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  • Hey all, just changed over the backend after 15 years I figured time to give it a bit of an update, its probably gonna be a bit weird for most of you and i am sure there is a few bugs to work out but it should kinda work the same as before... hopefully :)

Arri Alexa and Mysterium-X...

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Craig Ryan said:
Can't wait to see some stills, or even motion if we're lucky. I'm curious though, why ARRI hasn't jumped into the 4k world yet. I'll be the first to admit that 2k is PLENTY resolution for most work, yet it seems like an interesting decision in these times.
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According to the test and it seems to make sense: More pixels, more noise, less sensitivity, and more compression. Arri chose: fewer pixels, less compression, less noise, more sensitivity.

Personally, I don't think 4k (which for a variety reasons RED isn't quite 4k) really makes a significant difference when viewing. I've seen many a 2k show on a big screen and rez is just fine. Colorimetry, lattitude and work flow are the biggies. Being able to make a 1080 Pro Rez 444 while recording to Arri Raw at the same time, eliminating transcoding is huge. The labor costs alone make the price difference seem less.

I always wished RED went for a low noise high sensitivity 2k chip with less compression. Maybe Alexa will push it.
 
Sanjin Jukic said:
Amazing test.
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I think this test (or the summary of this test) bites. No direct A/B comparisons. No list of the exact specs, lenses or settings they used. Hopefully, we'll see the real test parameters and can make some objective decisions.

As of now it's just digital cheerleading. And how it's better than film is unclear. Sure it may eclipse it in acquisition expense but there's no objective criterion mentioned in how it beats film in performance. Can you pull more lattitude than a telecine? What's it's clip threshhold compared to film? That for me is always a deal breaker if I had the choice.
 
Tim, you forget though that when you downsample the higher resolution, you get less noise, and when you project the full resolution image at full resolution, the pixels being a smaller amount of screen area means any noise is smaller and harder to see. The lower the resolution of the image, for the same projected image size, you need even lower noise to begin with. Nothing is ever a free lunch...

And not least you need a good pixel on the sensor and the M-X pixel is very good.

The other benefits of the higher resolutions include less moire / aliasing, better defined edges, better MTF etc.

Graeme
 
"The Studebaker brothers, having become the world's leading manufacturers of horse-drawn vehicles, made a transition to gasoline engines in 1904, but they continued to build horse-drawn vehicles until 1919."

4K and beyond is where we are all headed. There will be hold-outs.
 
Tim Naylor said:
According to the test and it seems to make sense: More pixels, more noise, less sensitivity, and more compression. Arri chose: fewer pixels, less compression, less noise, more sensitivity.

Personally, I don't think 4k (which for a variety reasons RED isn't quite 4k) really makes a significant difference when viewing. I've seen many a 2k show on a big screen and rez is just fine. Colorimetry, lattitude and work flow are the biggies. Being able to make a 1080 Pro Rez 444 while recording to Arri Raw at the same time, eliminating transcoding is huge. The labor costs alone make the price difference seem less.

I always wished RED went for a low noise high sensitivity 2k chip with less compression. Maybe Alexa will push it.
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Tim... with all due respect, there are now about 3000 people who can attest that there is a viewable difference between 1080P/2K and 4K. Also... your generalization about pixel size is just not valid. A larger pixels does not necessarily have less noise. I'll 1st point to our own program. The M and M-X sensors have the same pixel size, yet one is 2 stops less noisy and can be pushed much more than the other. It is all about pixel design.

It appears that the Arri is showing 13.5 stops from their DRTC test. Same as we are showing from the same test. They have a bigger pixel. Both sensors feel most at home at ISO 800.

Jim
 
From the perspective of Network Television, I really see these cameras as being mutually beneficial and not mutually exclusive. There really is a place for both. In some very rapid turnarounds, the ProRes work flow of the Alexa is attractive. In longer form, however, where you have time to work with the superior resolution of the RED, it's brilliant. Frankly, I can even see where the AVCHD 4/3 Panasonic will be a great tool.

We work with so many mixed formats on a daily basis, I can tell you that the real question is the flexibility of your NLE. In that regard, it seems like RED and Arri are answering the same question -- How can I make the Producer's life easier?

RED pushes others to focus on the changing needs of the industry (and brother, let me tell you, they are changing fast) and deliver solutions.

It's great .. and the more the merrier. One camera will not cannibalize another.

Own an early RED 1 (with MX upgrade), going stage 2 for the Epic, and will probably buy a Scarlet or two ... The work of Arri and others is great news. Cheer them on. It just helps make a complete end to end digital production and delivery pipeline the new normal.
 
sbroock said:
The work of Arri and others is great news. Cheer them on. It just helps make a complete end to end digital production and delivery pipeline the new normal.
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Agreed... I'd rather not spend $77k on a camera that was obsolete the day it was released though. (Arri-apologists, feel free to jump on me en masse now - "ProRes without a transcode is SO great!", and "2K is good enough!" as your resounding cries). :)

- Tim
 
I also believe there will be a place for both cameras.

Having said that, it's interesting to note Arri's production schedule. I was at their booth, listening to a gentleman making a purchase. The sales rep stated that he would be camera #623. The gentleman asked how many they'd be making this year, and the sales rep answered four hundred.

That seemed like a pretty low number to me. As a late adoptee of the Red One, I can only hope that Red production is faster, as there are potentially well over five thousand Stage 2 Epic-X cameras to deliver before mine!
 
Dwight Tudor said:
My meter is calibrated and accurate. I also expect my 18% grey card to read 50% on a waveform. I know you know that that is the proper way to determine the sensitivity of any camera in real life terms.

Keep in mind if you're going to throw alot of engineer talk at me aboot why this method isn't the best way of doing things that might be one of the reasons why DP's, like Deakins, would rather use another camera which they feel is simpler.

The FLUT™ adjustment tip is a good one, that adjusts the camera in 1/10stop increments right?
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Are you metering incident or spot?
Spot meters are calibrated to anywhere from 10 to 14% (usually 12) depending on the meter. Kodak grey cards used to have instructions to adjust 1/2 stop because of this.

We are calibrated to an incident meter instead.
 
Jason Beckwith said:
I also believe there will be a place for both cameras.

Having said that, it's interesting to note Arri's production schedule. I was at their booth, listening to a gentleman making a purchase. The sales rep stated that he would be camera #623. The gentleman asked how many they'd be making this year, and the sales rep answered four hundred.

That seemed like a pretty low number to me. As a late adoptee of the Red One, I can only hope that Red production is faster, as there are potentially well over five thousand Stage 2 Epic-X cameras to deliver before mine!
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I talked to a rental house that dropped their order numbers so maybe there are gaps in the order numbers now.

Delivery dates for Alexa didn't make sense to them if epic comes out in high quantity before their Alexa shipped. Alexa was too risky of a purchase with their competitors getting more Epics.
 
Jason Beckwith said:
I also believe there will be a place for both cameras.

Having said that, it's interesting to note Arri's production schedule. I was at their booth, listening to a gentleman making a purchase. The sales rep stated that he would be camera #623. The gentleman asked how many they'd be making this year, and the sales rep answered four hundred.

That seemed like a pretty low number to me. As a late adoptee of the Red One, I can only hope that Red production is faster, as there are potentially well over five thousand Stage 2 Epic-X cameras to deliver before mine!
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Jason
This is not true. I am not questioning what you heard or what you are saying, I am disputing that we told people how many cameras we are making or what "#" his camera is. We have yet to decided the allocation and the actual manufacturing output based on our capacity to manufacture test and deliver cameras, after the response at NAB.
 
I saw both presentations: The Alexa and the Epic. I had a hands-on experience with both and got to see footage from both. The Arri Alexa is a great 1080p camera. It will be fantastic for series television for a few years. The Epic has every advantage the Alexa has demonstrated plus the added value of 5K resolution, smaller body size, and a lower price. The only thing the Epic doesn't have is an Arri logo on it-- apart from that, it matches or beats the Alexa point-for-point across a wide spectrum.

IMHO, the low light footage from Alexa wasn't as impressive as the footage from the Red MX shot by OffHollywood in New York. Probably because the Arri footage was lit professionally and the MX used available light-- if you haven't seen it at 4K projected, you haven't seen it. There are going to be many players in this field and the sooner Arri fields a 4K+ option, the better it will be for everyone.

Anyone who says resolution doesn't matter in this equation is terribly mis-informed about digital imaging technology in general and show business in particular. I have not met a 35mm cinematographer yet that did not fantasize about shooting on 70mm film. I haven't met a filmmaker that shoots 16mm that doesn't want to shoot 35mm.

Michael Cioni gave a pretty stark and well-informed presentation that laid it all out in no uncertain terms. You will regret staying 1080 in a 4K world. In fact, it may hit you in your wallet. This change is coming faster than you think.
 
Tom.Wong said:
my opinion is... deakins will probably be shooting film until they don't make a single piece of it anymore, and wouldn't touch digital...
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Well Tom

How you can have an opinion about what Roger is planning on doing is beyond me, unless you have asked him, we have :-)
 
I've never heard/read that incident and spot meters are calibrated to different settings, that kinda defeats the purpose. I would love to hear that from someone else, like say... David Mullen who I'm sure can give us a detailed explanation of what Deanan is talking about. I'm guessing it has something to do with certain skin tones or shooting printed paper.

In any case I meter using incident. You also can't blame my grey cards because I've tested using multiple cards and multiple calibrated meters, all showing the same results repeatedly.
 
Michael Bravin said:
Jason
This is not true. I am not questioning what you heard or what you are saying, I am disputing that we told people how many cameras we are making or what "#" his camera is. We have yet to decided the allocation and the actual manufacturing output based on our capacity to manufacture test and deliver cameras, after the response at NAB.
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Well, you would certainly know better than me. It might not have been his camera #, but it was at least his place in line. And I believe the response was more like "about four hundred" rather than a stead-fast, hard number. I'd hate to give false information, but that's what I heard. I also saw the price list shown, with different options for purchase, including the two lenses plus camera for $130k.

The gentleman looking to purchase was gravitating toward that package. I tried to help out the sales rep by reminding his potential client that he would need two of those for 3d. The gentleman's female companion rather sternly replied that They had no interest in 3d, and that he would only need one!

I found the camera's built quality and image to be excellent, and the menus easy to navigate. While I am stage 2 for Epic, I hope that some client along the way requests that I shoot on an Alexa, as I'd love to spend a couple of days shooting on it as well.

I love 'Celeste', my Red One. I love the concept of Epic, and am sure that I will love it as much, if not more, when mine arrives. Having said that, shooting on other cameras as well helps my skills grow and keeps me well rounded.
 
Jeff Coatney said:
... Probably because the Arri footage was lit professionally and the MX used available light-- ...
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Arri indeed showed available light footage (at the DGA event) and it looked amazing and very natural. They also projected ungraded footage shot during the event in the lobby; there was only very crappy available light around.

So I'm really not sure what you're referring to.
 
Dwight Tudor said:
I've never heard/read that incident and spot meters are calibrated to different settings, that kinda defeats the purpose. I would love to hear that from someone else, like say... David Mullen who I'm sure can give us a detailed explanation of what Deanan is talking about. I'm guessing it has something to do with certain skin tones or shooting printed paper.

In any case I meter using incident. You also can't blame my grey cards because I've tested using multiple cards and multiple calibrated meters, all showing the same results repeatedly.
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It has to do with average scene reflectance being calculated at 12-14%. A good read:
http://www.bythom.com/graycards.htm

The mx red one I rent seems to match my Sekonic for incident. The spot meter is about 1/2 stop off.
 
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