Are there any validations to these claims made by Blackmagic Design?

[jake blackstone]

AMD earned their money and current stockprice with PC and Server CPU's, not with selling GPU's to Apple.
NVidia makes it earnings with the GPU's in the gaming, server and AI business.

When you want to earn some money on Apple be a monopolist like Qualcomm, no other company gets a descent price for their products/services while selling to Apple or using Apple standards.
Apple is in the game for earning all the money.

And once more, what is your point?
I mentioned nVidia as an example of a huge company Apple refuses to do business with. The same goes for BMD, except BMD is tiny in comparison.
Got it?

 

[Misha Engel]

And once more, what is your point?
I mentioned nVidia as an example of a huge company Apple refuses to do business with. The same goes for BMD, except BMD is tiny in comparison.
Got it?

It didn't hurt NVidia one bit that they don't do business with Apple, it made them creative and now they are the biggest in AI and parallel computing in the world.
BMD is tiny(selling more RAW capable camera's than any other manufacturer) but a growing privatly owned company doing pretty good (atleast from a consumer standpoint).

When you want to make use of ProResRAW you need an external recorder like you did in the 1980's, while with most other camera's you can do it in/on camera.
Curently their are no benefits in using ProResRAW compared to other RAW(like) formats.

 

[Devindra S.]

i used to use cineform and really liked it, any idea why it's not being developed more? last i heard Gopro had bought it, but then released it as open source or something. I haven't used it in a while cuz my computer will run r3d's without transcoding. but i've thought for a while that cameras could be using it in camera and sorta wondered why more didn't.

 

[Misha Engel]

i used to use cineform and really liked it, any idea why it's not being developed more? last i heard Gopro had bought it, but then released it as open source or something. I haven't used it in a while cuz my computer will run r3d's without transcoding. but i've thought for a while that cameras could be using it in camera and sorta wondered why more didn't.

It's still alive https://github.com/gopro/cineform-sdk and it's gaining momentum under Resolve users.

 

[Marc Wielage]

BMD directly rips FCPX lock stock and barrel as a SECOND editor in Resolve and now they trying to directly compete with with Apple ProresRAW codec. Apple has long memory and can be very vindictive.

I don't think that's exactly true. If you watch the June 3 video presentation on the Mac Pro, Blackmagic is very much a participant in the demo and Apple specifically sites Resolve and the actually show a colorist in the Apple demo room using the Advanced Panels on a Resolve project. They also invited Grant Petty and several other BMD people, and he was there at the intro. I think if Apple was really concerned, they would've shut BMD out completely.

I had hoped that negotiations for Windows ProRes rendering were ongoing, but it's been a long time now and doesn't seem to be ending anytime soon.

 

[jake blackstone]

I don't think that's exactly true. If you watch the June 3 video presentation on the Mac Pro, Blackmagic is very much a participant in the demo and Apple specifically sites Resolve and the actually show a colorist in the Apple demo room using the Advanced Panels on a Resolve project. They also invited Grant Petty and several other BMD people, and he was there at the intro. I think if Apple was really concerned, they would've shut BMD out completely.

I had hoped that negotiations for Windows ProRes rendering were ongoing, but it's been a long time now and doesn't seem to be ending anytime soon.

Business is business. Apple sued Samsung, while purchasing huge amount of products from them and still do after the suit was resolved.
You don't negotiate with Apple about Prores license. Company must submit a business plan as to how APPLE will benefit from licensing Prores to that company. If the argument is weak, NO PRORES FOR YOU! Pretty simple really...

 

[jake blackstone]

It didn't hurt NVidia one bit that they don't do business with Apple, it made them creative and now they are the biggest in AI and parallel computing in the world.
BMD is tiny(selling more RAW capable camera's than any other manufacturer) but a growing privatly owned company doing pretty good (atleast from a consumer standpoint).

When you want to make use of ProResRAW you need an external recorder like you did in the 1980's, while with most other camera's you can do it in/on camera.
Curently their are no benefits in using ProResRAW compared to other RAW(like) formats.

It's not about who got or going to get hurt, it's about Apple having long memory. Once you get on their shit list- nVidia, BMD, it's very difficult to get off it. But, if there is business necessity or if there is money to be made, Apple has no problem doing business even with their biggest competitors and suppliers, like with Samsung.
Business is business...

 

[jake blackstone]

When you want to make use of ProResRAW you need an external recorder like you did in the 1980's, while with most other camera's you can do it in/on camera.
Curently their are no benefits in using ProResRAW compared to other RAW(like) formats.

That is until we see ProresRAW in iPhone.
Apple tried to overturn Red IP the easy way and that didn't fly. So, now Red will directly benefit from Apple licensing Red IP the traditional way. And that in the process will make ProresRAW the most popular RAW codec overnight.

 

[paulcurtis]

What's technically wrong with cDNG, i mean it's a codec holding RAW data - RAW data is the most basic simplest data there is.

In this case IMHO people should have just developed cDNG more. There are compressions that can be applied, there are internal look up tables for mathematical compression of linear data. I just fail to see where cDNG doesn't work, save for the real fact that many app developers would rather force people down their own proprietary roads. That's the issue with it, there's nothing wrong with the codec itself.

Aside from R3D as part of an eco-system i would rather record cDNG as that can then be used and opened in many applications.

It is true that Resolves debayer isn't that good.

But again this is the implementation of the codec, there's nothing intrinsically wrong with the codec itself

cheers
Paul

 

[David Rasberry]

What's technically wrong with cDNG, i mean it's a codec holding RAW data - RAW data is the most basic simplest data there is.

In this case IMHO people should have just developed cDNG more. There are compressions that can be applied, there are internal look up tables for mathematical compression of linear data. I just fail to see where cDNG doesn't work, save for the real fact that many app developers would rather force people down their own proprietary roads. That's the issue with it, there's nothing wrong with the codec itself.

Aside from R3D as part of an eco-system i would rather record cDNG as that can then be used and opened in many applications.

It is true that Resolves debayer isn't that good.

But again this is the implementation of the codec, there's nothing intrinsically wrong with the codec itself

cheers
Paul

The issue with CDNG is the processing power needed for true high quality debayer algorithms. Resolve has improved significantly since V10, but on my i7 quadcore the highest quality export runs about 2.5 fps with a basic grade. That’s for 2k. It will barely play 24fps realtime on the timeline in Resolve and Lightworks, but not fluidly enough for efficient editing. Compression doesn’t make any difference in this. I have tried up to 7:1 compression with Slimraw.
I have used Raw Therapee and Capture One pro on some Bolex footage and really like the higher quality results, but with those it typically runs between 2.5 and 5 seconds PER FRAME. Those I reserve for fine art gallery loops. But they can be useful for problem shots too.
Raw Therapee has some really interesting wavelet processing tools that produce unique looks and textures.

I still prefer working with uncompressed CDNG from the Bolex using color managed CIE XYZ linear to whatever finishing color space in Resolve. I prefer the look of grading from the linear data rather than log conversions. Slimraw Cineon lossless log compression is pretty close to linear, but converting to any of the common video log spaces makes recovering the rich color gamut of the Bolex difficult. The footage can maintain subtle color and texture into very deep shadows that log formats kill.

Red got there first with a practical raw compression scheme, and with IPP2 it is IMO still head and shoulders above any of the newcomers if you have the skills and time to make use of it.
I shudder to think of what shooting 8k in CDNG would require. Bring one of those new 64 core Ryzen machines to its knees.

 

[Björn Benckert]

Calling the mastering format "RAW" is to me the wrong lingo. If the master file had all the settings included to create the clip including the source files from camera then yes, if not no. Sure compressed raw is not really raw etc but to me proresraw and BMRaw is bending it a bit a bit to far.

 

[Sabovic Adis]

Business is business. Apple sued Samsung, while purchasing huge amount of products from them and still do after the suit was resolved.
You don't negotiate with Apple about Prores license. Company must submit a business plan as to how APPLE will benefit from licensing Prores to that company. If the argument is weak, NO PRORES FOR YOU! Pretty simple really...

So, one can't get ProRes without a licence? ProRes doesn't work without it, that what you're saying?

 

[Hrvoje Simic]

What's technically wrong with cDNG, i mean it's a codec holding RAW data - RAW data is the most basic simplest data there is.

Well few hundred thousand files per shooting day can be somewhat of a problem.




Regarding raw talks....perhaps camera makers might benefit the most from their own Raw instead of dependence to a third party and corporative troll, and it might help if someone released some other 12 bit 444 codec.

 

[Misha Engel]

and it might help if someone released some other 12 bit 444 codec.

These are free to use

Cineform:

Pixel formats supported:

8/10/16-bit YUV 4:2:2 compressed as 10-bit, progressive or interlace
8/10/16-bit RGB 4:4:4 compressed at 12-bit progressive
8/16-bit RGBA 4:4:4:4 compressed at 12-bit progressive

This one requires a license
12/16-bit CFA Bayer RAW, log encoded and compressed at 12-bit progressive (~$20/camera)

There is no need for another 12 bit 444(4) codec... so you will probably see more flavours in the future.

 

[Björn Benckert]

So, one can't get ProRes without a licence? ProRes doesn't work without it, that what you're saying?

I think Jake means if you are a software developer, then prores is not for everyone. Example strange enough. Autodesk flame does prores both on Linux and OSX, Autodesk 3dsmax... does not.

We had such thing when doing our little axis app but with Autodesk. We where trying to get a license for the FBX format. First really difficult then after some negotiation and talking to the right people and explaining what we where about... then all of a sudden no fee, free access to the SDK and we where good to go. Licensing is not always about money, benefits can be on both sides, but still they want to have the controls. They could later remove the rights for us if wanted. I guess a bit the same with prores and BM. I guessing BM does not want to stand on Apples carpet if they at any moment can pull it away. So they better do create their own format.

 

[Hrvoje Simic]

These are free to use

Cineform:

Which isn't wavelet.

There is no need for another 12 bit 444(4) codec...

If Cupertinosaurus totalitarism is not a goal, yes there is.


...


Also...TV series production would greatly benefit from hevc intra 12/444. Right now it's stuck between borderline usable and overkill.

 

[M Most]

Which isn't wavelet.

Really? Since when?

 

[David Rasberry]

Cineform is a JPEG2000 derivative optimized for fast decoding, i.e wavelet.

A 2k DCI raw frame from the Bolex is 3.2MB! 4k would be 4x that, 8k 16x or 51.2MBb/frame!

 

[Hrvoje Simic]

Really? Since when?

That was a continuation...

it might help if someone released some other 12 bit 444 codec.

+

Which isn't wavelet.

: )

 

[John Brawley]

ProRes is a defacto standard, ProResRAW isn't and it wouldn't surprise me if BRAW is more widely used than ProResRAW at the moment, .

Well, also on feature set ? Last time I looked in FCP with a ProRes RAW clip you can't pick a white balance Kelvin number...It didn't seem to support embedded LUT's either...How is it as all RAW if you can't do those simple things....

I would love for ProRes RAW to work, I shot a gazillion hours of ProRes but as of right now, despite all the claims of support, I just don't see it in the features in the apps, and there still isn't a camera recording it internally. Only though an external recorder.

I presume Atomos have some kind of exclusivity on that as a launch partner but so far they haven't exactly signed up a bunch of cameras to support it. So far, only one camera can use it as far as I know, the Nikon Z series and seemingly with mixed reviews....

The current Hulu show I'm on right now is Arri RAW and about a third of the show is BRAW and it's been surprisingly simple to get post working on it. DNG would never ever have worked for this post workflow. It just wouldn't have happened, and I wouldn't have been able to make the choice to use the camera package I currently have.

DNG also would have been a nightmare as soon as BMD goes to a 4K+ sensor. DNG barely keep up at 4K on a high end machine now. Plus I can't imagine there's a lot of media for the camera that would support an 8K DNG data rate...

JB