ASC and BSC camera tests ...

[Tony Brown]

That being said, Stephen and David... Come on... this test is really ridiculous. They should put a Macbeth chart in the image and grade everything so that the charts match as best as possible. Then we can actually get a sense of the real difference between these formats.

But the BSC tests WERE graded to Macbeth charts (although not included in the shot), that was the exact premise of the test. It was felt that then the differences in the 'real world' footage would show up, rather than using the grade to eliminate the differences

This wasn't a showing to students, these were industry pros who were grown up enough to listen to the criteria applied to the tests and make up their own minds. We all know the results can be improved, that wasn't the point of these tests

Sure, it might have been nice to ALSO see a grade were the skin tones matched as closely as possible and see where the rest of the image goes (which actaully would have been my preference, 90% of grading is done to skin tones not these bloody charts), but the criteria was to aquire the images according to the recommended manufacturers settings(so they all had their chance to optimise ISO settings etc etc) and from that point process all of the information through a common workflow, dpx files.

The link to the footage shot from the auditorium is extremely unhelpful and should be ignored, to view that and make any meaningful conclusion would be idiotic in the extreme.

Whilst I think the commentary from Sue Gibson that you hear was possibly not the most tactful oratory, it needs to be taken in context of the days banter which unless you were present is as misleading as those appalling images in the link

The colourist who did the 'grade' did single out RED as being the most difficult footage of all the systems to match to the Macbeth chart. Not a single colour matched I think he said. Most of the RED issues to me looked exposure based and really backs the idea that many DoP's are rating the chip at 160

My MAJOR issure with RED was the huge difference in the field of view, it was much tighter than the 35mm footage, more like you would expect at 3k.

Anyone else notice this?

 

[Tony Brown]

and it suggests that producers and directors can use this test to make a more informed choice.

But thats true, 'informed choice' being the key. Anyone director/producer who makes a decision based purely on what he saw at these tests deserves everything they get. These tests are but a single facet of information that if nothing else highlight to anyone with a brain that it must be an 'informed choice', that the entire workflow path is still a dangerous place and this is what could happen if you dont make an 'informed choice'

This was not designed to form a conclusion, it was provided as INFORMation

 

[Michael Lindsay]

But the BSC tests WERE graded to Macbeth charts (although not included in the shot),

The colourist who did the 'grade' did single out RED as being the most difficult footage of all the systems to match to the Macbeth chart. Not a single colour matched I think he said.

Sound like a rec 709 colour matrix conversion in Red tools. Pre-build 20 rec 709 colour space conversion (not gamma) was crazy and I know of nobody who used it.

regards

Michael L

 

[Tony Brown]

From the BSC information pack.....

Supplied 2k dpx 10 bit log files and RAW or native files from all data cameras to editorial for mastering. In some cases these files were used in the final master, in other cases a further extraction to 2k 10 bit dpx log files was completed on the Quantel eQ direct from the RAW or native files

10 bit dpx files were ingested onto the Filmaster machine made by Digital Vision at the Hat Factory. Pictures were then graded on a cinema screen in P3 Gamma 2.6 colour space

All material was put through a technical grade using grey scales and Macbeth charts. Cross referencing to the pictures and other formats was also part of the process. Measurements were taken on a scope from REC 709 colour space proxies

Hope that helps

 

[Tony Brown]

Is there anywhere online to see the ASC/BSC tests, or were they only made available to members? Thanks!

This question was asked at the BSC event Kevin. There are no plans to make the tests available as they are keen that people see these tests in the toughest environment possible i.e a big screen. Its a fair point that people would view the material on all sorts of screens and possibly be misled by what they see.

Cinematographer Geoff Boyle who runs the excellent Cinematographers Mailing List countered that there are HD versions of tests downloaded from his site which people have found very useful and thought it was a good idea to make the tests available. Joe Dunton said that the BSC may consider a Blue Ray release or similar at a later date.

I would also like to see them do this.

In the meatime the tests are to be shown around the country between now and Christmas, so if you are genuinely interested.....check their website for details

 

[J. P. Sendall]

You have to keep in mind that some of these formats and cameras only look worse in comparison to each other in certain circumstances... when an entire project is shot using one format or camera, you tend to accept that picture quality and look because you don't have a frame of reference. Hence why 16mm may look worse compared directly to some other formats, but an entire feature shot in 16mm can seem quite acceptable in quality, even attractive.

I agree that the eye does adapt to the situation and then creates a norm that it then accepts (actually I should say brain and not eye) but I still maintain that a better quality of norm could have been pulled from certain formats. That said I agree that the tests are only one facet of information and cannot be used to make an overall judgement despite what the BSC video suggests.

 

[Tom Gough]

Sound like a rec 709 colour matrix conversion in Red tools. Pre-build 20 rec 709 colour space conversion (not gamma) was crazy and I know of nobody who used it.

regards

Michael L

I was there for the BSC evaluation and the flesh tones were so far out that they most definitely used rec709 as the colour space.

Which means that the grader/colourist had no idea that nobody uses rec709 colour space unless that is the look they want - in Sue Gibson's words - "the Tropez look"!

It was a shame I was really looking forward to the results of this test... I was hoping to see conclusive results of the differences between each format, the pros and cons and what hoops they needed to jump through to get the particular result screened. But what it ended up being was - Look how crap these digital formats look when treated like film and taken through a film DI pipeline and WOW look how beautiful film is!

I mean what did the BSC want DOPs to walk away with from this evaluation apart from more insecurity when using a Digital format?

Thanks,

Tom

 

[Laco Zamba]

Which means that the grader/colourist had no idea that nobody uses rec709 colour space unless that is the look they want - in Sue Gibson's words - "the Tropez look"!

Now - he can use new RedAlert! Build 20 with this old test footage. Set REC709 Color Space and REDlog Gamma Space and he can grade REDCODE RAW will beautiful result.

 

[Sanjin Jukic]

But thats true, 'informed choice' being the key. Anyone director/producer who makes a decision based purely on what he saw at these tests deserves everything they get. These tests are but a single facet of information that if nothing else highlight to anyone with a brain that it must be an 'informed choice', that the entire workflow path is still a dangerous place and this is what could happen if you dont make an 'informed choice'

This was not designed to form a conclusion, it was provided as INFORMation

At the end it provided dis-INFORMation.

From the BSC information pack.....

Supplied 2k dpx 10 bit log files and RAW or native files from all data cameras to editorial for mastering. In some cases these files were used in the final master, in other cases a further extraction to 2k 10 bit dpx log files was completed on the Quantel eQ direct from the RAW or native files

10 bit dpx files were ingested onto the Filmaster machine made by Digital Vision at the Hat Factory. Pictures were then graded on a cinema screen in P3 Gamma 2.6 colour space

All material was put through a technical grade using grey scales and Macbeth charts. Cross referencing to the pictures and other formats was also part of the process. Measurements were taken on a scope from REC 709 colour space proxies

Hope that helps

Now BSC tries to "wash" it's hands.

I was there for the BSC evaluation and the flesh tones were so far out that they most definitely used rec709 as the colour space.

Which means that the grader/colourist had no idea that nobody uses rec709 colour space unless that is the look they want - in Sue Gibson's words - "the Tropez look"!

It was a shame I was really looking forward to the results of this test... I was hoping to see conclusive results of the differences between each format, the pros and cons and what hoops they needed to jump through to get the particular result screened. But what it ended up being was - Look how crap these digital formats look when treated like film and taken through a film DI pipeline and WOW look how beautiful film is!

I mean what did the BSC want DOPs to walk away with from this evaluation apart from more insecurity when using a Digital format?

Thanks,

Tom

Reality is totally far away from from the BSC "INFORMation" about some cameras included at the test (especially RED ONE and SI-2K).

Or "REAL WORLD camera tests" are a bit different from BSC "INFORMation".

This year Anthony Dod Mantle, a BSC member won several major cinematographer awards shooting DIGITAL with SI-2K and RED ONE.

1. BAFTA Cinematography 2009 Award for Slumdog Millionaire (shot mostly SI-2K)

2. BAFTA PHOTOGRAPHY & LIGHTING FICTION/ENTERTAINMENT

ANTHONY DOD MANTLE BSC, DFF

Wallander (shot on RED ONE)
BBC One/A Left Bank Pictures/Yellow Bird/TKBC Production, co-produced with ARD Degeto, WGBH Boston and Film I Skane

3. The 81st American Academy For Motion Pictures and Sciences Awards (a better known as Oscars)

Achievement in cinematography for “Slumdog Millionaire” (shot mostly SI-2K)

The BSC Evaluation test 2009 unfortunately provided a very "bad" INFORMation about those two cameras.

Now to conclude is to say that "something" or even "somebody" was wrong there.

Again, REALITY test or BSC test?!

Because of that always draw your own conclusion based on real and not fake "INFORMation".

Also tell us that the BSC Evaluation test 2009 showed a pretty CONSERVATIVE results.

A part of definition for "CONSERVATIVE" are:

1. Resistant to change.

2. A person who is reluctant to accept changes and new ideas.

3. Bourgeois: conforming to the standards and conventions of the middle class; "a bourgeois mentality".

4. Tending or disposed to maintain existing views, conditions, or institutions.

5. Marked by or relating to traditional norms of taste, elegance, style, or manners.


The BSC Evaluation test 2009 obviously pretending to policy of NO CHANGE in acquisition format.

 

[Laco Zamba]

One thing I don't understand - no word from Jim in CML discussion.
BSC is going to show this test till Christmans. Isn't it time to defend RED more?

 

[David Mullen ASC]

Sanjin is engaged in the Bush administration technique of discrediting the messenger when he doesn't agree with the message. If the tests had shown that RED was superior to everything else out there, he'd be praising them and endlessly quoting them.... but since that didn't happen, he's engaged in character assassination in order to discredit what they are saying. This is politics and propaganda.

You can disagree with the techniques used for testing, you can dispute the accuracy of the test, but you don't have to start attacking people when they don't get the results you expected.

 

[Stephen Williams]

Sanjin is engaged in the Bush administration technique of discrediting the messenger when he doesn't agree with the message. If the tests had shown that RED was superior to everything else out there, he'd be praising them and endlessly quoting them.... but since that didn't happen, he's engaged in character assassination in order to discredit what they are saying. This is politics and propaganda.

You can disagree with the techniques used for testing, you can dispute the accuracy of the test, but you don't have to start attacking people when they don't get the results you expected.

Hi David,

Reminds me of Claudio Miranda's tests.
Do some of the people here actually believe that RED beats Film & F35 for dynamic range? Red can look very good but it does some have some shortcommings.

Any truth in the rumor that 24 is now being shot on 35mm film?

Stephen

 

[Stephen Williams]

One thing I don't understand - no word from Jim in CML discussion.
BSC is going to show this test till Christmans. Isn't it time to defend RED more?

Hi,

Geoff Boyle made it very clear that Red + SI 2K should have performed way better than it did.

Stephen

 

[mike ogden]

I think Jim has nothing to defend. Red isn't the ultimate quality motion image capturing device out there and Jim is level headed enough to know this. Red isn't designed to be a world beating image making device, it's designed to be ONE of the top end HD motion capture devices, which I believe it is and an option worth considering. The rest is just your opinion/budget.

Red has opened doors for a lot of people - that was the 'revolution'. Like every other camera out there Red has its limitations, knowledge of which can help you make great images with the tool at hand - like every other camera.

 

[Sanjin Jukic]

Sanjin is engaged in the Bush administration technique of discrediting the messenger when he doesn't agree with the message. If the tests had shown that RED was superior to everything else out there, he'd be praising them and endlessly quoting them.... but since that didn't happen, he's engaged in character assassination in order to discredit what they are saying. This is politics and propaganda.

You can disagree with the techniques used for testing, you can dispute the accuracy of the test, but you don't have to start attacking people when they don't get the results you expected.

David,

I wouldn't say like that.

ASC or BSC tests, "metaphorically" speaking, "told" me in a way that I was "stupid" one just because I have got a wrong camera year and half ago.

Even BSC test directly "told" me that my shooting talents or actress/actors would get a 'true pay-tan' in skin tones if I shoot with RED ONE.

So I tried to "defend" my purchase decision and to "roll" on here some true facts.

Also I would say that is just an opposite: "Politics and propaganda" it's all about what those two tests are.

And again, reality is a bit different and a lot of facts told us about that already.

 

[Sanjin Jukic]

Hi David,

Reminds me of Claudio Miranda's tests.
Do some of the people here actually believe that RED beats Film & F35 for dynamic range? Red can look very good but it does some have some shortcommings.

Any truth in the rumor that 24 is now being shot on 35mm film?

Stephen

Stephen,

I never claimed or said that RED ONE with Mysterium sensor would beat film DR.

 

[Stephen Williams]

Stephen,

I never claimed or said that RED ONE with Mysterium sensor would beat film DR.

F23? F35? Viper?

 

[Laco Zamba]

Any truth in the rumor that 24 is now being shot on 35mm film?

Stephen

I have seen some pictures with Genesis.

 

[Laco Zamba]

I think Jim has nothing to defend. Red isn't the ultimate quality motion image capturing device out there and Jim is level headed enough to know this. Red isn't designed to be a world beating image making device, it's designed to be ONE of the top end HD motion capture devices, which I believe it is and an option worth considering. The rest is just your opinion/budget.

Red has opened doors for a lot of people - that was the 'revolution'. Like every other camera out there Red has its limitations, knowledge of which can help you make great images with the tool at hand - like every other camera.

Jim was defending RED at CML many times.

 

[David Mullen ASC]

You guys are forgetting that RED participated in these tests. As far as the ASC test goes, RED was there for the shooting and approved the final color-correction as well.

Also you should keep in mind that this is a $20,000 camera (well, more like $30,000) with a 12-bit sensor going up against $150,000+ cameras with 14-bit sensors and doing quite well -- smart producers are also going to factor that into the equation when they see these tests.