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  • Hey all, just changed over the backend after 15 years I figured time to give it a bit of an update, its probably gonna be a bit weird for most of you and i am sure there is a few bugs to work out but it should kinda work the same as before... hopefully :)

Apple + RED

How relevant is a RAW compression ratio of more than 6 times these days, considering current flash prices and the need for high quality and flexibility in post?

More than 80% of the blockbusters is still shot in uncompressed ARRIRAW (so it seems they don't give a sh*t about compressed RAW).
Sony has a patent aggrement with RED so they can do whatever they want.
Canon has rawlite which has a lower compression ratio than the 6 times mentioned in the RED patent.
Blackmagic has BRAW which doesn't infringe the RED patent but gives the same flexibility as RAW.
Many who shoot RED and need the best possible quality use the lowest possible compression ratio (we do with 7k 4:1 24..25fps).

The emerging markets (China, India, etc..) don't give a sh*t about US-only patents and they kind of don't like Apple(to put it mildly).
Fast flashstorage sell's for less than $200/TB with a read/write speed exceeding 3 GB/s.

Apple is kind of late to the compressed RAW party, so I think it will be hard for them to be as relavent with ProResRAW as they where with ProRes.
 
Misha Engel said:
How relevant is a RAW compression ratio of more than 6 times these days, considering current flash prices and the need for high quality and flexibility in post?
Click to expand...

Extremely relevant apparently. But feel free to do the standard counterpointing and surprised you're going this route with the argument as you've championed the smaller data rates of BRAW.

We'll never know everybody who's working with RED regarding the patent and licensing, but the only thing that's clear now more than ever is that is the way to proceed. It's nice to see Canon coming to the party again (I personally think the C500 MK II is the most important motion picture camera they've made to date post 5D MK II-era and after the C series matured) and it will be nice to see where ProRes RAW ends up because I think it will gain a lot of traction once whatever agreements are made.

BRAW, heh, well. Who knows what lurks down under. But it is nice they created that codec. Sort of not shocking it was copied immediately unfortunately. Also really bringing up some standardization regarding what exactly RAW means, but that will get sorted. It already is really. Looking forward to the new stuff at NAB from BMD either way.

The bulk of the production world as well as major manufacturers do care about patents as it relates to the marketplace itself. It's been interesting seeing some anti-patent and anti-IP discussion surrounding this topic during it's course. Especially from filmmakers who really should care about IP in particular, but then again, not everybody is in this industry producing content like that for sure.

But yes, if you have the most valuable company on Earth chasing you down over tech they want to utilize, I'd say it's pretty relevant on business levels as well as general intereest for filmmakers.
 
Misha Engel said:
How relevant is a RAW compression ratio of more than 6 times these days, considering current flash prices and the need for high quality and flexibility in post?
Click to expand...

Have you ever shot documentaries? It's very relevant.
Given how fast things can move in doc production RAW definitely helps.

For many low to mid budget productions (narrative, doc, music video or otherwise) where storage $$$ is an issue once you consider backups , the higher RAW compression ratios are what make RAW a viable option.

Brian Timmons
BRITIM/MEDIA
 
Phil Holland said:
Extremely relevant apparently. But feel free to do the standard counterpointing and surprised you're going this route with the argument as you've championed the smaller data rates of BRAW.
Click to expand...

We still have one UMP running at cDNG and with $200/TB SSD pricing this have never been an issue for our workflow. The nice thing for us concerning BRAW is the low compute power needed.

Phil Holland said:
We'll never know everybody who's working with RED regarding the patent and licensing, but the only thing that's clear now more than ever is that is the way to proceed. It's nice to see Canon coming to the party again (I personally think the C500 MK II is the most important motion picture camera they've made to date post 5D MK II-era and after the C series matured) and it will be nice to see where ProRes RAW ends up because I think it will gain a lot of traction once whatever agreements are made.

BRAW, heh, well. Who knows what lurks down under. But it is nice they created that codec. Sort of not shocking it was copied immediately unfortunately. Also really bringing up some standardization regarding what exactly RAW means, but that will get sorted. It already is really. Looking forward to the new stuff at NAB from BMD either way.

The bulk of the production world as well as major manufacturers do care about patents as it relates to the marketplace itself. It's been interesting seeing some anti-patent and anti-IP discussion surrounding this topic during it's course. Especially from filmmakers who really should care about IP in particular, but then again, not everybody is in this industry producing content like that for sure.

But yes, if you have the most valuable company on Earth chasing you down over tech they want to utilize, I'd say it's pretty relevant on business levels as well as general intereest for filmmakers.
Click to expand...

I didn't know Saudi Aramco was also chasing RED over tech.
 
So what is this circus about ?

Cupertinosaurus appetite includes compressed raw video without the need to pay licensing to Red ?
 
Hrvoje Simic said:
So what is this circus about ?

Cupertinosaurus appetite includes compressed raw video without the need to pay licensing to Red ?
Click to expand...

Isn’t it the opposite- that Apple will pay Red royalties?
 
Misha Engel said:
How relevant is a RAW compression ratio of more than 6 times these days, considering current flash prices and the need for high quality and flexibility in post?
.
Click to expand...

That argument / statement has been around since storage began :) . I remember the 512mb hard drive, and saying wow who would ever need that much storage? and same when 1gb happened .

When we got mini dv tapes that recorded 13gb It seemed like we would never need more. That was so much data!!!! But that was SD.. and then the world went 720. 1080. 2k. and then 4k. and now 8k. When REDCODE came out people were telling us it was a mistake and everything needed to be completely uncompressed... at the same time people said the world would never need 4k. Just like right now people saying that the world never will need 8k.

It's tit for tat.. and it's always been like that. As storage grows, so does data. More megapixels. More framerates. Give people the space.. and they will always find a way to fill it. I know we will :)
 
Put your hands in the air, this is a hijack.

Jarred, do you have any news on the cuda full acceleration support outside of redcinex pro? It was a year since it was first showcased/teased.
And sdk have been out since april.
 
Jarred Land said:
That argument / statement has been around since storage began :) . I remember the 512mb hard drive, and saying wow who would ever need that much storage? and same when 1gb happened .

When we got mini dv tapes that recorded 13gb It seemed like we would never need more. That was so much data!!!! But that was SD.. and then the world went 720. 1080. 2k. and then 4k. and now 8k. When REDCODE came out people were telling us it was a mistake and everything needed to be completely uncompressed... at the same time people said the world would never need 4k. Just like right now people saying that the world never will need 8k.

It's tit for tat.. and it's always been like that. As storage grows, so does data. More megapixels. More framerates. Give people the space.. and they will always find a way to fill it. I know we will :)
Click to expand...

So does the camera company mostly used for Blockbusters who is still using uncompressed RAW, even for 6.5k (for quality reasons they claim).
Meanwhile 15.36 TB, 3 GB/s r/w flash storage is sold for ~$3,000 where others sold 0.96 TB, 0.3 GB/s for the about same amount less than half a year ago.
It's still nice to have a high compression ratio when picture quality is of less importance, but the relelvance is declining.
 
Misha Engel said:
How relevant is a RAW compression ratio of more than 6 times these days, considering current flash prices and the need for high quality and flexibility in post?

More than 80% of the blockbusters is still shot in uncompressed ARRIRAW (so it seems they don't give a sh*t about compressed RAW).
Sony has a patent aggrement with RED so they can do whatever they want.
Canon has rawlite which has a lower compression ratio than the 6 times mentioned in the RED patent.
Blackmagic has BRAW which doesn't infringe the RED patent but gives the same flexibility as RAW.
Many who shoot RED and need the best possible quality use the lowest possible compression ratio (we do with 7k 4:1 24..25fps).

The emerging markets (China, India, etc..) don't give a sh*t about US-only patents and they kind of don't like Apple(to put it mildly).
Fast flashstorage sell's for less than $200/TB with a read/write speed exceeding 3 GB/s.

Apple is kind of late to the compressed RAW party, so I think it will be hard for them to be as relavent with ProResRAW as they where with ProRes.
Click to expand...

I don't think you have receipts for any of the "information" you are providing here..
 
Jarred Land said:
We are pleased to see our REDCODE patents withstand another challenge.

To be clear, as I mentioned before, this never really was Apple vs. RED. It has always been APPLE + RED, and this was all part of the process defining how we work together in the future.

RED integration with Apple’s METAL framework for realtime R3D playback is coming along well and the work that the two teams are doing together is exceeding expectations. We are very excited for the new Mac Pro and the new XDR pro display and the power they bring to the entire RED workflow.
Click to expand...

good news especially metal framework support
 
Misha Engel said:
We still have one UMP running at cDNG and with $200/TB SSD pricing this have never been an issue for our workflow. The nice thing for us concerning BRAW is the low compute power needed.



I didn't know Saudi Aramco was also chasing RED over tech.
Click to expand...

lol. if you want your pension in oil under a dubious regime feel free ;) but core fact is its not publicly traded company, yet. some problems over there... can't imagine :)
 
Jarred Land said:
RED integration with Apple’s METAL framework for realtime R3D playback is coming along well and the work that the two teams are doing together is exceeding expectations. We are very excited for the new Mac Pro and the new XDR pro display and the power they bring to the entire RED workflow.
Click to expand...

Will all Metal based Macs benefit from R3D acceleration or is it just with the Afterburner card?
 
PatrickFaith said:
I shoot with a Iphone 11 max pro, monstro & gemini - would be so nice if I could record the iphone with prores raw and that could be matched seemlessly to a red raw workflow (perhaps even with a "downconverted" red/raw prores).
Click to expand...

Cool idea in theory but the iPhone 11 Pro (and Max) only use Lightning with USB2 speeds so if you shot 4K ProRes Raw on a 512gb model you'd get around 50-ish mins of footage and then have painfully slow offloading. With USB 2.0 being 60 MBps that would take around 2 and half hours.

Apple need to make that 'pro' device pro and give it a nice connector (I also own an iPhone 11 Pro).
 
Joel Arvidsson said:
Put your hands in the air, this is a hijack.

Jarred, do you have any news on the cuda full acceleration support outside of redcinex pro? It was a year since it was first showcased/teased.
And sdk have been out since april.
Click to expand...

Mistika and Scratch have it. I think Lightworks does as well. It's been a bit slow getting adopted.
 
Jonathan Petts said:
Cool idea in theory but the iPhone 11 Pro (and Max) only use Lightning with USB2 speeds so if you shot 4K ProRes Raw on a 512gb model you'd get around 50-ish mins of footage and then have painfully slow offloading. With USB 2.0 being 60 MBps that would take around 2 and half hours.
Click to expand...

USB 2.0 is around 35 MB/s sustained so make that 4 hrs.
Phones have built-in image correction algorythms to compensate lens and sensor limitations, which makes the "raw" part debatable. Though I wouldn't be surprised if Cupertinosaurus does to "raw" meaning what it did to "pro".
 
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