Arri Alexa and Mysterium-X...

[Graeme Nattress]

Internally in the rendering software, the pixels are computed at about 11 or more times higher resolution than 2k anyway and downsampled before output to anti-alias the image.

Also, it remains to see how good the Arri 2880 to 1920 downsample is. Have they improved it over the D21?

Graeme

 

[M Most]

How many big budget movies are actually shot and posted in 4K?

Close to 90% of big budget movies are (still) shot on film, so it can reasonably be argued that the answer to the "shot in 4K" question is "almost all of them". Most of them are posted via a DI path that involves a 4K or 6K scan that is then scaled to 2K for finishing. So the answer to that question is a bit murky.

 

[Graeme Nattress]

And that just gets back to my comment that acquisition resolution for quality work has always been higher than the distribution resolution, and in many cases, significantly so. And for good reason.

Graeme

 

[Deanan]

Close to 90% of big budget movies are (still) shot on film, so it can reasonably be argued that the answer to the "shot in 4K" question is "almost all of them". Most of them are posted via a DI path that involves a 4K or 6K scan that is then scaled to 2K for finishing. So the answer to that question is a bit murky.

what would you say the percentage is for features:
acquisition > post/delivery
vs
acquisition = post/delivery

 

[Rainer Fritz]

We want to go at our upcoming production starting next week pixel per pixel on the ARRI laser at the end... using 4.5kWS mode on MX cameras... CC native RAW in baselight 8 and then exporting 4k DPX for the laser. Would be interesting to do a side by side test with a 2k export but the laser upscales it then from 2k to 4k internaly anyway. I think there will be a visible difference. First to be able grading native raw and then going pixel per pixel on the finish. That makes really much sense for me.
We want to try also the custom PDlog Gammut and using it with a LUT and trying to go a logarithmic grading/finishing route as well. We tested this in the grading suite and saw that this would be also easy possible now.
When I look to a digital projection I think we should add some grain or similar effect to get a more organic surface on the 2k projection. What would you suggest Greame / Deanan??? So doing a little bit tuning for the DCP....

These days I believe in RED more then ever... just to say that...

you guys are incredible...
best,

rainer

 

[Sanjin Jukic]

ARRI is trying to cash on the old 2K/HD standard and technology

but we still have to see how the things would go with ALEXA.

Also times are changing very fast:


"David Fincher’s The Social Network Will Be The First Feature Film Shot and Projected in 4K?

Film reader Jimmy W attended the RED Camera convention in Vegas this week, and got a chance to check out
all the new awesome cameras they are working on. But the most interesting bit of information he learned had
to do with David Fincher’s upcoming adaptation of The Social Network.
While there, they screened some never before seen footage of Fincher’s The Social Network and Soderberg’s Knockout
(which all looked spectacular). Recently AMC, Regal and a few other theatres purchased something like 12,000 digital 4K
projectors which will be in theatres this year. After showing the footage, RED announced that The Social Network will be
the first feature film to be shot in 4K resolution and PROJECTED in 4K resolution. I thought you might dig this since it’s some
cool tech stuff as well as film news. By the way, we saw some 4K projection there…it’s pretty phenomenal.
Can’t wait for the theatres to have this.
For those of you who don’t know, there are basically two different types of digital projection in theaters: 2K and 4K.
The numbers are in reference of the resolution. 2K’s resolution is 2048×1080, while 4K is 4096×2160.
So 4K is almost four times the resolution of 720p High Definition (which is 1280×720 pixels)."

LINK>>>

 

[Graeme Nattress]

What would you suggest Greame / Deanan??? So doing a little bit tuning for the DCP....

These days I believe in RED more then ever... just to say that...

you guys are incredible...
best,

rainer

I don't have any issues adding a bit of grain to the image for "feel" or "look". I've certainly done it here in my own experiments and thought it could look fantastic when done with some care.

Graeme

 

[Rainer Fritz]

Thx Greame for fast reply...
Any other hints for more organic look on the DCP additionaly to Grain?
So you now this hints that only Greame can know...

 

[Matt Fleming]

Going up to 4K means that rendering will take 4x longer, so you will need 4x as many machines in your render farm, and it would make final comps painful, even on your Inferno type machines.

True that but but I think most GFX people would happily rather deal with those issues in trade for having higher resolution source material for more accurate/higher quality tracking, rotoing, compositing, etc...

 

[Albert Armes]

Actually its a 3 letter acronym and it refers to multiple exposures being merged into a single photograph.

This is not how ARRI DGA (Dual Gain Architecture) works at all.
The ALEV III sensor design provides 32 pairs of outputs. Each channel is divided into a high gain path (H)
and a low gain path (L), resulting in 64 channels arriving at the 14 bit A/D converters. In the final images
the lowlights are reconstructed from the high gain path and the highlights are reconstructed from the low
gain path for an image containing meaningful information in all 16 bits.

But...if you wish to call it HDR I'll try to keep silent from now on :closedeyes:

And this is why I read reduser! To get such interesting comments from the guys at red and the guys at arri in the same thread.

How is the data from the H path and the L path blended? Is it done in the digital domain after A/D? How much more gain is there on the H path compared to the L path? From what you're saying, I'm figuring it's a 2 stop gain difference or x4 in straight numbers?

Albert

 

[M Most]

what would you say the percentage is for features:
acquisition > post/delivery
vs
acquisition = post/delivery

Close to 90% if we're talking about studio and major independent features (by definition, they're largely shot on film and put through a 2K DI process). Considerably less if we're talking about micro budgeted "indie" pictures. For television the percentage is much lower because nearly all television dramas that are not on film are shot on HD cameras of one type or another - XDCam and P2 type cameras at the low end, Genesis/F35/D21 at the high end. And the vast majority of those are recorded on SR tape.

 

[Hans von Sonntag]

Close to 90% of big budget movies are (still) shot on film, so it can reasonably be argued that the answer to the "shot in 4K" question is "almost all of them". Most of them are posted via a DI path that involves a 4K or 6K scan that is then scaled to 2K for finishing. So the answer to that question is a bit murky.

You are right of course. My question was rhetorical.

An the argument whether film is 4K or a bit less or even more or what ever is pure academical. It all boils down to the fact that even you shot the film in a higher resolution than 2K/1080p you would post the project finally in 2K/1080p and would never redo all the comps for a later release in 4K.

Probably.

Hans

 

[Graeme Nattress]

Thx Greame for fast reply...
Any other hints for more organic look on the DCP additionaly to Grain?
So you now this hints that only Greame can know...

No hints other than to experiment. I think it's very footage dependent, but also display dependent, so try to view your experiments on the type of display you're intending it to be viewed on.

Graeme

 

[Colin Hubick]

True that but but I think most GFX people would happily rather deal with those issues in trade for having higher resolution source material for more accurate/higher qaulity tracking, rotoing, compositing, etc...

Coming from a vfx point of view I couldn't agree more. If vfx elements are shot on film, there are inherent attributes with film that need to be addressed. Even when a steady gate transfer is done with 35mm, I still find the need to stabilize plates prior to working with it. I prefer getting as clean and stable of an image to work with initially and go from there...

best
Colin

 

[Rainer Fritz]

thx greame... we will play and see what we get... the 2k christie should be ok for that...

 

[geoffboyle]

Grumpy old men

Grumpy old men

Guys,

Over 200 grumpy old men, CML members, had a chance to see all the new toys together in a bar.

The conclusion?

We're bloody lucky, Epic, Alexa & Penelope all have factors in their favour and factors against them.

Hey! pay your money and take your choice.

It's a great time to be working in the camera department!!

 

[Graeme Nattress]

That is very true, Geoff. It's nice to have great cameras suiting the various needs of different types of users, rather than a bunch of copycat clones giving nobody any choice at all. That has got to be good not just for the cinematographer, but the industry as a whole.

Graeme

 

[David (dudi) Namir]

Guys,

Over 200 grumpy old men, CML members, had a chance to see all the new toys together in a bar.

The conclusion?

We're bloody lucky, Epic, Alexa & Penelope all have factors in their favour and factors against them.

Hey! pay your money and take your choice.

It's a great time to be working in the camera department!!

Yes Geoff, you have just wrote what Red wants to hear so much: an acknowledgment that they are in the same line with the big old guys, Arri and Aaton.
They maybe, on my laptop they all look the same.

 

[Tim Morten]

I'm glad to see that there's a lively debate, but I'm honestly a bit astonished at the logic...

How does 2K at 3x the cost make any sense?

Attempt number one to justify: Avatar did it.
Attempt number two to justify: 4k workflow is expensive.
Attempt number three to justify: Arri is a great company.

"Avatar did it" - Heck, Hurt Locker was a great film and it was S16. I'm not going to argue you can't make successful film on a lower quality format. I'm only asking: why would you, when you can shoot a higher quality format for less?

"4k workflow is expensive" - Seriously? There are now off-the-shelf 4k work-flows that enable off-line and on-line from Avid, Adobe, and others that cost less than a new follow-focus or matte box from Arri. If you're paying high fees, I question whether you actually need to be.

"Arri is a great company" - We all agree. If you want to pay for reputation over the actual qualitative resolution advantage that Red has, that is obviously your prerogative. Red may not have a 120 year history, but in my experience they are a fantastic company. In the case of resolution, they have a specific advantage right now.

Can you deliver lower resolution content than Red and still make money? Sure. Is there any reason that you should? Not that I can see.

- Tim

 

[Jannard]

The discussion isn't "what is"... it is "what will be".

Jim