Steadicam Group Buy - Select your model

[Elizabeth Lowrey]

Thicker post for better control, electronics, approx 2x weight rating. With the Laing I can do my own thing, with my slimmed down Scarlet package. Proline can fly any current camera. . . .
Laing and Proline play at different price points and max loads, I see demand for both. Just like Epic vs Scarlet. At list price the Laing is an amaizing usable product, I just booked two more shoot days with the Laing + Scarlet.

So question, David: if you were only going to be flying lighter rigs (<21 lbs, and assuming the springs in the new group buy Laing product will very comfortably fly that amount), and if, like me and some others, you didn't care about junction boxes and would prefer to run your own cables through the post, would you feel it still worth the extra investment to go with the Proline? Do you feel that in the vast majority of situations (and with ample practice, of course) you could obtain as good a shots on the Laing as on the Proline from a light rig?

Also, some of us have requested, and Laing are considering, a wider post, primarily to accommodate varied cabling easier. Realizing of course that you don't actually have that modified rig to compare, I'm curious if your instincts are that that would make the two products even closer in performance on light rigs.

 

[david_winters]

So question, David: if you were only going to be flying lighter rigs (<21 lbs, and assuming the springs in the new group buy Laing product will very comfortably fly that amount)

Yes, buy the Laing in this case. My Scarlet hand held setup cost about the same, lol.

you didn't care about junction boxes and would prefer to run your own cables through the post, would you feel it still worth the extra investment to go with the Proline?

I can can solder, love ebay and monoprice. So, making cables or buying throw aways does not scare me at all.

The Proline runs in 12 or 24v and allows up to 3 batts at the base, so much more flexible for power and counter balance, from the factory.

On the Laing I spent about $600-700 on a new base, battery plates and brackets (exact price in another thread). But I like to tweak things, so I would be doing the same with a $30,000 setup.

Do you feel that in the vast majority of situations (and with ample practice, of course) you could obtain as good a shots on the Laing as on the Proline from a light rig?

Yes

Also, some of us have requested, and Laing are considering, a wider post, primarily to accommodate varied cabling easier. Realizing of course that you don't actually have that modified rig to compare, I'm curious if your instincts are that that would make the two products even closer in performance on light rigs.

Currently the post is wide enough to pass one Scarlet Lemo, one BNC, one USB female. I could get a HDMI in there as well, but the HDMI would have to run first. Getting cables though the post is a 15 minute job, assuming you need to remove the stage. Running cables is a non-issue. The big benefit I see to a wider post is for the larger dia hand grip, makes panning and position control easier. Wider post = wider gimbal, which means new gimbal design. In the case of Laing, I would stick with the stock model, as it is a smoking value at list price. If you can get it for less via GB even better.

 

[Chris Poynton]

Currently the [Laing] post is wide enough to pass one Scarlet Lemo, one BNC, one USB female. I could get a HDMI in there as well, but the HDMI would have to run first. Getting cables though the post is a 15 minute job, assuming you need to remove the stage. Running cables is a non-issue. The big benefit I see to a wider post is for the larger dia hand grip, makes panning and position control easier. Wider post = wider gimbal, which means new gimbal design. In the case of Laing, I would stick with the stock model, as it is a smoking value at list price. If you can get it for less via GB even better.

Thanks David! Great to know a lot of cables can be run! Sounds like open architecture is the way to go, and eliminate the fuss of J-boxes.

If the inner diameter of the Laing post is sufficient for peoples' cabling needs but they still want the feel of a larger diameter post, they just have to find a way to add diameter to the "gimbal sleeve" (i.e. the actual area that you place fingers on).

This can be done with rigid materials (e.g. standard PVC 2-inch plumbing pipe has an ideal outer diameter, but we would have to check specs of current gimbal sleeve as to compatible diameters, whether it can slide over easily, if it needs packing, etc ... and of course the fitting of this requires the ability to remove gimbal from post by removing all hardware from one end of the post). Photos and calliper measurements of current sleeve would be handy if anyone has the time or existing references.

Some operators (with other commericial and DIY rigs) have had success adding soft materials like foam sleeving and tennis racket grip tape to the gimbal sleeve. This creates a different friction feel for the fingers, and is entirely down to preference. Soft material might adversely affect fine control over some panning movements like whip pans where you rely on the post sliding smoothly through your fist. Conversely, soft material may be an advantage for instance in very cold conditions (for numb fingers) or in hot conditions (for sweaty fingers).

 

[David Kellermann]

While I'm happy that the discussion came back to modifying the M02, since it's still for a big part of the group the only option, I would be happy if you could move this discussion to the customization thread.

Let's keep this thread about the other systems.

 

[Carey Lee Coffey]

+ 1

 

[John Brennick]

Did Nick ever post the footage from the proline and the red one? Curious to see it.

 

[David Kellermann]

Did Nick ever post the footage from the proline and the red one? Curious to see it.

Not yet. Want to see it too :smile:

 

[nickmilo]

Hey Guys... working on it right now-- I'll have it up in a little bit Got a lot of footage, so I'm breaking up the videos to a couple parts, so you can see the full overview of the proline rig, davids rig, and the test footage.

 

[Vitaliy Kiselev]

This can be done with rigid materials (e.g. standard PVC 2-inch plumbing pipe has an ideal outer diameter, but we would have to check specs of current gimbal sleeve as to compatible diameters, whether it can slide over easily, if it needs packing, etc ... and of course the fitting of this requires the ability to remove gimbal from post by removing all hardware from one end of the post). Photos and calliper measurements of current sleeve would be handy if anyone has the time or existing references.

It is best just ask Laing about offering rubber outing for gimbal sleeve.

And I want to offer all who posted related messages to move into Laing modifications topic, as this one is about different options.

 

[nickmilo]

So, here is the video from the PROLINE / LAING test... word of warning: they are LONG. It's not a polished edit, it was all whipped together rather quickly from a crazy long day of running around and testing -- but I figure, the more footage the better...

I just tried to do my best of getting all the info on there-- the first two are overviews of each system, and the last video is the raw footage straight out of the cameras: No CC, so please excuse the glaring differences in footage, especially the exposure differences towards the end of the day -- I just tried to get it done and up...

And two last warnings: I forgot to turn off the IS on my 5D, so yea, please excuse the annoying grinding sound while talking, and b/c there was no audio, I just threw in some M83 over the stabilizer footage, so if you don't like em, please feel free to mute the sound

Laing Overview

Proline Overview

Stabilizer Footage

Here is some bonus footage that David put together if you haven't seen it yet - some good BTS footage of the rigs in action

 

[Brett Harrison]

Thanks nick, my 'new posts' finger was getting serious RSI.

 

[Greg Cheng]

That was amazing footage as insight to the rigs, definitely worth the wait. The overview and test footage is just what everyone needs to better understand what we are buying, so I applaud and thank everyone involved in the OC meetup.

In my opinion, each rig has it's +/- with cost, accessories, manufacturing, and ease of use, but I realize it really comes down to the operator being good at what he/she does with the equipment. Really evaluate what you are getting with your money and make the best decision.

 

[Elizabeth Lowrey]

Much thanks to Nick, David, John, and anyone else from REDUser I missed that participated in the tests (and thanks to the guys from Proline for offering a rig to test). The overviews were informative and I especially appreciated the way the shots were performed with multiple operators and takes and then recapitulated in split screens. Really gives an opportunity for meaningful comparison. Again, thanks to all who participated and to David, of course, for spearheading the whole effort.

 

[nickmilo]

In my opinion, each rig has it's +/- with cost, accessories, manufacturing, and ease of use, but I realize it really comes down to the operator being good at what he/she does with the equipment. Really evaluate what you are getting with your money and make the best decision.

Couldn't have said it better, I think the moral of the story is that it comes to the operator and not the gear, as both systems are capable of pulling good shots--

A couple of us that were less experienced were all over the place, but if you see Davids first shot with the Proline-- I think it turned out great, testament to the practice he put in with the Laing... Age old argument about owing a RED and the footage that comes out of it... its not a magic camera that gives you amazing shots with no effort, its a tool, as are light kits and color grading suites...

For me, the added benefits of the payload, build quality, electronics, post+gimbal size... have me going Proline. You have to consider what you're gonna use it for, and what features you really need-- every piece of equipment you buy is an investment-- if this is something you seriously want to consider doing vs an extra tool in a toolbox you are offering in your productions...

Edit: Just realized how many times I said "yeah" and "m-hm" in the video... Potential fodder of a drinking game or something

 

[Jean Maurizio]

Thanks Nick and thanks to all are involved in these test and this group buy.

I really like the two systems, I have a Red One and until I don't see new arm and implementation from the good Vitaliy (That i know since some time ago trought his amazing forum and I always had great esteem for the person he is), for now I have only the Proline option to fly my cams, and i really like Luciano's approach and kindness. (I also own a couple of 35mm Konvas, weight is essential for me). It seems to me Proline can be also an investment for the future, or (if we, in Italy, continue to go in recession) a very good resale value

Let me be straight: if i had money enough, i should have buy the two systems.

Now just waiting for last updates to jump in a group buy!

Cheers

Jean

 

[constantine Tirintzis]

My experience in steadicam over many years will tell you that no matter what system of the 2 you will choose, its up to you and your practising to make it work better or worst. Normally you can get going in a week or so producing steadicam like moves with flows in horizon alignment while panning and other little small errors, that will be there for quite a lot of time before you perfect them into fluid and error free steadicam moves. Certain parts of your devise will give you a little of a hard time, but hey you know the feeling when you drop your perfect bike and the steering is alittle bent , first time tou go on it it feels terrible, but after a while riding, you get used to it , its the same case, and you will get to get by with the errors of your system, where ever that can be, and you will only feel the difference if flying a better more pro rig.
In all my main reason on this thread is to try and advice to get a better device for this little money so you have more features and correct parts to start with.
Other than that I will say that practising, practising, and practising will make you a better op no matter what system you fly. And its probably be enough for your projects.
But other than that, I cant see anyone hire you to do steadicam work with this, and the expectations can be really demanding for this.
So good luck to all buyers and I will be glad to help out for more exlaining or even issues of the systems.
have fun

 

[Brett Harrison]

My experience in steadicam over many years will tell you that no matter what system of the 2 you will choose, its up to you and your practising to make it work better or worst. Normally you can get going in a week or so producing steadicam like moves with flows in horizon alignment while panning and other little small errors, that will be there for quite a lot of time before you perfect them into fluid and error free steadicam moves. Certain parts of your devise will give you a little of a hard time, but hey you know the feeling when you drop your perfect bike and the steering is alittle bent , first time tou go on it it feels terrible, but after a while riding, you get used to it , its the same case, and you will get to get by with the errors of your system, where ever that can be, and you will only feel the difference if flying a better more pro rig.
In all my main reason on this thread is to try and advice to get a better device for this little money so you have more features and correct parts to start with.
Other than that I will say that practising, practising, and practising will make you a better op no matter what system you fly. And its probably be enough for your projects.
But other than that, I cant see anyone hire you to do steadicam work with this, and the expectations can be really demanding for this.
So good luck to all buyers and I will be glad to help out for more exlaining or even issues of the systems.
have fun

Appreciate your continued attention here Konstantinos.

Could you go into more detail?

 

[constantine Tirintzis]

well ask me what you d like to know and I can try and help out. Iam a designer of all kind of devices so I can let you know what to look for. Unfortunatly I have not flown any of those 2 rigs, but I can still advice you for every kind of issue you will have, and where is coming from so you can pay attenstion to it. The proline looks to use the 3a spring configuration, eventually its a tested and easy design that works over many years so it will not give you any trouble. If the arm is strong with good bearings, and cnc d with precision the arm will work well.
there are a lot of preload technics on this design with different strength of springs and most manufactures sort this out before they deside on springs. But in general I dont think it will be a problem. The most importand part is the gimbal and that will give you alot of trouble if its not made 100% with accurate aligments of axis. There are test you can perform to find out.
as for the vest I cant comment since I havent tested this very product, but if it s confortable and doesnt squick or fuck with your body in any way , and its strong enough it will do the job ok.
I can asnwer in specific questions if you have some either for mechanical or operating, the only thing I wont do is contribute data to a Chinese manufacturer to copy the original steadicam patents that are still on, so please dont ask about isoelasticity and one spring design ( look G50, G70, or even flyer)
thanks

 

[constantine Tirintzis]

first advice if you get a laing system is to get rid of the tilt stage. It fairly obvious that it doesnt work, and also fairly obvious that the manufacturer has absolutelly no idea when and how this is used and the trouble you go into with it.
a super post would only make sense of its use, but it still has to have way more features that the one you are seeing.
thanks

 

[Vitaliy Kiselev]

the only thing I wont do is contribute data to a Chinese manufacturer to copy the original steadicam patents that are still on, so please dont ask about isoelasticity and one spring design ( look G50, G70, or even flyer)

Can you provide links to Tiffen patents considering isoelasticity and one spring design arms? Or you mean here special measures to reach isoelasticity of one spring design arms?

first advice if you get a laing system is to get rid of the tilt stage. It fairly obvious that it doesnt work, and also fairly obvious that the manufacturer has absolutelly no idea when and how this is used and the trouble you go into with it.

Hmm, and who prevents you to fix it and do not touch if you do not like it? Also try not to attack manufacturer, keep comments on tech side.