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  • Hey all, just changed over the backend after 15 years I figured time to give it a bit of an update, its probably gonna be a bit weird for most of you and i am sure there is a few bugs to work out but it should kinda work the same as before... hopefully :)

ASIC issue...

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You know what's nice? Not one single truly negative comment in this thread (that I've seen, at least). Must be the holiday spirit. :tongue_smilie:
 
Dave Barak said:
You know what's nice? Not one single truly negative comment in this thread (that I've seen, at least). Must be the holiday spirit. :tongue_smilie:
Click to expand...

Negativity is unproductive. I certainly prefer to be kept in the loop on things as they develop, good and bad.

Peace and love Red Team. :emote_hippie:
 
I totally agree, I mean, I've followed a lot of production talk from many different companies but I have NEVER seen a company as transparent with their productivity as I have seen with Red. Imagine my surprise to see such a detailed message about 'metal spins' and I am just happy I could help shed a little light on ASICs myself.

Given the concept of complexity, it is not uncommon for certain features implemented initially in a design to not make it into the final usage of an integrated circuit. Sometimes these can be worked around with something as simple as changing the flow of operation. With many ASICs today, there is firmware that can be uploaded/changed so that almost any minor problem can be worked around. Most ASIC designs today are known as a SOC (System on a Chip) and have many smaller parts that work together to make a bigger function. In the past, something like FireWire would be its own chip. Today, you'd buy either the hard or soft IP and integrate it into a larger design to be fabricated all at once.

So while the design as a whole can become more complex, it can still be broken down into separate sections that are easily digestible AND verifiable.

If Red is already in the lab working with real parts, then the chances of them catching all the problems is only depends on the complexity of the issue. If they feel 95% of the functionality is golden, that means very little is probably masked in terms of operation. Much different than say if a clock signal was severely broken and half the design was rendered useless. Of course, most designs are made for testability these days anyways so that if there is a problem, there are a variety of avenues that can be taken to determine the cause.

I say all this in the sense that I'd not be worried. Digital IC design is nothing new, and it is a well fleshed out field. As I said before, metal spins are very common, and a good point to be at! I'm sure Red has to be working with some very talented front-end and back-end designers for how fast this ASIC has come to fruition.
 
Lawrence Bansbach said:
It's not the delay that bothers me, it's the sheer complexity of the ASIC design. I really hope that it's not a matter of fixing one flaw, only to have several more crop up. I have faith in Red, but this is relatively new territory for them (i.e., ASIC design of this complexity). Keeping my fingers crossed.
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I understand...

Earlier in this thread, in his post #6, Jim explained that the RED engineering team is "all world", but that this new ASIC involves a complexity above any ASIC that has ever been produced. If there are 30 levels on the prototype ASIC like he said, and 28 of them function great, having just 2 levels that need to be re-worked sounds like the team did a good job on the proto ASIC. The "fix" he described sounds relatively simple and doesn't involve going back to Square A - very good news.

One of Jim's traditional business skills has been team building - both at Oakley and RED. I'm not the least bit surprised he terms his engineering team as "all world", knowing how experienced he is at assembling research and development teams.

The above considered, I think this ASIC R&D rests in very capable hands. I'm not worried at all...
 
Am I the only person who doesn't remotely understand what an ASIC is? I've read the wiki and all the posts, just can't get it to stick. It seems one part science, one part hocus-pocus.

Anyhow, it must be very frustrating for the RED team to be so close, particularly when the world is populated by so many glass half-empty neigh-sayers. 30 days is nothing, hang in there. It'll be ready when it is.
 
Steve Gibby said:
Very true - and "A stitch in time saves nine". Its infinitely better to perfect the ASIC now - than to rush out a slightly flawed ASIC and suffer through the pain and expense of a recall. Wisdom dictates to take the time on the front end to get everything right - and I must say I'm not the least bit surprised that's your strategy. Thanks for the transparency - its a breath of fresh air in this industry.

On the added Record button, good move adding it in - and putting it where a record button has been on pro-level EFP/ENG camcorder systems for decades - on the front of the camera where its easily left-hand accessible to the operator.

Its all good Jim and RED Team - 100% happiness here :)
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This was a smart move indeed. The little problem with the ASIC is better corrected now then later. Good to see the record button for some Left Handed folks also. I'm sure this will be more ergonomically correct and be more EFP/ENG friendly.
 
Sometimes I forget after doing this for so long, it seems second nature to me. ASIC is nothing more than a dedicated circuit at the end of the day for doing something. It's basically the opposite of a generic circuit. The processor in a computer is not considered an ASIC because it's for general purpose use, no one single use in mind.

From this you can even imagine that yes, you could take a computer processor and use it where you would an ASIC and it could work (with some additional circuitry).

Many times, for speed, space and power reasons, it's just better to develop your own integrated circuit to do just what you need.

This is why there are DSP chips for audio processing that are separate than a CPU. They are still generic in many senses, but a bit less general and designed to do things faster for signal processing than trying to do the same thing on a generic processor.

While I have no inside knowledge to this ASIC, my understanding is that it is just a processor to handle the extra functionality they announced earlier.

To take it out a step further, if it is all digital, you can even think of it as a program that has been implemented in hardware (which is ALWAYS faster). Given the speeds that the scarlet/epic work at, I can definitely see why an ASIC was necessary, as battery power and performance are DEFINITELY a key. But other than that, an ASIC is just taking a lot of different electronic circuits and building them on one chip specifically for whatever you are trying to accomplish. Instead of looking at the Wiki of an ASIC, just look at an integrated circuit in its most simplistic form, and then imagine just millions of those smaller parts used together on a larger piece of silicon. :)
 
Rick Burnett said:
Sometimes I forget after doing this for so long, it seems second nature to me. ASIC is nothing more than a dedicated circuit at the end of the day for doing something. It's basically the opposite of a generic circuit. The processor in a computer is not considered an ASIC because it's for general purpose use, no one single use in mind.

From this you can even imagine that yes, you could take a computer processor and use it where you would an ASIC and it could work (with some additional circuitry).

Many times, for speed, space and power reasons, it's just better to develop your own integrated circuit to do just what you need.

This is why there are DSP chips for audio processing that are separate than a CPU. They are still generic in many senses, but a bit less general and designed to do things faster for signal processing than trying to do the same thing on a generic processor.

While I have no inside knowledge to this ASIC, my understanding is that it is just a processor to handle the extra functionality they announced earlier.

To take it out a step further, if it is all digital, you can even think of it as a program that has been implemented in hardware (which is ALWAYS faster). Given the speeds that the scarlet/epic work at, I can definitely see why an ASIC was necessary, as battery power and performance are DEFINITELY a key. But other than that, an ASIC is just taking a lot of different electronic circuits and building them on one chip specifically for whatever you are trying to accomplish. Instead of looking at the Wiki of an ASIC, just look at an integrated circuit in its most simplistic form, and then imagine just millions of those smaller parts used together on a larger piece of silicon. :)
Click to expand...

Thanks Rick. I think I get it now:)
 
I liked when you said you learned from the R1 program and you want the EPIC to be bulletproof.

Remember the old saying cheap fast, good, pick two?

That should not apply in this case.

Do it correct. Once. Then improve on that.

David
 
Hey Jim,
On the front of the Fixed it appears to have 2 "Brass threaded holes?". Is this for threaded support rails much like on the new Arri 416?
Thanks.
 
jamesbridges said:
Hey Jim,
On the front of the Fixed it appears to have 2 "Brass threaded holes?". Is this for threaded support rails much like on the new Arri 416?
Thanks.
Click to expand...

I believe those are the 3mm audio inputs. It would be nice if they did take threaded jacks but it doesn't appear so.....
 
Rick Burnett said:
Sometimes I forget after doing this for so long, it seems second nature to me. ASIC is nothing more than a dedicated circuit at the end of the day for doing something. It's basically the opposite of a generic circuit. The processor in a computer is not considered an ASIC because it's for general purpose use, no one single use in mind.

From this you can even imagine that yes, you could take a computer processor and use it where you would an ASIC and it could work (with some additional circuitry).

Many times, for speed, space and power reasons, it's just better to develop your own integrated circuit to do just what you need.

This is why there are DSP chips for audio processing that are separate than a CPU. They are still generic in many senses, but a bit less general and designed to do things faster for signal processing than trying to do the same thing on a generic processor.

While I have no inside knowledge to this ASIC, my understanding is that it is just a processor to handle the extra functionality they announced earlier.

To take it out a step further, if it is all digital, you can even think of it as a program that has been implemented in hardware (which is ALWAYS faster). Given the speeds that the scarlet/epic work at, I can definitely see why an ASIC was necessary, as battery power and performance are DEFINITELY a key. But other than that, an ASIC is just taking a lot of different electronic circuits and building them on one chip specifically for whatever you are trying to accomplish. Instead of looking at the Wiki of an ASIC, just look at an integrated circuit in its most simplistic form, and then imagine just millions of those smaller parts used together on a larger piece of silicon. :)
Click to expand...

As a real-world example of Rick's excellent explanation, think of the debayer process. This is a strictly defined mathematical process that today is a software subroutine that executes on an Intel CPU in your computer. Even the fastest general purpose CPU cannot do this at full quality in real-time. And still there is much power and heat generated in doing it at even partial quality.

In Epic/Scarlet/RedRocket a section of the ASIC has been built and optimized to do nothing else in life other than debayer. As such, it can do so at realtime (or better), and with a fraction of the power and thermal envelope that your CPU might take.

That can be one of the discrete sections Rick speaks of.

Real time scaling is another example.

Color transform.

Transcode to RGB for monitoring outputs

Etc...

These all can be specific functions built in to the ASIC, each of which can be done far more efficiently than a general CPU can. Of course, it can't run a web browser or play Call of Duty 2 (well, unless you know the secret easter egg sequence), but that's the point... no extra baggage.

-sc
 
Wait a minute, hold the phone!!
I CANNOT play Call of Duty 2 with the Epic?
Ok, I guess I cannot power my moonrocket with it either!
Stupid camera, what a scam!
 
Great -- Remember Good things do come to those who wait.

and Getting it Done Right

Joe
 
oh! i like the still / motion button right there on the RedMote! NICE!

as the occasional spewer of negative thoughts, i must repent and acknowledge the humility in these posts. thanks for the honesty!

Now if only we could get some dates, lol... as I say that, i am sure you are thinking the same thing. damn asics.

EDIT- and i really must say I am enjoying the thought that there is no real delay, that you guys are just having too much fun with finished scarlets and epics.

jeff
 
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Even so I am not a customer (yet) I would like to thank you Jim for being so open and on top of reinventing the camera business setting a prime example of how a company should be run in this day and age - ethical open transparent. I wish you and the team all the best in ironing out the bugs - with this attitude I can easely wait a bit longer.
 
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