ARRI ALEXA LF - 4k, FullFrame announced

[sam karr]

Exactly. All the narrative work I've been involved with that was shot on Red is because me and my friend was involved. We are probably the only ones, except maybe Björn Benckert to actually push for Red for narrative work. Almost every other production shoot Alexa XTs or Amiras. No one in Sweden as far as I know shoot on Sony. I can absolutely relate to what people talk about when going into preproduction; it's either "we are using Alexas" or "why do we shoot on Red?", never ever any positive notions from anyone about Red, we always have to convince them.

.......

Read the above and no, this isn't really about the quality of the camera in terms of tech specs for the sensor. It might have something to do with Alexas having a lesser reported number of errors than Red cameras both in software and hardware, but I'm basing it on the industry I'm in and when the question when using a Red camera is always "why Red?" and with Alexa: "We shoot on Alexa", you have to ask the question why this is the norm. I get a number of smaller operating jobs with my Red, but if I had an Alexa I would mostly be able to get narrative work.

Most films that are released doesn't reach a big audience. That there are 10 000 films released over a year doesn't mean much if you're trying to compete at the top range of the released films. In Sweden there are very few or even any movies at all shot on Red over a year and among the TV series that's being released the ones shot on Red was because of me, my friend who's a cinematographer and Björn, everyone else is opting for Alexas.

The Alex LF will probably eat away any Red productions in Sweden, there won't be anything else but some commercials, drone shots and corporate videos. Doesn't matter what the tech specs are, this is the reality of the industry. If you get the question now: "why Red?" after the LF is out and you try to convince with pixel count and downsampling math, people will just shake their heads and go for the LF.

I've not been on Reduser for a very long time, since I switched from Red to Varicam (which is surprisingly almost never mentionned in those discussions). You've been complaining about Red for years. Still, you always upgraded. Just out of curiosity, why? Why didn't you buy an Alexa? Or a Varicam which is 4k, has Arri's colors, is rock solid and is the only one to shoot 5000 iso?

 

[Patrick Tresch]

A 6k S35+ Dragon/Monstro based camera with the same feature-set as the Alexa SXT W, with a really decent view-finder for about 1/3 of the price of the Alexa-W would be a really great production camera for both narrative television and feature films.

Yes and make the Monstro s35 sensor 4/3 compatible for scope lenses!

 

[Saied_M]

I've not been on Reduser for a very long time, since I switched from Red to Varicam (which is surprisingly almost never mentionned in those discussions).

Sam, on your recommendation, I impulsively just looked up the Varicam and got this (image attached below):-

Here's the original link, I wonder how long it stays like that. Bizarrest thing I've seen.
http://info.panasonic.com/varicam-cinema-cameras.html

Bit creepy, like something out of Final Destination or something.....might explain why no one bites.

 

[Christoffer Glans]

I've not been on Reduser for a very long time, since I switched from Red to Varicam (which is surprisingly almost never mentionned in those discussions). You've been complaining about Red for years. Still, you always upgraded. Just out of curiosity, why? Why didn't you buy an Alexa? Or a Varicam which is 4k, has Arri's colors, is rock solid and is the only one to shoot 5000 iso?

It's because Red gives me the best options. The thing is that I'm not a fan of any camera, I'm never a fan of any equipment, they are just tools. I'm a filmmaker, I'm a creative who focus on the art of it all, not the tools. I just put in time to learn the tools. Red cameras gives me the most options, I like Alexa colors more, but I needed the resolution to be able to manipulate my images in post and have control over everything. I'm close to Fincher in that sense of philosophy. Red doesn't have bad colors, it's not just as good as Alexa's. But I would never trade in the control for just colors. However, now that Alexa is catching up I'm beginning to balance between them. It's a shame the LF is only 4,5K at open gate, but the images look really good. If the Alexa 65 were anywhere close to Red in price or could be rented like regular for a similar price as other cameras, I would not use anything else. The LF is the independent filmmakers 65 in lack of better terms.
The Varicam is something I'm looking at for low light, no other camera gives that kind of option. I've been involved with a tv production where we used it for shots against a projection instead of green screen and it worked great.

The thing is that there are too many fans in either direction for this discussion to have any value to it. As a creative person I don't think it's a good idea to be fan of any camera, only to the ones that gives you the tool for the craft. This is why I have a problem when things get too technical. It's like being a painter only looking at the details of a stroke of paint, not the actual painting. When I see a movie shot on Alexa, like Rogue One, it produces the best looking images I've ever seen in digital format. I do not turn to the projectionist and say: "stop the film, I need to examine the pixels and see if they match up to the Dragon 8K". We don't produce images for tech people who pixel peep the images, we create them for breathing feeling people who want to be immersed in the story and atmosphere of the images.

I don't see the point to go around praising stuff just to be popular or to fit into a community of like-minded people. I praise what deserves to be praised. I praise the colors on the Alexa, they are the best in the industry, hands down. We can argue about taste, but if we're aiming for consensus in this matter, most artists in the craft find Alexa to give the best image, regardless of resolution, someone could try and prove me wrong, but I've yet to hear many cinematographers who praise any other camera for their color DR handling. At the same time I praise Red for their resolution and their philosophy of downsampling, while the R3D codec is the best in the industry, proving you don't need uncompressed RAW to have a top standard RAW workflow. But since Arri's closing in on the resolution part of spectrum, it's hard not to embrace it.

If anything, "complaining" is what pushes the technology. It was what made Red go into using carbon fiber (Fincher complained about the weight of the Red One) for example. If people just praise the Monstro, saying everything is perfect, it has perfect resolution, it has perfect noise, it has perfect colors, Red's not gonna do anything with it. "It's perfect", people think and that's that. I still feel Red colors are flat in comparison to Alexa colors. Red images only shines in certain lighting conditions. If you get that right, Red images will look really nice, but it's limited. Alexa is far better in more lighting conditions, it's color and DR handling is tougher. Having one more stop is not the same as how the stops are handled internally. And even when another company, like Light Iron, goes into changing the color science, it's locked to the DXL, even though it's the same infrastructure. I want more Kodak like colors on the Red, like the Alexa has. It has over hundred years of development time into that look and Arri replicated it. To say that Red is "more accurate" feels like a dismissal of all that research into film stocks that Arri replicated. No, in terms of the quality of our cinematography tools, the Alexa is more accurate in it's colors, since it aspires to replicate the perfect color pigments in our painting.

I've been waiting years for similar color handling on Red, but it feels like we're never gonna get it. I can get good images out of my Red and I will use it for low budget stuff, but whenever I get into larger projects I will use the LF. When the Red One came out, it revolutionized the industry, much because it was so cheap in comparison to everything else. However, the Monstro is now in the same realm as anything other in it's league. It's impossible to afford for lower budgets and all those other options are there if the budget gets that high. The more Red has gone up in costs, my dedication to the Red system has dropped. The cost, quality and resolution in combination was the thing that made Red awesome, now it's frontline is just as expensive as anything else. I have to look at everything now, since everything's in the same ballpark, which means I incorporate the cons into the decision much more than before.

I just want to create, I don't care with what. I just feel there's a little too much unconditional love for the Red system and it's holding Red back more than anything. One of the biggest things is that the goodies of the Red system gets put into special orders, like the Xenomorphs, the Bayhem and the DXL. These are cameras so exclusive they're up there with the Alexa 65. Red needs to have one camera that they put all their effort in. There are too many cameras in their lineup, it's confusing for the users, confusing for the clients, confusing for the creatives. Feels like Red is giving out a new sensor every six months or so, stop making some cameras just after release, just like what happened to my Magnesium Weapon. It's not healthy for having consistency. So, as said, if Red had one studio camera, that gets most attention and most work hours put into to make it reliable, robust and solid, that would shake things up. One camera that's aimed to survive many years.

Right now, if you buy a Red camera, you will not know if it's gonna be around tomorrow. The idea at Red is that they do things differently, they do things how they want and that things can change any time. It was nice when it felt rebellious back in the day, but today I think it's the biggest flaw for Red. It's time for this rebel group to form a nation and manage stability, otherwise we're gonna end up with a lineup of 20-30 cameras of all shapes and sizes and capabilities, but none of them specialized, none of them being the main frontline. Buy two big ones, get one small and phone for free. It's become more pixel peeping than people showing off their craft with their tools.

I remember the atmosphere in these forums when only the Red One was around or the Epic / Scarlet. Those years were something else, it was about the craft, it was about the filmmaking, the passion for the tool to create what we want. These days it's all about comparison charts, people giving each other praises like men in suits bragging about their accounts at an office in some humorous SNL sketch. While others have mile long threads about complaints or problems with their cameras without anyone from Red chiming in giving answers. The good ol days and fun at this forum feels over and I think it's because of the confusing line up of cameras existing right now. I mean, what was the purpose of Helium when Monstro was around the corner? Who really wants a Helium when there's Monstro?

So yeah, back to the complaining part. I do it because some people has to. I don't consider myself complaining like an asshole just trash talking bullshit in order to pick a fight. I speak with my honest feelings about the Red system, something I feel less and less people do in here. It's either trash talk or it's unconditional love and praise.

I want to see ONE Red camera. I want to see a new kind of Red One, something special, disrupting in price that shakes the foundations of the industry. Something that people have a hard time believing in and when released people's jaws drops. That was what it was like with the Red One. We need something new, not something that feels like a system that gets patches over patches and doesn't seem to know what it is. We need the innovative minds to step back, sit down, relax and take some time into building something that will last. No other camera in the Red linup has ever lasted in the same way as the Red One. It's still a valid camera... while the Weapon MG got pulled from the shop a few weeks after it's launch. If this isn't an alarm bell that somethings screwed up, I don't know what.

All while Arri sits there like a Zen master just saying the words, relax, create, breathe... hard not to embrace the soothing atmosphere of creativity it enables. I don't feel any zen with Red anymore, even if the system is better than ever.

 

[Brian Merlen]

you ever try arri raw? you can go higher resolution and have more control vs baked in log c or whatever? i think the best way is to serve both markets if you can afford it, used reds and arris are cheap these days. Or you can settle for mid level ones instead of full framed expensive ones? I try to do this myself by offering older arris, newer ones, and the newest reds in my inventory.

as much smack as i talk about uprezzing or the fact this isn't necessarily 4k after debayering id still love to own one of these LFs or their next sensor? ive heard forever they have a 6k s35 next gen in testing, but hell if i know more than that? the LF would be cool though just considering the current stock i have and adding to full frame. ive pestered them to sell the 65 the entire time they had it out so maybe i helped prompt this unholy non s35 beast lol? more options are always a good thing. shame no upgrade path, all my older units aren't even worth upgrading to XR modules or whatever tbh. LF looks cool despite the debaying issue, and id totally buy it if i could afford it, which i dont think i can atm but ill try to do so anyway if i can

 

[C. Burkhart]

I think someone needs to talk to Netflix about Nyquist limit and how this new Arri camera is "fake 4k" LMFAO


http://www.cinematography.com/index.php?showtopic=60082

Seriously after all the crap Arri talked about how 4k isn't needed, how you can't even view it because of viewing distance and angles, how debayering makes the image not even 4k and how important it is to have S35 legacy...


I feel like the Alexa LF must be called out for everything they did to the Red One! Someone must confront Netflix on the debayering issue and prevent this tragedy lol

https://backlothelp.netflix.com/hc/...duction-and-Post-Production-Requirements-v2-1

They cant shrink the pixels so they made it bigger than S35, like really? After all the various attacks on the Red one, or on Red for sensor sizes sometimes being smaller or larger than historical arri standards, they do this? Its honestly like between the alexa mini and this everything Arri ever attacked Red about has now been done by arri themselves. so crazy to see this after hearing everything I did for so long on how red shouldn't do it this way or that?

at least hydrogen one cant easily be mimicked by arri like they did on the mini and now the LF, reds so far ahead in innovation now its a shame to see arri copying so many things they scoffed at for years tbh.

i own both and love both but the level of bs here is astounding given all the historical attacks by arri on all these same issues

You must be joking.
The majority of attacks have been made by Red owners over the years.
I have watched people here bandy around specs as a justification why RED is better than Arri for almost a decade.
I almost never hear an Arri owner or anyone from the company denigrate RED.
People really need to get over the paranoia and conspiracy theories about how Arri has cornered the market.
They really need to get over Nyquist, debayering, resolution, pixel size, etc.

There is one reason above all that people chose the Alexa.
Because they prefer the image. That's it.

 

[Alex Bros]

This is a really interesting thread. A lot of people seem scared about their investments, which is fair. I'm in that boat too as my Weapon is literally in Irvine getting Monstro'd right now so I have more skin in the game then many. I mean, I probably wouldn't buy an Alexa LF anyway but yeah I'm a little concerned about what this means for my $30k investment. With this upgrade my camera was going to become less of a personal camera and more of an investment that I leave at one of the big local rental shops... and I was probably going to buy a Raven or Scarlet-W to become my personal cam once some rental revenue comes in, which makes more sense maybe. Anyway there's a few things that put me at ease:

-Weight and size. An LF Mini is probably 2+ years away. It'll take them a while to shrink it down, test, announce and finally ship it and it will go into backorder immediately, heh. Let's not forget the delays with the SXT btw. I'm sure they know everyone wants the smaller form factor and they would have done that already if it was easy. My guess is the size has a lot to do with the boards required to stitch those two sensors together before monitoring/recording and deal with the heat. Since the Mini came out, I've only done a handful of jobs on a studio style Alexa (Classic and Amira. XT and SXT were basically dead in the water outside of big features/shows, far as I can tell). The size/weight of the LF will be a deal breaker for many and I think we'll see big shows mix Alexa LF and Monstro until the LF Mini actualizes.

-Power. What's the draw? I looked it up; 116 watts, more at startup. Won't bother everyone but thats a bummer for a lot of the types of shoots I really enjoy doing (Nature, travel, doc, run-n-gun etc).

-Raw and FPS. Yes the Mini can do raw (up to 30fps internal) but almost nobody shoots Arri-Raw, it's so unwieldy. Most will probably shoot the LF in 4k Prores (with a lower max FPS) so that pretty much evens out. Also I'm spoiled by R3D.

-Upgrades. XT/SXT owners are left out in the cold, which sucks considering the beating they got from the Mini. Amira owners got screwed pretty badly when the Mini came out too. Red has an amazing track record for looking after their customers with their upgrade programs (in my experience). It's largely why I didn't switch to the Mini when it was announced and ended up doubling down on Weapon CF instead, and that's gone pretty well hence my move to Monstro. It's interesting that this is already affecting the used Mini market, makes me wonder if the LF's main competition is actually going to be the Mini (People who want Alexa color and small form factor). Phil, where did you see this 30k Mini Package? asking for a friend... And then what about this new system/sensor from Arri that we've been hearing whispers about? Was this it or is something else close on the horizon?

-Color. I'll give Arri this, they have the highlight rolloff and saturation figured out and many people are rather beholden to the Alexa look straight out of camera and it is really good, undeniably. Now Red has IPP2, which really narrows that playing field BUT it's only available in camera for Helium and Monstro bodies. Helium is nice but the highlights suffer a bit, Weapon Dragon with IPP2 is awesome except you can't really monitor that in camera, so can you really shoot like that? I have been but it's kinda risky... also Red looking a bit different is a plus in some ways. I think many of the coolest, best looking shows shoot Red, ie Stranger Things, Mr Robot etc. I hear a lot of good things about Monstro's color (some here say superior to Alexa) and I look forward to testing it, particularly on diverse skin tones and/or mixed lighting.

-Noise/sensitivity. Alexa is pretty noisy (and in the mid-tones?). In the past 2 years owning my Weapon CF I've really noticed this. I mean it's pretty "filmic" and doesn't bother most people but it kinda screams at me sometimes. I'm sure the A2X is cleaner than regular size Alev just due to physics and Arri has said they've got some new temporal noise reduction in camera, but I'd still bet Monstro will be (much?) more sensitive/cleaner.

-Modularity. One thing that really differentiates Arri and Red's MO and it's a double edged sword. I like that I can build the Weapon in so many different ways (usually it ends up looking like a franken-hasselblad cabled to a fanny-pack, which I often do with Alexa Mini as well but it's not quite as nice) and I can cover my ass with back up parts/ports. That said, getting a completely different rig depending on where you rent the camera from is annoying for AC's and Operators. Will people even use the built in FIZ and wireless video of the LF? Are those modules field-replaceable? Seems most feature AC's use Prestons (for good reason) and I'm not sure the VTR Operators will be keen to spend 10-20K on proprietary wireless receivers when most have their Teradek or Boxx systems dialled in.

There's more things to consider. Obviously resolution, future-proofing, raw + proxy recording (finally useable, for me), outdated conceptions of reliability/reputation, mixing with DXL2 and the lovely library of Panavision glass, lens mount options... but I think I'm over being nervous about the LF and back to being stoked about my newborn Monstro. They are very different beasts after all.

 

[Sergio Perez]

I’m a firm believer that once Monstro gets into more talented owner operators, into High end fashion/photography/filmmaking, this notion will change.

“Everyone” will go Alexa FF right now. But our industry works very much with word of mouth. The more Monstros out there wowing audiences, from the High end to the indie creative, the more chance this image can be changed.

Not saying to bargain sale monstros, but maybe make more options available for long time costumers to upgrade their Weapons?

I’m counting my penies to be able to upgrade my Helium to Monstro. 6 years with Red and every single camera has been absolutely fantastic. The strengh of Red is not only its resolution, but versatility. I see Red Cameras as a racing car that is able to win races but you need to be knowledgeable of not only driving it, but how the car works. Its a manual transmission racing car. The Arri is an automatic transmission one.

In the high end productions, where DPs and teams constantly change and also for rental businesses this might be seen as a minus. Productions just don't have the time to test, do black shading profiles, know about the color and noise characteristics of every OLPF, etc. Very few DP's, Operators or even Rental Houses can provide immediate detailed information of these. The Arris however are much more easier to just "grab and shoot". I'm sure, however, a DOP that is invested in REDs is much more knowledgeable in overall Post Work Flow, in the intricacies of Sensor optimal temperature, in OLPFs that the average DOP that works mainly in ARRis. I like this. I like to have more control. I like to understand what's going on. Driving "manual" makes me obviously a better automatic driver.

For me, a, Red camera, in the owner/operator/ independent house world I’m in, is a plus. I know exactly what I can do with it both in production and in post. And its versatility with the features it has is unparalleled.

I remember Peter Jackson Saying he put his Red One in the Trunk of his car and just loved shooting with it. While I work in TV Commercials and High End event footage capture for Commercial use, I also use my camera to create individual work as if a brush of a painter. Lets not forget we are also , bread and butter aside, artists of the audiovisual. May it be awarded by the academy in a multi million dollar production, or in a galery exhibition or on an International or Local Commercial, we are "artists" for hire, but also artists. Red's , with its operator friendly design, by being lightweight, self contained in a portable form factor easily manageable by a single operator, by allowing the use of different mounts, different power options, allows me to use them beyond the strict confinement of "profession", if you know what I mean. And lets not forget the versatility of Redcode Raw.

Coming back to the Professional, Narrative/High End Commercial World, the industry works very much with the perception of "mastery". A DOP, a Camera Operator, a Director, specially on the higher end, higher paid jobs, create their own, personal "brand" as excelling professionals. They can't afford to pioneer too much on the bleeding edge, to be subject to hiccups, to achieve results that they can't control (bare a selected few that are legendary "brands" themselves). Also they just don't want to learn new processes, and their time cannot be used in countless tests in the most demanding scenarios. They go to where they "trust", who give them confidence they won't look bad, have the fewer technical issues and can control the results.

When Red entered the Scene, everyone was either on Film, or on those early Sony 2/3rds million costing cameras. Red was made by a bunch of Crazy individuals that came on a mission to change the Filmmaking World. And they did, with the help of a bunch of pioneers and forward thinking talented individuals, as well as a global maverick bunch of filmmakers and DOPs that embraced the Red Revolution to challenge the "establishment". Without the Red One, there wouldn't have been the Alexas, the Sonys S35, FF, etc.

Its through the independents and also those Talented visionaries that have a lifetime of work that excels, who are above the "system", that Red showed, and still shows the true potential of their product.

Red's attitude and position since day one has been of going beyond existing barriers, of challenging the status quo. Of empowering not only the established industry, but to open doors to creativity and to make the camera much more connected to the operator.

For me, Red Cameras are cameras that are made for every DOP to OWN. Its an equipment to make money, for big teams but also to be used by the individual.

Red is and will always be Red. People will always talk down on RED, will not understand the workflow or simply disregard the equipment vs ARRi's offerings. Its not a question of what camera is best. Its a question of perception, but also what I believe each brand is about.

I'm sure Jim, Jarred, everyone at RED first and foremost when starting designing each camera they start by thinking "Which camera would I want to OWN, to have? What do I want it to do?" . What this translates all the time is a Camera that is capable of doing things every other camera on the market can't. The power is on the operator itself. Arri, on the other hand, answers just a simple, yet important question. "What camera does the cinema world wants?" The Arris are not for Fashion. Not for High End FX work. Not for Galleries. Not for an owner/operator to create an art piece, or for a small crew of independents to make a guerrilla style feature or short. They are not for experiments , for cutting edge applications. They are Movie Cameras For Fiction, full stop. And all they focus is on being the best on that . And by being the best is not the best image- but every single thing related to its workflow, ergonomics, post and application. Reds are more than that. But its so much more that those that do not commit to understand it end up with the perception that its inferior.

Back to Full Frame/Vista. loved Guardians of the Galaxy 2. I loved Dragon FF in it. It was just something else. But I am sure Full Frame will be absolutely stunning in Monstro and specially in Indie, Drama Films. You know a camera I really, really loved, with all its moire and line skipping issues, for its look? The Canon 5D Mark II. I've seen countless award winning indie films shot on it. That vista look when properly used, even on such a low tech camera, is simply marvellous.

Just let myself rant and go with the Flow of thought here. Anyway, Really excited for this new Full Frame Cinema world we are going to get into. The convergence of Films and Stills is finally mature.

 

[David Peterson]

And i still maintain this Alexa is the same as the old Alexa but two sensors glued together. It's not a leap in image quality at all.

That is because Arri didn't NEED a leap in image quality.

Which is very impressive when you consider their sensor is a decade old!! :-o
(You can't say the same about the RED M sensor)

All Arri needed to do is tick off one more spec box: 4K

Boom.

Mission Accomplished.

I’d expect it to be quite a long time before Arri solves the heat problems required to put an LF sensor into a Mini form factor. There is a reason the LF is the size it is.

I'm sure that is what Mini owners are hoping! Will greatly extend their lifecycle if a Mini LF doesn't come out.

Because the Mini and Alexa LF share the same sensor tech at their core, the Mini can very very easily slot in alongside the Alexa LF on productions.

 

[David Peterson]

Though my favorite camera to use is hands down the amira. it has the best ergonomics, so easy to use, not much can go wrong, ive never had an issue, shoots 200fps, easy to manage prores files, built in NDs, it's just my personal favorite. now if i saw those go for under 20k, then id have a real issue with the dilemma of my thought of only owning something cheap for my personal use. above 20k, im just not interested in owning anything, tech moves too fast.

There is one other thought, as i get into shooting documentaries, my first one went to tiff and sold to amazon, shot on 5D, my latest one in post production shot on the production companies hvx2000 and is in post right now, i dont think arri or red have any edge in doc film making. the main reason i agreed to the hvx is that the sound capabilities blew my mind and it had 4k Vlog, a built in monitor, built in eye piece, a battery that would last two days! red nor arri have this going for them as they dont concentrate on sound. docs are becoming such a big part of the industry now, what would blow my mind would be making an all in one red doc style camera! i wont hold my breath, but that is my next pruchase most likely, a small easy to use, small battery, 4k doc style camera with great sound capabilities, built in!

I'm sure a used Amira for around $20K is not that far away, if one was to get lucky.

Why didn't you use say a Sony FS7 for the doco?

Or if you were shooting today, I'd suggest checking out the Panasonic EVA1, this is sound recorded internally on it:

Back in the 80's when I was working as a software engineer for a small computer systems company we submitted a bank branch computer system to a major national bank for evaluation. So did IBM. The bank's evaluation team selected our system over IBM saying it better met the bank's needs and was more affordable. However, a senior bank executive nixed the choice and told the evaluation team to pick IBM. When we asked why, we were told "no executive has ever been fired for choosing IBM." I'm sure no DP has ever been fired for choosing an Arri Alexa.

Yup, this is a very famous saying:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fear,_uncertainty_and_doubt

https://www.quora.com/What-does-the-phrase-Nobody-ever-got-fired-for-choosing-IBM-mean

https://www.forbes.com/sites/homayc...delimma-nobody-ever-got-fired-for-buying-ibm/

 

[David Peterson]

Sam, on your recommendation, I impulsively just looked up the Varicam and got this (image attached below):

Read the article for context: http://www.panasonicforbusiness.com/2017/08/10858/

 

[David J. Buchanan]

If you don't believe Arri is gonna kill the game with rentals, you're dreaming. RED's are owner/ops that's what's keeping em in business. And I agree 100% if they lessened the price of the Monstro most of us with Weapons would upgrade and bring more share into the market that way. Thus competing with the Arri Alexa LF

 

[jordan levy]

Why didn't you use say a Sony FS7 for the doco?

Or if you were shooting today, I'd suggest checking out the Panasonic EVA1, this is sound recorded internally on it:

the compnay owned the panasonic, i did some tests with a post house and found it acceptable.

 

[Thai Christen]

for example, commercials wont blink at eye at camera pkg cost, ive actually done yogurt commercial campaigns with $8k phantom packages. commercials have the most money to spend and before im even hired the director and producers already have an alexa pkg in the budget and sometimes on hold, there's not even a question what the camera choice is, the choice im normally making is what lenses to use, vintage or modern, primes or zooms.

I second this.

the cable television show meetings go like this, can we get alexas?

In the mid to high end drone commercial world, preproduction meetings go like this:

director/producer: can you fly Alexa Mini? We already have two (sometimes three) in the package.
me: sure of course! BUT YOUR insurance has to cover Mini in case of an incident. I have never had an incident in the past 5 years. But you never know with drones, right?

Then it can go either
A) director/producer: don't worry, we cover it. So what lenses can you fly? etc. etc.

OR
B) director/producer: hmm not sure, we have to check with rental (NOTE: some rental companies exclude insurance for drone use!)
me: no problem. However, I own a RED Helium. With new RED color science, it produces stunning images similar to Arri. Can shoot ProRes and RED RAW simultanously etc etc. If we fly with my RED, my insurance will cover everything. You don't have to worry (trying to be smart, right?).

OR
C) me: where are we shooting? 3000m (10'000 feet) altitude above sea level and more, I would rather shoot with RED due to weight. I can fly with Mini, but less flight time.


From here, in most cases we agreed that we shoot with my RED for aerial. Most directors/producers are fine with that.
Great for me because I can add a huge markup for my RED Helium

Overall, I would say it is 70/30 for RED vs. Arri Mini. Maybe this is because I shoot a lot at high altitude.

above 20k, im just not interested in owning anything, tech moves too fast.

Kinda agree. Although I think EpicW (more expensive if you add up all the accessoires) is still a good investment and camera to own.

 

[paulcurtis]

How quickly people forget. The Alexa has only existed for about 8 years. Essentially all "seasoned DP's" grew up with film. One reason they gravitated to the Alexa was it was the first of the digital cameras to come close to the film aesthetic in particular ways that appealed to film trained cinematographers in ways that Red and Sony did not.

I think we're agreeing which is why i said Arri and not Alexa

Why does Arri need to make a "leap in image quality" when they already produce what most cinematographers consider the most desirable image? And what, to you, would constitute a "leap in image quality?"

I don't think they do. I mentioned that because this thread went off on an image quality thing and i was saying that it's the same as standard Alexa, just more pixels. Both Alexa and Red produce images that are plenty good enough. Personally i prefer the Red image to work with. I just don't see why the LF has sparked all this panic suddenly! I mean Arri now join the party in reducing lens options too - all that s35 glass isn't as useful anymore for Arri too.

cheers
Paul

 

[paulcurtis]

That is because Arri didn't NEED a leap in image quality.

I know, i was trying to draw attention to the fact that this thread went off on an image quality issue and nothing has changed (for 8 years)

Although truth has to be told i don't find the Alexa any better than most other cameras - i think there's some awesome marketing work and brand positioning going on. Like the old IBM adage, no one got fired for choosing IBM.

I've always failed to see what's so special about the image.

cheers
Paul

 

[Patrick Tresch]

I've always failed to see what's so special about the image.l

+1 actually I hate it. Lack of clarity, colors, contrasts, fake resolution...


Let me cheer!

FAKE RESOLUTION!

LOL

 

[paulcurtis]

The Alex LF will probably eat away any Red productions in Sweden, there won't be anything else but some commercials, drone shots and corporate videos. Doesn't matter what the tech specs are, this is the reality of the industry. If you get the question now: "why Red?" after the LF is out and you try to convince with pixel count and downsampling math, people will just shake their heads and go for the LF.

Yes, but my point was really that the Red is an owner/operator camera first and foremost - isn't that the whole marketing strategy? It's priced for that and not rentals and that is a larger market for Red.

I do understand what you are encountering in your market and understand the difficulties.

But it's through work like the resolution discussion here : http://michaelcioni.tumblr.com that perhaps minds can change.

Maybe someone (Red) needs to tackle it face on, and do comparisons to dispel (or even confirm) various unconscious biases going on. That's a tricky one because it becomes very subjective. When there was that Alexa vs Red comparison on nofilmschool a while back it just highlighted that the post work has to be done properly or the whole thing doesn't work. The images that folks here on reduser posted from the same R3Ds were *much* better than the ones being shown there. There's an inherent mistrust of these tests because usually there's some kind of bias or a better working knowledge of one system over another. I have no idea how you would counter that.

cheers
Paul

 

[Patrick Tresch]

Yes, but my point was really that the Red is an owner/operator camera first and foremost - isn't that the whole marketing strategy? It's priced for that and not rentals and that is a larger market for Red.

I don't think it was purely a strategy, they would have loved both if they could have. But remember their REDUSER base came from Panasonics HVX-200. DXL was the first turn to the ONY renting market and now with the Weapon Monstro VV wich gets the camera further away from us.

RED didn't enter the rental market easely because of :

- RAW R3D workflow VS Prores (wich was difficult to post-produce and only Scratch did handle it profesionally during too long due to the NDA agreement)
- 17'500 VS 150'000 wich package do you prefer if you are a renting company? The one with the bigger margin I think.

The owner operator surely also killed a bit the renting market. (I'm one of them.... Mea culpa)

Pat

 

[Christoffer Glans]

I’m a firm believer that once Monstro gets into more talented owner operators, into High end fashion/photography/filmmaking, this notion will change.

“Everyone” will go Alexa FF right now. But our industry works very much with word of mouth. The more Monstros out there wowing audiences, from the High end to the indie creative, the more chance this image can be changed.

But this has happened before. When Dragon came out it was a true milestone, even greater than Helium and Monstro when comparing it to the MX. People all over the industry praised it and most Red haters converted to saying it looked really great... But Arri still continued owning the game. I can without a doubt say that Monstro will not even the odds with the LF on the market. The Red will probably be used for some commercials, many inde-filmmakers who can't afford bigger guns, owner operators doing corporate videos, fashion videos demanding high resolutions and so on. But if we're talking filmmaking and movies for cinema or television, as well as series for streaming services like Netflix, the only ones shooting Red will probably be the ones already established with Red cameras. Like Mindhunter and maybe even Daredevil and alike, maybe even Stranger Things. I don't think that Fincher would stop using Red, he's got a good relationship with Jannard and Red, getting customized gear, but if that would ever happen, that Fincher goes to the competitor, that would be a serious blow.

I think people underestimates the power of the high profile names in the industry choosing a certain camera. It has ripple effects down the food chain. If the biggest most talked about productions in the world shoot on Arri's, others want to follow: "look at that show or film, they chose Arri for a reason", might be the notion. I can absolutely guarantee that one of the biggest reasons there are so many people in Sweden shooting with Alexas is because of us looking up towards the big brothers in Hollywood. This industry looks at Hollywood and many of us want to replicate it. Because our film industry isn't focused on blockbuster type movies, we look at all the dramas and Oscar-lineup movies which are rarely anything else than Arri cameras or 35mm.

And the best version of Red is the DXL, not even promoted as a Red camera, but a Panavision. And the productions using it, is as far as I know, not the large events of the year type of movies or probable Oscar picks. Not yet, anyway. But when that happens, people are gonna talk about Panavision, not Red, whatever technology is inside it.