Arguments for Dragon over Arri Mini?

[Stacey Spears]

For some reason they think the picture out of the Mini is more pleasing

I would suggest they rent both cameras and do a test shoot. They need to understand what the camera(s) are capable of as well as the workflows for each.

If they want an Alexa Mini, then they should probably get one. If you end up talking them into a Red and they have any issues, they will most likely blame you. Not worth the trouble.

 

[M.Halsell]

Arri:
- Simple workflow
- Good highlight roll-off especially when over exposed
- Natural skintone modeling
- Fans are really, really quiet even in hot environments

 

[Kemalettin Sert]

In 4:3 mode, isn't the Alexa Mini sensor taller than the Dragon, making it ideal for anamorphics? I've been searching online for 20 minutes for the exact sensor dimensions of the Alexa Mini and can't seem to find it.

yes its taller than Dragon sensor.

 

[Marc Wielage]

I would suggest they rent both cameras and do a test shoot. They need to understand what the camera(s) are capable of as well as the workflows for each. If they want an Alexa Mini, then they should probably get one. If you end up talking them into a Red and they have any issues, they will most likely blame you. Not worth the trouble.

Stacy beat me to it.

I would also recommend renting the cameras for the projects as they come up and not buying anything at all, because camera technology is changing very quickly. If you have to spend money now, buy good lenses and lighting gear, because those will (generally) always be usable.

 

[M.Halsell]

Resolution and technical ability have never been in question with RED. But out of the gate, the cameras were torqued differently. In the key transition period of film to digital, ARRI made it their business to keep the workflow simple and results familiar. Humans have a very short list of memory colors. Skintones is one of those.

Out of the professional cameras, ARRI skintones required the least amount of blacksmith work to achieve critical approval from the DP/Producer/Client collective. ARRI subsequently gained/maintained critical real estate and built perceptual trust with their product positioning. And there are other market segments that each manufacturer has been able to exploit and build strong brand value.

The thread has put forward solid considerations. At the personal level, if you've been asked to provide due diligence, the rest falls on the moneybags to make the choice they deem appropriate. Buy brand A and rent brand B as needed or vice-versa. It's really what provides the best revenue model and coverage for the company. A good looking image is important, but at the end of the day, it's about making a profit-consistently.

 

[Eric M Hurt]

This is a great way to put it. Many high end clients like to hear that it's being shot on an Arri.

Resolution and technical ability have never been in question with RED. But out of the gate, the cameras were torqued differently. In the key transition period of film to digital, ARRI made it their business to keep the workflow simple and results familiar. Humans have a very short list of memory colors. Skintones is one of those.

Out of the professional cameras, ARRI skintones required the least amount of blacksmith work to achieve critical approval from the DP/Producer/Client collective. ARRI subsequently gained/maintained critical real estate and built perceptual trust with their product positioning. And there are other market segments that each manufacturer has been able to exploit and build strong brand value.

The thread has put forward solid considerations. At the personal level, if you've been asked to provide due diligence, the rest falls on the moneybags to make the choice they deem appropriate. Buy brand A and rent brand B as needed or vice-versa. It's really what provides the best revenue model and coverage for the company. A good looking image is important, but at the end of the day, it's about making a profit-consistently.

 

[Julio Quintana]

yes its taller than Dragon sensor.

Does anyone know the exact size of the Alexa Mini sensor? Not to derail this thread but I'm about to do an anamorphic shoot with my Dragon that started shooting on the Mini.

 

[Nick Morrison]

Why does the Weapon have a green cast to the footage?

Depends on the OLPF.

 

[Martin Ubilluz]

Yes the alexa is is 18.13. which is taller. alexa -28.17 x 18.13- -dragon is 30.1 x 15.8- Alexa mini or 4:3 sensor cameras with that sensor size are the only true ways to shoot anamorphic when you shoot with cameras like dragon you will be cropping the lens loosing some of the field of view and depth of field.

 

[Martin Ubilluz]

Does anyone know the exact size of the Alexa Mini sensor? Not to derail this thread but I'm about to do an anamorphic shoot with my Dragon that started shooting on the Mini.

Yes the alexa is is 18.13. which is taller. alexa -28.17 x 18.13- -dragon is 30.1 x 15.8- Alexa mini or 4:3 sensor cameras with that sensor size are the only true ways to shoot anamorphic when you shoot with cameras like dragon you will be cropping the lens loosing some of the field of view and depth of field.

 

[Karim D. Ghantous]

Arri is the only company that has developed an special upscaling algorithm that make the content especially good for 4k.
As Roger Deakins says :"2K Alexa Footage Up-Resed to IMAX Looks 'Superb'"
Pat

I remember an interview - I can't find it now - where he regretted that the Alexa wasn't quite as sharp as he'd like on IMAX. A good 2K camera looks great on a normal movie screen but it should start to soften when enlarged to IMAX size. Maybe I'm just not remembering correctly?

 

[Julio Quintana]

Yes the alexa is is 18.13. which is taller. alexa -28.17 x 18.13- -dragon is 30.1 x 15.8- Alexa mini or 4:3 sensor cameras with that sensor size are the only true ways to shoot anamorphic when you shoot with cameras like dragon you will be cropping the lens loosing some of the field of view and depth of field.

Thanks so much, Martin.

 

[steve green]

Depends on the OLPF.

Understood, but both the Epic D and the Weapon D were shot with the same STD OLPF. I don't understand why the W has that green cast.

 

[Stacey Spears]

Arri is the only company that has developed an special upscaling algorithm that make the content especially good for 4k.

There is nothing special about their scaling algorithm. That is purely a marketing claim. That is not a dig on their scaling, just their claim. There is better offline scaling.

 

[Patrick Tresch]

Understood, but both the Epic D and the Weapon D were shot with the same STD OLPF. I don't understand why the W has that green cast.

I also agree. The green tint is really strange. Have anyone seen there is such a big difference between Dragon Epic and Dragon Weapon? As the tester didn't specify (and if he really knows what he does) I take it for granted that he has compared what is comparable : both Dragons with the same OLPF.

There is nothing special about their scaling algorithm. That is purely a marketing claim. That is not a dig on their scaling, just their claim. There is better offline scaling.[/COLOR]

I was just kidding about Arri special upscaling algorithm. Like they claim their pixels have a better skintone or better roll off than Dragon, lol, marketing BS. If you expose your Weapon correctly at 2000 iso you'll have better results than Alexa.


Regarding Anamorphic on the Dragon, I'm looking forward to the development of x1.3. Estetically I prefer the x1.3 VS the x2.

Pat

 

[Christoffer Glans]

As Roger Deakins says :"2K Alexa Footage Up-Resed to IMAX Looks 'Superb'"

I respect Deakins as a cinematographer, but he's just too Arri-baised, he even rolls his eyes while Cronenweth is talking about 6K in Gone Girl. That lack of respect for others creative process just made me not listening to him when it comes to the technical aspects of cameras. He is a great cinematographer, but his quotes on digital cinema are very subjective.

Resolution and technical ability have never been in question with RED. But out of the gate, the cameras were torqued differently. In the key transition period of film to digital, ARRI made it their business to keep the workflow simple and results familiar. Humans have a very short list of memory colors. Skintones is one of those.

Out of the professional cameras, ARRI skintones required the least amount of blacksmith work to achieve critical approval from the DP/Producer/Client collective. ARRI subsequently gained/maintained critical real estate and built perceptual trust with their product positioning. And there are other market segments that each manufacturer has been able to exploit and build strong brand value.

The thread has put forward solid considerations. At the personal level, if you've been asked to provide due diligence, the rest falls on the moneybags to make the choice they deem appropriate. Buy brand A and rent brand B as needed or vice-versa. It's really what provides the best revenue model and coverage for the company. A good looking image is important, but at the end of the day, it's about making a profit-consistently.

I don't think that is true anymore. It's true that this is how it's been when Arri came out with the Alexa and we had the Red One and Red One MX. That sensor demanded more work, but the Dragon sensor which has been out since 2012/2013 is pretty easy to get good skin tones with. I have no problem using a non-complex curve to get a pleasing look that is just as pleasing as footage shot on the Alexa.

But I agree very very very much on the point of having something that creates the best revenue for the company. In my opinion the Weapon gives most options to give clients. The Alexa is really good, but the Weapon delivers probably anything the clients would want. Want 6K , yes, want easy RAW, yes, want special underwater OLPF color handling, yes, want a small camera body, yes, want an easily remote controlled camera, yes, want a fast editorial workflow, yes and so on. There's too many production points that Weapon hits the mark on which I don't feel that the Mini does. The only thing I feel the Mini really has going for it is the internal NDs, those saves lives

Why does the Weapon have a green cast to the footage?

If you look at the images through a pure color perspective, the Mini has the most green it. As for the differences, the mini doesn't have the contrast because the Red footage seems to already have the quite contrasty Redgamma4 on it. If I were to compare I would suggest putting a curve that equals the same contrast levels between the two cameras. Especially since the Red has RAW and the Mini probably baked in that gamma in the ProRes.

 

[Martin Ubilluz]

If you look at the images through a pure color perspective, the Mini has the most green it. As for the differences, the mini doesn't have the contrast because the Red footage seems to already have the quite contrasty Redgamma4 on it. If I were to compare I would suggest putting a curve that equals the same contrast levels between the two cameras. Especially since the Red has RAW and the Mini probably baked in that gamma in the ProRes.[/QUOTE]

the alexa has a pretty strong rec 709 curve already I think the difference is the ISO. both cameras are not the same . IF you shoot one image with dragon at 800 iso and one image with alexa at 800 ISO the alexa will always be brighter I've done that test plenty of times. I think thats what we are seeing in the images. The green cast can be taken away with a white balance. Like the ISO i think different manufactures cameras color temps are not synced up. the tint or kevin on dragon could be different then the one on Alexa . thats just a guess.

 

[Adrian Jebef]

Don't forget that the Mini can shoot raw to CFast cards which are incredibly less expensive than redmags.

The fact that you get a true 4:3 sensor, raw, and internal NDs is really the deal maker for me.

Oh, and the Mini will probably be worth twice as much 24 months from now.

 

[Troy Smith]

Arri and Red do have there own inherent characteristics, looking at many movies you can clearly see this, red seems to hold up best with scifi type movies, where as arri seems to shine with movies like man from uncle and obviously game of thrones as mentioned here (although as stated on page one there isn't full episodes shot on the red, red was used for safety reasons for some scenes). Skyfall, Mr turner, Fantastic beasts, Mad max, Zero dark thirty, z for zachariah (this had amazing look) many other great examples of arri shining. Maybe once more and more main stream movie productions start using red we'll start seeing some really good examples of red.

It's not simply that both cameras look the same and it's all how it's lit etc. Doing tests and looking at many different movies shot on each camera is what we did when choosing.

Arri to me has the look and feel of traditional cinema, classic cinema. I personally haven’t seen this with Red yet. Maybe Red weapon have cracked the code? 2016 should be a good year to
see.

Also as far as I know netflix will accept 4k mastered movies shot on arri. They simply will not allow there in house productions like house of cards to shoot on anything that is not 4k or above.

Test test test, watch watch watch, then decide.

Troy Smith

 

[shashbugu]

Arri and Red do have there own inherent characteristics, looking at many movies you can clearly see this, red seems to hold up best with scifi type movies, where as arri seems to shine with movies like man from uncle and obviously game of thrones as mentioned here (although as stated on page one there isn't full episodes shot on the red, red was used for safety reasons for some scenes). Skyfall, Mr turner, Fantastic beasts, Mad max, Zero dark thirty, z for zachariah (this had amazing look) many other great examples of arri shining. Maybe once more and more main stream movie productions start using red we'll start seeing some really good examples of red.

It's not simply that both cameras look the same and it's all how it's lit etc. Doing tests and looking at many different movies shot on each camera is what we did when choosing.

Arri to me has the look and feel of traditional cinema, classic cinema. I personally haven’t seen this with Red yet. Maybe Red weapon have cracked the code? 2016 should be a good year to
see.

Also as far as I know netflix will accept 4k mastered movies shot on arri. They simply will not allow there in house productions like house of cards to shoot on anything that is not 4k or above.

Test test test, watch watch watch, then decide.

Troy Smith

Independent Original licensed Netflix content has to be 4K deliverable= Arri is Allowed. Netflix originated content is usually shot for 4k, Sony, Blackmagic, Pana and Red allowed.