cameras. You can find my rants here and on DVXuser, dating back to 2006.

This whole idea of people now wanting to, as Freya put it, "pull the ladder up behind them," is nauseating to me.

It's funny how familiar all this stuff is from the world generally.
Apparently new RED customers have been sitting on the side "waiting for handouts" it would appear.
This night has really opened my eyes, and not just about cameras.

"nauseating" is an understatement compared to how I feel right now.
I don't get angry easily but...

The truth about people hurts.

love

Freya

 

[William Donaruma]

This is huge news for film schools as well. We now have two R1 MX cameras and a Scarlet and while I still teach 16mm film as an intermediate class moving up to RED Digital in Advanced, I am not sure that will be worth doing anymore. At least we can avoid the DSLR craze, which we managed to stay out of to this point.

 

[Elsie N]

On the plus side for current camera owners in re: the new pricing... insurance rates to insure equipment should be cheaper. :thumbsup:

 

[Eric Santiago]

OK, just buy a new Scarlet at the reduced rate and rent that one out at a cheaper rate. /sarc
You will get no sympathy from me.....
I bought a $35,000 standard def BetaCam in 1987.....

I shudder..

Worked at local gov run television station during that same year and watch them transfer from BetaSP to BetaSX.

Oh the numbers

 

[Andrae Palmer]

On the plus side for current camera owners in re: the new pricing... insurance rates to insure equipment should be cheaper. :thumbsup:

LOL... I'll have to drop my coverage amount for next year.

 

[Will Wernick]

People have false expectations about camera prices, because the whole game has been rigged for decades, by companies like Sony, Canon, and Pansonic. Sony always floated their overpriced cameras by suppressing technology in lower-priced cameras. Or with Canon, they slowly trickle out technology, just enough to force people to buy the next model. It's all rigged and manipulated. What Red is doing is closer to the high-end PC market, where fast-moving technology dictates the pace and price of changes more directly.

Last Fall, I built an awesome $10K editing PC. I needed it to edit my film. The day it arrived at my house, it dropped in value by 30%. Six months later, I could not sell it on ebay for half the price I paid for it. Did you see me going onto PC forums and complaining? No, I understand how fast technology changes. I needed the computer.. I bought it, and used it successfully. The attitude adjustment that people need, IMO, is adjusting from the phony, inflated, manipulated camera-pricing markets of the past to this new model that Jim and his team are pioneering. Think of an Epic as a small supercomputer with a PL mount strapped to it. Once you do that, things will make much more sense.

+1 Totally agree.

 

[Luis Caffesse]

LOL... I'll have to drop my coverage amount for next year.

Who are you kidding, Andrae?
You know you'll just wind up buying another Epic to cover the difference in value.

 

[William Robinette]

Thanks guys, it's been pretty amazing watching you over the past 6 years. Absolutely cannot wait to get my hands on an EPIC that I can call my own.

 

[Scott Crawley]

Scarlet was marked down by less than a couple grand. Red is offering to offset more than half of that with a credit. You seem to be confusing Epic and Scarlet, but you are definitely mixing your numbers.

If you are -$10k the offset is $4000 or 40%.

When Apple cut the price on the iPhone a while back they offered a similar deal. Who remembers those numbers? I'm curious how they compare.

I just bought a Scarlet 3 weeks ago for full price. Now you've discounted it $10,000! Where does that leave me? My resale value in the toilet along with my rental pricing. And you're offering me a lousy $1,000 discount on my next accessory purchase as compensation? I just bought $30,000 of Red accessories, don't expect to be buying anything else in the near future. I've been shooting with Red since it came out, finally decided to buy one and now am feeling the opposite of a loyal customer. Thanks for nothing. Sincerely, Thomas Burstyn

 

[Michel Rabe]

I just bought a Scarlet 3 weeks ago for full price. Now you've discounted it $10,000! Where does that leave me? My resale value in the toilet along with my rental pricing. And you're offering me a lousy $1,000 discount on my next accessory purchase as compensation? I just bought $30,000 of Red accessories, don't expect to be buying anything else in the near future. I've been shooting with Red since it came out, finally decided to buy one and now am feeling the opposite of a loyal customer. Thanks for nothing. Sincerely, Thomas Burstyn

Your resale value in the toilet? That's all you think of when having a 4K raw 13 stops DR camera sitting on your shelf?

 

[Adam Welch]

All I am thinking about now is EPIC EPIC EPIC!!!

 

[Eryc Tramonn]

This is absolutely key. I was one of these people. I spent years waiting for a cinema camera that a) I could afford and b) had good cinema quality. I was stuck shooting timelapse for like 4 years while I waited, because it was the only "4K" camera I could afford -- a cheap DSLR shooting RAW still frames. For all those years, I was cursing Sony and Pansonic, because I KNEW they were holding back technology, in order to protect their quarter-million-dollar cameras. You can find my rants here and on DVXuser, dating back to 2006.

This whole idea of people now wanting to, as Freya put it, "pull the ladder up behind them," is nauseating to me.

Tom, we have been in perfect sync lately. Nauseating is right.

I went to USC film, graduating in '99. We were the last class to shoot Super 8, and 16 for god sake. I have always been a geek, and pretty tech oriented, so I had very specific ideas about how I wanted a camera to function. I too spent years waiting for the RIGHT tool, and it was based on the exact same requirements. I had to be able to afford it, and it had to be cinema quality. I was so into the thought of shooting 35mm, at one point I penned an homage to Chris Marker's La Jetée, so I could use a still camera for capture.

It didn't take a great deal to figure out what the perfect camera would look like. But it was a pipe dream -- the "consumer" was consistently throttled, and the bigger companies were historically more concerned with their own interests than the interests of their customer. Uncompressed, high res territory was mostly reserved for a very small cache of individuals able to afford the high costs associated with a traditional film chain. And if you've been in it...you know that statement has nothing to do with "conspiracy theory," "poverty mentality," or otherwise. It's just a cold, harsh truth.

Anyway, like you, I knew the camera industry was dogging it. I was never going to purchase anything from a major manufacturer. I was resigned to renting and playing with other stuff along the way. At times, whatever I could get my hands. Because of this, I feel pretty comfortable irrespective of the tool -- iPhone, Epic...it's all the same now. And I don't mean that in a pejorative sense, nor am I comparing the devices capabilities. No, the thing that matters most is the person/people operating that gear. And it goes beyond mere technical understanding of a subject. There is a hard won philosophical understanding/component that is impossible to impart to anyone who does not get it. And a person can only be lucky to glean it with time. But that is true of life, and not just filmmaking.

Ultimately, it's all about learning and the journey. And the legacy we leave behind. Time is a very relative thing, and in the big scheme of things, we're already gone. So how do you want to be remembered? Once you start to consider that, hopefully you begin to focus on the positives, rather than being consumed by the hoarder, greed-based mentality that seems to affect a lot of people on this planet.

And Tom, I have watched you from afar...hahahahahaha...you're KILLIN' IT. AWESOME! I've been reading this forum basically since it launched. I would sit and pixel peep those milk girls (for more reasons than one...hahaha), so I've seen firsthand as the revolution matured. We've seen Internet celebrity born because of it...and yes, that is a nod to you, sir.

Some of us GET IT. Others won't.

I had an idea of what the perfect camera system for our means as filmmakers would be...and I never ponied up cash for any other camera to date. Well, I think that changes today. I'm scrambling to figure out how I'm doing this, and which camera I'm going after. It'll make money in my team's hands. We've already proven that time and again. I am still going to shoot my short homage to Mr. Marker (may he rest in peace)...only it's going to be a bit more RED.

Eryc

 

[Terry VerHaar]

I just bought a Scarlet 3 weeks ago for full price. Now you've discounted it $10,000! Where does that leave me? My resale value in the toilet along with my rental pricing. And you're offering me a lousy $1,000 discount on my next accessory purchase as compensation? I just bought $30,000 of Red accessories, don't expect to be buying anything else in the near future. I've been shooting with Red since it came out, finally decided to buy one and now am feeling the opposite of a loyal customer. Thanks for nothing. Sincerely, Thomas Burstyn

I am confused. How can a $9700 camera be discounted $10,000?

 

[Keith_D]

I 100% agree... Some people hold the door open with a smile, others want to bar it shut with the same smile.
Kudos to Red for kicking the f-ing door down

++1 Yes!!! :emote_happyhappy:

 

[Eryc Tramonn]

I just bought a Scarlet 3 weeks ago for full price. Now you've discounted it $10,000! Where does that leave me? My resale value in the toilet along with my rental pricing. And you're offering me a lousy $1,000 discount on my next accessory purchase as compensation? I just bought $30,000 of Red accessories, don't expect to be buying anything else in the near future. I've been shooting with Red since it came out, finally decided to buy one and now am feeling the opposite of a loyal customer. Thanks for nothing. Sincerely, Thomas Burstyn

Thomas...if I had the money...I would give it back to you. Seriously. Wow, dude.

While I feel your pain, you also have to realize you did what you were capable of at the time. And the camera is still useful.

I think this debate we've all been engaged in the past few days revolves principally around why the camera was purchased in the first place. If you didn't do it for yourself, first and foremost, then yeah...I fully see the problem. You were treating it solely as an investment to try to turn a dollar off of it -- okay. Fair enough. But that is truly a selfish mentality. "I got it, now everyone else can either do what I did, or piss off."

Why not think constructively and try to 1. figure out how to position the situation in a way that could work for you, or 2. explain your situation privately. You'd be surprised what someone like Jim might be capable of. Just saying.

Eryc

 

[Emanuel A.]

I am confused. How can a $9700 camera be discounted $10,000?

LOL Terry, your posts are a must read

The most funny is these people never understood the RED business...

 

[Eryc Tramonn]

Fascinating shenanigans going on these days in the Camera Wars... which beat the Clone Wars hands down.

I'm a RED supporter and customer, (although I seem to only post devil's advocate stuff admittedly), and the new prices are a logical evolution and completely understandable to me. It's great news for people who want to join the RED express train and have access to great equipment. It's also fantastic news for independent filmmakers and the industry in general.

Things change in tech so fast. Anyone who has ever bought electronics could not possibly be naivé enough to believe otherwise. You buy the latest and greatest from a gushing salesman who not long after tells you deadpan with lips barely moving that what you bought is only of use today as a doorstop. How many times has that happened? I'm astonished that anyone who forks out thousands of hard-earned dollars on the latest electronic gizmo feels side-swiped when this occurs. Where doesn't it occur? Well, there is a place, in the Twilight Zone of RED marketing.

RED, IMO, creates (is partly responsible for) a lot of naivé dissatisfaction (such as some to this price reduction) with their entertaining (some might say shameless) marketing strategies that obviously deeply convince naivé people. If you look closely sometimes even RED themselves get confused and tangled with their own marketing idealism and realism...

"We don't sample the market to determine pricing. We charge what is fair." (That might get a rousing standing ovation from a horde of people when cameras are $300k, who at some point will be horribly disgruntled.) That quote was Mr Land.

"Its actually a race to the top... Cameras are getting better for cheaper. Look around. A current $500 entry level DSLR shoots better images than a $10,000 DSLR from just 2 years ago. From a pure technical image quality rating there are $2000 cameras stomping $60,000 digital backs." That's Mr Land seemingly contradicting his earlier comment in what appears a feverish assessment of the market. RED is a business, and is in competition, not a charity institution.

Here is the leader, "Our mission was clear from the beginning. It was to democratize the professional camera industry and stop $300K cameras from being the only alternative. It was nearly impossible for young and creative shooters to afford, even rent, a pro camera. We have changed that."

This, IMO, is closest to the truth. There was also a rather large profit cushion to be exploited, if done right. That cushion has now contracted. The original mission statement is accomplished, so what now? It's now a flat-out, flat-stick competitive war for the most customers. Look at Apple for clues on strategies and choices there with their niche customers. "We are pro" is another comment that takes interesting turns as prices crumble and everyone can get their hands on a product.

I see the price announcement by RED as a very aggressive move to kill the Sony cameras dead and dare them on price, all in the name of the camera wars.

In a few years, or sooner there will be a camera that weighs a feather, or shoots with different technology or whatever, you can bet your life on it. Obsolescence Obsolete is marketing Kool-aid to the naivé. The prices for starters are obsolete and one moment the tech, the body, the power, whatever, will be too. I would just say enjoy the wonderful tech before it turns into even more wonderful tech. And then enjoy that.

Sometimes even Mr Jannard will be heard to admit, "Today... for $4000 you can buy an iMac with a ton of RAM and a bazillion times more in storage that is 10,000 times faster and more capable with a billion times more applications. If you thought the world was changing rapidly then... hold on to your hat. We now live in the world of exponential."

I guess I can still take photos with a camera from 1920, so from a semantic viewpoint, what's one person's doorstop is someone else's use. I would imagine in the year 2060 you could still make a movie with an Epic. And I could type my script on Wordstar and save it to a 5 1/4 inch floppy disk.

My point to this ramble is that RED try sometimes to eat their cake and have it too, their own spin sending mixed messages, and then being upset or hurt when people who bought the spin complain. I understand the pure and joyous idealism of the spin, the great aspirational element to it, and there's no doubt in my mind that the entire RED team truly want to care for every customer and have everyone love them, it's just that sometimes they are their own best weapon AND worst enemy. In fact there's ample evidence that they already know that and probably wouldn't have it any other way. After-all, RED is one of the few companies bold (or insane enough) to declare "Obsolescence Obsolete" as well as "Everything Changes" and try to honestly and with the best intentions juggle both.

Very thoughtful post...

I hear everything you are writing. But the comment I added emphasis to...that's what really does it for me.

"Our mission was clear from the beginning. It was to democratize the professional camera industry and stop $300K cameras from being the only alternative. It was nearly impossible for young and creative shooters to afford, even rent, a pro camera. We have changed that." - Jim

If I could have purchased an EPIC M the moment they were released, I would have. And I would not be feeling ripped off now. I'd be happy for others able to experience the same. My cameras will work irrespective of their resale value -- whether it is because they are being rented to the next ad agency that commissions my company, or it is because I'm shooting something in my friend's apartment (as Mr. Rob Ruffo so demeaningly put it). So again, this has more to do with original intent for purchase than most anything else.

I'm sorry, but if the camera was a bad investment for you at any point in time...IT ALWAYS WAS AND ALWAYS WILL BE A BAD INVESTMENT irrespective of the financial outlay. Focus on using it. It's a tool. I mean com'on...the 4K consumer market was only just born a couple days ago. Hahaha. You're telling me you don't have life left in these devices. Hahaha.

 

[Eryc Tramonn]

LOL Terry, your posts are a must read

The most funny is these people never understood the RED business...

+1 Exactly. They're not getting it.

 

[Antony Newman]

If the Red user base rapidly expands as a result of the price reductions:
+) More people will have direct experience of Red and its workflow.
+) More producers will consider Red, and likely choose them in multi camera shots.
+) Support for Red will pop up all over the world where this camera has never reached before.
+) With a larger hobbyist community - There will be more weight on NLE maker to deliver Red solutions.
+) Red would have a new market to sell an enhanced Red Rocket.
+) It will prompt more 3rd party accessories to be designed - and likely at a lower price point.

Final thoughts: These are amazing times. We are all in great debt to everyone at Red who has devoted themselves to not just making amazing technology - but who catalyse our very dreams.

AJ

 

[Eryc Tramonn]

I guess some of the dentists and trust fund kids are about to get found out, which could explain some of the whining.

There are no excuses now. There is a quality camera at every price point. So, quit complaining and get out and shoot. These are good times.

HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA!!!!!! YES!!!!!!!!!