Are my emotions about being a new Red Owner common? Going back and forth.

[adam brennan]

I am still new to Red and bought a new Red Epic w for the first time. I've shot with mostly DSLR which did fine in the past. Yesterday I took the red epic w out and attached a Zeiss Otus 28mm f/1.4 lens to it along with my other Otus 50mm, 85mm too. I am not completely familiar with the Red Epic and want to take a 3 day course on it. I've dumped a lot of money in DSMC2 accessories. Yesterday's shoot was more for testing and fun. One of the things I am learning that I don't like about the Epic w is the crop factor. I didn't think when I first bought the camera that it would be that big of a deal, then the weight got to me trying to hand hold it chasing my subject around. (Otus lenses are heavy to begin with). Then the changing out of gear or lenses was a bit cumbersome, then the 98 w/per hour battery only lasted about an hour and a half, then the boot time time is long. I kept shutting down the camera so I so the battery would last longer but staring back up when I saw something I wanted to capture..well I missed it waiting for the camera to start....and so on. So yesterday a lot of my excitement of the Epic W started to melt away. Again before anyone jumps on me about researching and yada yada..I did as much as I could but I think sometimes you can only do so much before you have to get hands on.

Later that day I head home deflated with the money I spent and my overall experience with it. I saw Canon is coming out with a C200 which looks great for someone like me who is a run and gun type shooter for documentaries and candid action. The focus tracking seems pretty slick on the Canon 200 and obviously the cost is much less than my Red Epic W. I got home and looked at my footage I captured of this lantern fest and I was smiling a little bit more. I looked a the footage of my canon 1dx mark II and it wasn't as nice in low light as the Epic W. So with that all being said, I am up and down with the red camera. I know I am not an expert with everything on this camera yet. So I find myself going back and forth with this camera. Is this normal for most of you newbie red epic owners? I wished I went with a full size sensor now, but it's out of my budget.

 

[Terry VerHaar]

RED is about image quality. If that isn't the key thing for you in your shooting, then you might be happier with something else. I have always loved Canon for still images. And I have a Canon DSLR that I fool around with for some motion stuff. The images are good but not even close to what I get with my Scarlet Dragon and way less malleable in post to get the look I want. In the end, it's a personal choice.

RED lives and dies by the quality of REDraw. There is nothing like it in the industry. And it only gets better as RED works to improve the image pipeline (such as the new IPP2). I suspect, once you learn best how to work with the camera - if you decide to take the time to do so - that you will fall in love with it. Most do but not everyone.

If you want some inspiration, watch this video by Mark Toia:

http://www.red.com/news/why-capture-with-RED-cameras

Good luck.

 

[adam brennan]

Thanks Terry! I need inspiration! Quality is everything to me. But being a one man crew with an assistant I have to have quick and easy.

 

[Mestizo Devon]

You can shoot PRORES and keep your FOV, and when comparing to C200 you should be fine. It will take time, there are many different setups and ways to shoot with RED. I think PRORES for quick run and gun, fast turn around stuff, she is power hungry but less than MX. Keep at it...

 

[Terry VerHaar]

I realize I didn't address any of your specific issues. Many of them - such as battery life and start-up time (although there are power saving features), are just facts. The one I will comment about is crop factor. If you want to retain the best image quality, my advice is not to shoot smaller resolutions unless you need to go to high frame rates. IIRC, s35 sensor size on the Epic-W is around 6.5K so, if I owned an Epic-W, I'd use that as a default and experiment from there.

 

[Nathan DuMoulin]

I kept shutting down the camera so I so the battery would last longer but staring back up when I saw something I wanted to capture..well I missed it waiting for the camera to start....and so on.

Just assign one of the Soft Keys to Power Save Sleep Mode, and will you to significantly increase battery run time.

 

[adam brennan]

Just assign one of the Soft Keys to Power Save Sleep Mode, and will you to significantly increase battery run time.

Good to know! I think I need to go the 3 day class.

 

[adam brennan]

Thanks Terry, I will look into that!

 

[Akin A]

Try 190Wh batteries. It'll be helpful in powering other accessories too.

 

[Fabricio Morato]

Hey Adam,

I understand and share some of your concerns. But some of them are related to a shooting style that's not Reds strength (run and gun). I own an epic-w as well and my next couple of jobs I'll be shooting with something else, since the cons of the red were not worth sticking with it (and I could have chosen my epic to make some extra cash btw). But we need to understand the systems pros and cons and choose the right tools for the job.

The crop factor you are referring to is when you change to slowmo or using 8K you think it's too narrow vs full frame?

I find that up to 5k it's alright..less than that I don't try to shoot with. But less than 4k I don't think it's worth it.

For the batteries that's how much they draw unfortunately. What you could try is using the battery saving modes to see if it helps. But would recommend using 150w batteries since the weight is close to the 95w (from some brands). And you get that extra juice.
For weight you could try using the battery on a clip belt, or getting one of these easyrig or similar to help with the weight ( and you still get the hand held feel).

Also using prerecord might be nice for this syle of shooting that you are saying. I have never use it though , so can't really tell you how good/bad it is.

For focus tracking the only thing that would work nice on red is using a wireless follow focus with some tape mesuring system that would drive the focus (I think on the cheap side red Rockmicro has something).


And the booting time I find it slow also. But most of my jobs with the epic-w I just boot it after battery changes so it doesn't bother me much. Let's just hope that with future updates the boot time gets lower...

Hope this helps.

 

[Curtis boggs]

I come from a stills background and was a hand held, quick working kinda guy.
Take 4 hours to light and set up, 4 seconds to shoot

So the transition to Red system put me through the same thing you are going through.
The system is so modular and there's so many 3rd party accessories that it's a fairly daunting task to find your rig.
But this is also the strong point of the Red system, you can build ANYTHING and have the highest image quality available!

So really don't be disappointed but instead be excited about the possibility. I Learn to enjoy the journey.

It's a big step in imaging, and so much to learn but remember, you have a top level jet fighter in your hands.

Red is a huge family with a huge base of generous people ready to help if they can.
You have more support then any world leader could hope for.

Trust me, you'll learn to love it more then, .. . ( better not say )

Also, don't know where you are located but if you're close to me in Virginia
I would be glad to spend a day or two with you and help however I can.
This goes for anyone too, ..

Curtis

 

[Curtis boggs]

I'm about to shoot a travel piece in the Cayman islands, .. all single bag run & gun style.

Just two lenses, Sigma still zooms, EVF, 2 160WH batteries ( and a few new Red tiny ones )
Side handle, Monopod, , .. shoot it like it's a DSLR. Lav mic for talent into camera.

I'll let you know how it goes.

Just did a commercial shoot like this. used battery belt clip. However it was all shot slow mo at 80fps.

 

[Björn Benckert]

On the last commercial shoot I worked on we had 2 Alexa Studio setups, a mini, my helium and then the web guys had canon c200´s. And we shot a whole bunch of different scenarios everything from studio settings, caves, queries and bright daylight stuff. The canon has some appeal for sure. The small long lasting batteries are one. I did not get to sit and dick around with the images from all cameras on set, I just looked over the DIT and the guys handling the canon footage shoulders.

But from a quick glance they all look quite similar. The alexas do have their filmic look in the monitors but nothing that can not be created / matched in post. They also eat a mad amount of data, when shooting as we did in 33.333fps raw uncompressed. The canons where set to 4k and also created quite a bit of data. on weapon I was altering resolution but shot most 8k then also a lot of high speed stuff with lower resolution and also a lot with high iso.

All in all,

if anyone would offer me to trade for any of the different cameras, with cost difference in between. I would really not want to trade out the helium which I think is the most costly of the bunch.

Sure the spinning mirrors are nice on the Arri studio cams but then also you kind of need a full fisher dolly to move the camera around and to me it feels odd to shot in the low resolution that it actually do.
And the canon´s possibly shoot a great image but it´s not 8k and its definitely not 8k downscaled to 4k and it does not have the framerate capabilities of the reds and they do not deliver r3d´s.

I think jumping from DSLR to canon c200 would feel all natural and great, but to me then I could just use a magic landtern 5D instead. Simply it does not match up to what the weapon / helium cameras can do.

 

[Glen David Miller]

Remember, the only things you need to shoot are - the Brain, a battery module, the monitor, the lens, and a mag. If you shoot with small v-mounts, you will have to change batteries, but, with about 4 or 5 150 to 190's you should be able to keep the camera on all day if that's your goal. The red system is a lot different than anything DSLR but as you're seeing, the results are worth the challenges to old habits. -g

 

[Ben Scott]

A Red is absolutely not a 'camera for all occasions'.

We've all crowbarred one into scenarios where other cameras might be more appropriate to use but it certainly has a goldilocks zone and for me that tends to be controlled environments. I appreciate other people love it for action sports or whatnot but I'm slightly less actiony than an earthworm.

My FS7 earned me many many times more money than my Scarlet-X ever did.
My A7s was far better in low light.
A 5D or C300 is faster to run about with
A varicam will give you clean ISO 5000
An Amira is a powerful documentary shooting tool

I recently sold my FS7 and bought a Red again. A Scarlet-W. The FS7 was getting me loads of work, but the work I will do with the Scarlet-W will be better work and that is more important to me.

In terms of image quality there is no comparison. You just have to not treat the Red like a DSLR and learn how to use it properly. As soon as people learn to expose properly with a Red (and deal with post) everything starts to make a lot more sense.

 

[Gunleik Groven]

It's fun that the RED form-factor has gone from "too small" (from those who wants an Alexa/DXL form-factor) to "too heavy" in a few years, but I guess that speaks to REDs success at attracting new customer groups all the time.

I have done an insane lot of run-and-gun single-shooter shoots with the EpicDragon around the globe, and also worked quite a bit in "full view" setups.

To me it is more amazing how versatile the platform is. But that comes with the price of more power and more heavy than most DSLRs.

 

[adam brennan]

All very good points everyone. I feel like I am bitching but I am not. Maybe just thinking out loud. After looking at my footage I captured of a test shoot, I found myself really liking the low light capability. I was at a Lantern Fest and there were small camp fires that barely lit people's faces, but it looked so natural on the red footage rather than bumping up exposure on a DSLR and then doesn't give you that "feel" of really being there. I think the best way someone put it on here is that it's not a camera for all occasions. I think I was trying to make this a camera for every occasion, Shots on the Red have to be more planned out rather than just running and gunning it is what I am starting to realize. Although it can be a run and gun camera, but runtime, focus and other things don't make it the ideal camera to do that with for me. I called Red hoping there was an upgrade path to the full sensor, but unfortunately there isn't. So I will have to make due with the crop factor of 1.6x I think that is what it is.

 

[Daniel Stilling]

it's not a camera for all occasions.

I beg to differ. You, the camera, a monopod and a backpack can go all around the world running and gunning. And then you can rig it on a Technocrane with a 12x1 and go crazy with that. I do think that you can rig RED's in all ways possible. Put a few batteries in your backpack, along with a couple of lightweight lenses... Put the camera on a dolly with all kinds of wireless video, wireless focus, Cine Tape, the works. Put your camera on a lightweight tripod with the body, a monitor, a lens, couple of filters on your Atom matte box and an audio receiver for your scratch audio track and you are off doing interviews. Take the stuff off and rig it on a gimbal. Not many (if any) cameras out there, with the IQ that RED has can do this...
I have rigged my RED's in so many ways since I started using the DSMC system, and it's gotten so much better with the DSMC2. I haven't used anything else the last 5 years and I have shot from run and gun documentaries to $180 million dollar movies (well, not the whole thing but you get my drift...)

 

[Mandela Gregoire]

Hey Adam,

I also came from the DSLR world, and over the past six months I've experienced some similar frustrations.

I love shooting wildlife and the ability to turn a DSLR on within seconds and capture a once-of-a-lifetime shot is wonderful capability.

Sometimes I do wish my Epic-W was full frame and at 8K there was absolutely no crop factor.

The kind of battery life you get with a RED vs a Canon or Sony DSLR is dramatically different.

But at the end of the day you simply need to remember one thing:

YOU HAVE ONE OF THE BEST CAMERAS IN THE WORLD RIGHT NOW.

You are shooting with practically the same camera that David Fischer, Peter Jackson and Michael Bay are using right now.

That is tremendous power.

It will certainly take some getting used to. It will require more planning. But at the end of the day you have to make small sacrifices for something greater.

Don't doubt your decision. You came to RED for a reason.

For me, going back to a DSLR is unimaginable at this point. Sure I use my Sony A7Rii sometimes when I want something lighter. The image quality is very good. But it can't shoot 48 fps in 6K.

I recently shot an entire video in 2K/240fps. A Canon isn't going to give you that power.

With great power comes great responsibility. Embrace it.

Watch Mark Toia's "Why RED" video on YouTube.

Good luck !

 

[AndreasOberg]

Welcome to the family Adam.

I understand where you are coming from.
It is a different experience shooting with a Red compared to a DSLR. I guess in many ways the jump is as big as it is from say a compact camera to a DSRL.

For me the reason I like Red is just because of image quality and its power. Yes, it takes long to start, yes it can crash, yes you get LOTS of data to backup, yes getting audio working needs a separate recorder, yes it needs a lot of batteries, BUT the image quality and the artistic flexibility makes all the other cameras pale in comparison (except maybe Arri). This makes it all worth it for me.

One the positive side the artistic power of the camera will help you grow as an artist. After all you can still film in 200+fps. Raw will help you a lot. There are lots of features like HDRx that can really help your shots. If you embrace this extra power you can make more beautiful images than you have ever done before. I see many film makers that use Red but do not quite use the camera to its true potential. I love its for its macro slow motion material. We just filmed an old piano with macro and you could see old spider webs moving on the keys, perfect for a steam punk music video!

When it comes to the practical side, there are many solutions that can help.
- For example I use the Pag 150e batteries, they are 770g but last much longer. I will bring 4 with me to every place so I dont have to shut them down. I filmed a music video for 8 hours and 2.5 batteries lasted the whole day. I even have 4 more batteries now that I will bring on longer shots.
- Get a good backpack. I can carry the whole camera, rails, wireless motors, an extar 702 focus screen, Canon 600F4, 4 pag batteries for hours. I use a mountaineer backpack to help with the load. This has been a huge improvement for me.
- pre recording is incredible.
- Start up time. After a while you learn to plan ahead. When I lifte the camera out of the backpack I turn it on before even putting the tripod on.
- Trim the files so you delete sections that are not needed. This will save you lots of space.

I think when you used the camera for a while and learned its pipeline you will understand more its benefits and only then will you know if its a stepup for you or not.

Hope that helps a bit!
/Andreas