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  • Hey all, just changed over the backend after 15 years I figured time to give it a bit of an update, its probably gonna be a bit weird for most of you and i am sure there is a few bugs to work out but it should kinda work the same as before... hopefully :)

Arri Alexa and Mysterium-X...

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Dwight Tudor said:
I've never heard/read that incident and spot meters are calibrated to different settings, that kinda defeats the purpose. I would love to hear that from someone else, like say... David Mullen who I'm sure can give us a detailed explanation of what Deanan is talking about. I'm guessing it has something to do with certain skin tones or shooting printed paper.

In any case I meter using incident. You also can't blame my grey cards because I've tested using multiple cards and multiple calibrated meters, all showing the same results repeatedly.
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http://www.bythom.com/graycards.htm
Kodak do have instructions on the use of a grey card.
http://www.cameraguild.com/technology/gray_card.htm

A spot meter will read correctly if used to measure the light falling on a grey ball, not a flat grey card. An incident meter reads the light falling on a dome or small ball!
 
Since everyone has their own thoughts on how a light meter works and should be used I would love to hear the methods/procedures of how others rate the sensitivity of video cameras.
 
Dwight Tudor said:
Since everyone has their own thoughts on how a light meter works and should be used I would love to hear the methods/procedures of how others rate the sensitivity of video cameras.
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By testing, exactly the same as with film stocks. There is no one answer fits all, when shooting film I know what the stop should be by experiance, I tilt the meter until it reads what I was thiking in the first place.:lol:

When shooting Red One M sensor in tungsten light, I would use the same exposure as for Kodak 5217 (200 ISO) (set my light meter to 160ISO)
 
Stephen Williams said:
By testing, exactly the same as with film stocks. There is no one answer fits all, when shooting film I know what the stop should be by experiance, I tilt the meter until it reads what I was thiking in the first place.:lol:

When shooting Red One M sensor in tungsten light, I would use the same exposure as for Kodak 5217 (200 ISO) (set my light meter to 160ISO)
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What do you set your light meter for the MX sensor?
 
Stephen Williams said:
That's a 'Grey card plus' more than the original grey card.
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Right!

us_en_graycardplus_envelope-chart.jpg

KODAK Gray Card Plus.

LINK>>>
 
Martin Stevens said:
After reading some of Roger Deakins responses.....all I can judiciously say is........
I prefer the way David Mullen understands and talks about these issues.
:violin::violin::violin:
:violin::violin::violin:
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Yeah, that Roger Deakins sure doesn't understand how to put a beautiful image up on the big screen. I doubt he has ever been in a DI suite or supervised 2K and 4K transfers. Nah.
 
Tim H. said:
Yeah, that Roger Deakins sure doesn't understand how to put a beautiful image up on the big screen. I doubt he has ever been in a DI suite or supervised 2K and 4K transfers. Nah.
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Be fair to Martin, he didn't say that Deakins doesn't know his business, he suggested that Deakins doesn't understand digital as well as he knows film. Perhaps he was also saying that he isn't fond of his rhetoric either.
 
C'mon guys, Roger is a nice guy and he also learning about digital like all of us in this transition time.

Hope that RED Hollywood Studios will became soon a major 4K digital screening (RED Ray) , presentation and education place in LA.

Then Roger and many other cinematographers (guys and gals) should be invited to come over and have a look what is actually going on with RED.
 
As mentioned earlier, Roger has his own forum, and I'd like to share one of his posts (12/1/08 from a thread about Red One):

I know I, and probably some others too, use the comparison between 2K and 4k as a shorthand for more than pixel numbers and to including dynamic range, bit depth etc.. The bottom line, though, is that 2K (I suggest you mean 2K and not 28K - I wish!) is just not sufficient whatever the bit depth etc etc.. 4K is certainly not enough either. Experiments show that a 4K scan will only achieve something equivalent to a 2K final print given the loss of resolution from the analogue aspects of scanning and recording out.Roger
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The link is here: http://www.rogerdeakins.com/forum2/...15&sid=8a9ac3d08cd6f9f04c73e7eac7525543#p3147

PS - It's clear that Arri has "reached out" to DP's in general, and Roger in particular, which is to their credit. I hope that Red is doing likewise. There is a lot of misinformation about Red on Roger's forum (from members other than Roger). It's not clear whether Roger himself has had an opportunity to thoroughly absorb the concept of bayer patterns, LUT's, and other foundational pieces of digital imaging... some of his comments make me suspect not, or at least not at the time that he made those posts. Tangentially, it made me chuckle that he didn't believe that Red had announced plans for a 28k camera - but I think many of us felt the same incredulty when Jim announced it :).
 
Bayer patterns are utterly irrelevant though. They're a means to an end, and something that I have to worry about, and Rob with the SDK, sensor designers, etc., but beyond that, it's the image and how it looks that is important to any end user. The only people who go on about bayer patterns are for the most part fudsters or fudbusters (in response to the fudsters). Sure, there are some people who are curious and want to learn stuff and I applaud that, but they're probably in the minority. I saw a link to a fudster "article" on Roger's forum, which is nicely demolished in a rather visual manner on REDDay when we put up the zone plate from the F35 next to the RED where the picture - the image itself, tells a zero-fud story that anyone can read.

RED reaches out daily to all those interested in high quality motion imagery!

Graeme
 
Jannard said:
Tim... with all due respect, there are now about 3000 people who can attest that there is a viewable difference between 1080P/2K and 4K. Also... your generalization about pixel size is just not valid. A larger pixels does not necessarily have less noise. I'll 1st point to our own program. The M and M-X sensors have the same pixel size, yet one is 2 stops less noisy and can be pushed much more than the other. It is all about pixel design.

It appears that the Arri is showing 13.5 stops from their DRTC test. Same as we are showing from the same test. They have a bigger pixel. Both sensors feel most at home at ISO 800.

Jim
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Thanks Jim and Graeme for elucidating me.
I'll be doing the upgrade so it's good to know alot of the noise is getting squashed. As far as pro/con of each, until they're both out and I can do a proper A/B test, I'll watch from the sidelines.
 
Jannard said:
Tim... with all due respect, there are now about 3000 people who can attest that there is a viewable difference between 1080P/2K and 4K. Also... your generalization about pixel size is just not valid. A larger pixels does not necessarily have less noise. I'll 1st point to our own program. The M and M-X sensors have the same pixel size, yet one is 2 stops less noisy and can be pushed much more than the other. It is all about pixel design.

It appears that the Arri is showing 13.5 stops from their DRTC test. Same as we are showing from the same test. They have a bigger pixel. Both sensors feel most at home at ISO 800.

Jim
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The 1080p trailers for Knowing and District 9 were eye openers. I along with the other 3000 can attest to the crystal clear quality that was shown in 4K during the RED presentation and the live footage from the monitors during the EPIC demo. Both my wife were in shock at the quality we saw in the monitors. You could easily put that footage, untouched, on a Blu-ray (or RED Ray in the future) and have audiences believe they are watching a finalized scene from a big budget motion picture. Even Peter Jackson is in great anticipation to get his hands on a working EPIC. The RED One pushed digital cinematography to a new level and EPIC will be the next huge leap in the evolutionary chain. General audiences may be accepting of 1080p and 2K now, but 4K+ is the future of quality distribution and theatrical presentation.
 
Graeme Nattress said:
Bayer patterns are utterly irrelevant though. They're a means to an end, and something that I have to worry about, and Rob with the SDK, sensor designers, etc., but beyond that, it's the image and how it looks that is important to any end user. The only people who go on about bayer patterns are for the most part fudsters or fudbusters (in response to the fudsters). Sure, there are some people who are curious and want to learn stuff and I applaud that, but they're probably in the minority. I saw a link to a fudster "article" on Roger's forum, which is nicely demolished in a rather visual manner on REDDay when we put up the zone plate from the F35 next to the RED where the picture - the image itself, tells a zero-fud story that anyone can read.

RED reaches out daily to all those interested in high quality motion imagery!

Graeme
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Definitely a fair comment... I just worry about perception when I see Roger make comments like

Looks interesting, to say the least, but it's easy to project anything on an advertisement. The Red is not even close to being at a 4K yet so let's wait and see what happens in 2010.
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or

To my eye the Red Camera is not a 4K even under the optimal circumstances. Technically speaking, it can only be considered to render a 4K image in the green register and there is much debate about that.
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Makes me think he has (or at least had at that time) some misconception about Bayer...

Cheers,
Tim
 
One of the bigger misconceptions is that 1080P is really 1080P. We have yet to measure a 1080P camera (including the F35) that actually measures 1.9K.

Jim
 
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