ARRI ALEXA LF - 4k, FullFrame announced

[Blair S. Paulsen]

Maybe because the window is too small from one model to the next for third party's to be willing to invest.

Agreed. I assume that's one of the reasons that Jarred committed to DSMC2 until 2020. Even RED has been hurt by their own pace: for example, a few years ago I was all ready to purchase their Broadcast Module that offered a UHD live feed and other features over SMPTE optical fiber... for DSMC1, at a time when I already had a deposit down on a DSMC2 CF Weapon. I politely asked about getting on the wait list for the DSMC2 version, but such a thing was not yet in serious development (perhaps gauging DSMC1 Broadcast Module sales first... I would).

Not sure there's a magic bullet when tech is advancing so rapidly, but, realistically, for the 3rd party vendors to invest there has to be some support from RED. Perhaps RED could commit to certain parameters of DSMC3 - pogo interface/air intake and exhaust positioning/weight range/length range/signal formats/etc by a date at least 8 months before the DSMC3 drops. Yes, the NDAs on such a relationship might make Jim's lawyers earn their retainers ;-), but an elegantly integrated backend that would suit a wide range of use cases seems like a worthwhile goal.

Cheers - #19

Evolve

 

[David J. Buchanan]

Also the ARRI accessories are more expensive than REDs. Crazy time to be alive.

 

[David J. Buchanan]

Not sure there's a magic bullet when tech is advancing so rapidly, but, realistically, for the 3rd party vendors to invest there has to be some support from RED. Perhaps RED could commit to certain parameters of DSMC3 - pogo interface/air intake and exhaust positioning/weight range/length range/signal formats/etc by a date at least 8 months before the DSMC3 drops. Yes, the NDAs on such a relationship might make Jim's lawyers earn their retainers ;-), but an elegantly integrated backend that would suit a wide range of use cases seems like a worthwhile goal.


Evolve

Do you really think RED would make DSMC3 that much more different than 2? Might be a little wreckless.

 

[Blair S. Paulsen]

Do, I, personally, expect DSMC3 to have a radically different form factor than DSMC2, no. That said, you don't know what you don't know.

All I'm suggesting is that RED lock down a few parameters in advance so 3rd parties can confidently design proper "docking" hardware, manage COG (center of gravity) to balance the entire package, accommodate ventilation requirements, etc.

In a perfect world, the robustly featured "shell" I'm suggesting would host both DSMC2 and DSMC3 brains; longer useful life, etc. The physical practicality of that is an unknown and at the rate technology moves these days, does anyone really know what's 2 years down the road...?

Cheers - #19

 

[Adrian Jebef]

Adrian,

Can you shoot the Pro res simultaneously with the Arriraw and have ready made proxies?

I don't believe so. Arri hasn't really been about simultaneous proxy recording. Either you're shooting raw for full quality / rez or you shoot ProRes to make the process efficient and quick.

As far as XT and SXT go they still have their place but the Mini is almost half the price, a third the size, and can do almost as much so it's not surprising that Mini sales are outpacing the studio bodies. The LF is it's own beast and the image it produces will make it instantaneously popular (as long as you can get your hands on one). The SXT bodies are not upgradable to LF as the LF body has more processing and power under the hood (4K out is most appreciated). Don't expect a LF sensor in a Mini body. I don't think it's a possibility. Arri's next gen cam / sensor will eventually see the light of day but they are a company that has patience so expect to wait. Above all I believe the A-LF is the last ALEV3 cam that Arri will release and because of it's image characteristics it will stay relevant for a very long time.

 

[Mark K.]

Here in Australia last year the Mini outsold the SXT by ten to one. It will be interesting to see how if at all Mini sales are affected by the LF camera. I have been tempted in the past to buy into Alexa but the opaque road map makes it a tough call for investment. If I had bought in years ago it would have been a good call but in the twilight of the ALEV Sensor and with the lack of upgrade options spending the big bucks to be then left behind two years later is just too scary

I dunno.

With the release of the LF, and Arri so openly doubling-down on Alev III sensor. I think there's a very good chance we might not see a revised sensor design for another 4 or 5 years now.

 

[Karim D. Ghantous]

I like to indulge in speculation, just for the exercise. Caveat: nobody can predict the future with analysis alone - only intuition can do that, and my intuition is not always accurate. I don't care what ARRI does, although they don't have to fail for RED to succeed. I'm for competition, so ARRI failing is not good for RED (although RED is internally driven).

So here is my thought: the Alexa LF sounds like a great idea on paper. But I think a lot of people might start wondering if this thing is worth it. If people were happy with 2.5K (true) resolution just a few weeks ago, why are they now going to complicate things with the LF? It's just cumbersome, really, isn't it? Not just the body, but the data rate.

And anyway, didn't the 2.5K Alexa scale up to 4K anyway? What happened to that? /sarc

Resolution is of course ample - I dare say that 10Mpx (roughly 4K equivalent) is enough for still photos, if the DR and sensitivity are there. The LF gives a true 3.8K, which is the UHD standard. Same as the Raven!

I think that the Signature Primes will be great, but are they worth their cost? Consider that we have Sigma primes that cover VistaVision. And consider that Leica Thalia primes cost about the same as ARRI's.

I wonder if the LF makes any sense. Just thinking aloud.

 

[David J. Buchanan]

I dunno.

With the release of the LF, and Arri so openly doubling-down on Alev III sensor. I think there's a very good chance we might not see a revised sensor design for another 4 or 5 years now.

I doubt it's gonna take 4/5 years for them to come out with an ALEV IV... I'm pretty sure (at least since last talking to the reps at NAB) that they just haven't figured out quality control with a small package and 4K sensor... The conversation went kind of like. "So is 4K a thing for you guys or what?" "Sure it is. Once we figure out how to have the same look, we're sure to come to market." Quotes but not really quoted, but something of the sort.

My guess 2 years... 2020, gonna be a big year for tech, and not just cameras.

 

[Michael Tiemann]

I just returned from a trip to Dubai. There are custom displays all over the city that are way, way, way beyond 4k. I dont expect we'll get 1:1 pixels across those displays any time in the next few years, but 8k is a huge advantage over 2.5k, and somethink like Phil Holland's recent 3x Monstro setup (giving 12k x 8k) will really shine on those massive displays.

 

[M Most]

I wonder if the LF makes any sense. Just thinking aloud.

For individuals who have been Red's main customer base and have decided to own their equipment? Probably not. But for the studio level productions that are the main user base for the LF (and the A65 and XT/SXT, for that matter) and rent their camera packages, then yes, it make complete and total sense. What might be difficult for you or another individual owner to handle - things like the data rate - is done every day by studio level productions shooting cameras like the Arri65. There are equipment and workflows already in place for these things that are well understood and widely used. The LF is no different in that regard. The biggest issue, really, is archiving, particularly to LTO tape. It's not difficult, but it is time consuming and must be accounted for in any workflow.

 

[Phil Holland]

I just returned from a trip to Dubai. There are custom displays all over the city that are way, way, way beyond 4k. I dont expect we'll get 1:1 pixels across those displays any time in the next few years, but 8k is a huge advantage over 2.5k, and somethink like Phil Holland's recent 3x Monstro setup (giving 12k x 8k) will really shine on those massive displays.

If you caught any aerials and terrestrial stuff on a few of those I might have been responsible

 

[Aaron Lochert]

If you caught any aerials and terrestrial stuff on a few of those I might have been responsible

Phil did you do any of the aerials for the Apple TV 4K screensavers? We just got one at the house and had an itching feeling some of that was your work.

 

[Sergio Perez]

Phil did you do any of the aerials for the Apple TV 4K screensavers? We just got one at the house and had an itching feeling some of that was your work.

I'm almost 100% sure the Hong Kong one was his work with Dragon FF.

 

[Phil Holland]

Phil did you do any of the aerials for the Apple TV 4K screensavers? We just got one at the house and had an itching feeling some of that was your work.

I can confirm or deny nothing

 

[Bill Totolo]

...

I wonder if the LF makes any sense. Just thinking aloud.

In a world where the Sony Venice is breathing down your back? I'm not sure.

 

[Jake Wilganowski]

I think the new mini and the new red body style will come out in 2 years.

 

[Scott C]

Where did you see these two sales Phil?

Agreed and it has certainly impacted the used market rather interestingly. For instance the typical Mini package used seems to go for $55K and I just saw one offloaded for around $25K during the week of the announcement. There was another for $35K that also moved, but didn't track the sale so much.

Classics and Pluses are going for sub $10K through $16K typically now. Used XTs are all over the place. Haven't seen too many Amiras for sale in the face of this announcement, but considering that sizeable variance on Minis there's going to be deals to be had for some who are interested in them.

 

[Phil Holland]

Where did you see these two sales Phil?

The book of face.

 

[Mark K.]

I doubt it's gonna take 4/5 years for them to come out with an ALEV IV... I'm pretty sure (at least since last talking to the reps at NAB) that they just haven't figured out quality control with a small package and 4K sensor... The conversation went kind of like. "So is 4K a thing for you guys or what?" "Sure it is. Once we figure out how to have the same look, we're sure to come to market." Quotes but not really quoted, but something of the sort.

My guess 2 years... 2020, gonna be a big year for tech, and not just cameras.

I'm not so sure. They now have 3k, 4.5k and 6k cameras available that offer what the majority of people still clearly seem to consider the best overall image quality available. With the LF they can now easily meet any broadcasters' 4k requirements.

What's their motivation to rush out something with a smaller pixel pitch in that scenario? I just don't see it.

The LF puts Arri in a really nice position where they can basically rest easy for a while. It provides a solution to the only real issue they've faced (which is a small percentage of people needing slightly higher resolution).

In a world where the Sony Venice is breathing down your back? I'm not sure.

Venice looks pretty spectacular, but for it's near total lack of variable framerates in the 4-perf and full-frame sensor modes that make it exciting. It sounds like those framerates are up in the air for the time being, but until Sony clarify what it'll actually be capable of, I think it's a serious issue that Sony are going to have to clear up for people if they want decent sales.

 

[David J. Buchanan]

I'm not so sure. They now have 3k, 4.5k and 6k cameras available that offer what the majority of people still clearly seem to consider the best overall image quality available. With the LF they can now easily meet any broadcasters' 4k requirements.

What's their motivation to rush out something with a smaller pixel pitch in that scenario? I just don't see it.

The LF puts Arri in a really nice position where they can basically rest easy for a while. It provides a solution to the only real issue they've faced (which is a small percentage of people needing slightly higher resolution).

Agreed. But I know they're working on something. Obviously I can only speculate when it's coming out, but they could have been stitched two sensors together... I'm almost certain they did that for the meantime. My money's sticking with 2020.