Anyone seen footage from sony F65?

[Bill Anderson]

Could it be any harder then when those crazy people dragged an IMAX camera up mount everest?

No, that is much much harder, and that is exactly the point Tom is making.

And talking about pulling things up the side of a mountain, I wonder what Aguirre, The Wrath of God would have looked like had an epic been available. Sacrilege to think about it, no doubt, but sacrilege is the only way forward. ( :

 

[Gavin Greenwalt]

I've climbed mountains and scrambled rivers... river scrambling is much much trickier. But we're getting off topic.

There is a balance. If I was scrambling to far off places--all things considered, I would rather bring something much much smaller than an epic. Something like this:

But we choose a full digital cinema camera for its picture quality. Size might matter but picture matters more. I would personally take an F65 sized camera to the ends of the earth (and curse it the whole way) if it made my effort worthwhile. The epic is proof of that. It's a lot of camera in a small package but even an Epic is a lot of camera to haul.

 

[Paul Ellington]

The Sony F65 is a worthy competitor. It is 8K (really 4K) but close enough...

We love that others have acknowledged that 1080P is not good enough.

Now... pick a camera that fits your size, price and shoots RAW.

It is amazing to me that after we set the mark... the big guys still come up short. Knowing that I will piss them off with this statement... they will be motivated. It is a good thing that we have lots tucked away for the future...

Jim

RED set the standard everyone else is falling into line ... I have pointed this out at my school and will continue to do so.

 

[Andrew Rieger]

We really are comparing apples to oranges here. Both camera are really incredible and I would be thrilled to shoot on either of them. I love the small size of the Epic and the lower cost but the Sony does have the spinning disc shutter and built in ND filters so really, they are probably equally good if look at what they have to offer. I think that the Epic will still be the king of 3D but I can see the F65 taking over many of the productions that would have been shot on 35mm film. Yes, I wish the F65 frame rates went a little higher but 60fps at 8K RAW is quite impressive when you consider that the camera is taking 60 20mpx pictures every second at 16bit 3:1 compression. That is a ton of data and you can really do a lot with 60fps. If you need more, you can rent an Epic or move up to phantom. Big productions often employ multiple cameras and I read that the new Tom Cruise film Oblivion is using both the F65 and the Epic so they must cut pretty well together.

And seriously, the F65 is not that big. It actually quite small when you put it next to a Panavision or Arri 35mm. I'm sure there are tons of DP's that will be thrilled by the size. I also hear that it is pretty light (sub 15pounds with recorder). For handheld work, I actually prefer a slightly heavier camera because it is a little more stable but that is just me. Really, both are these cameras are incredible when you look at the specs. Now I'm just wondering when Arri is going to join the 4K+ party. They really have no excuse at this point and it is really frustrating because they do make lovely cameras that shoot pretty images.

 

[Paul Ellington]

We really are comparing apples to oranges here. Both camera are really incredible and I would be thrilled to shoot on either of them. I love the small size of the Epic and the lower cost but the Sony does have the spinning disc shutter and built in ND filters so really, they are probably equally good if look at what they have to offer. I think that the Epic will still be the king of 3D but I can see the F65 taking over many of the productions that would have been shot on 35mm film. Yes, I wish the F65 frame rates went a little higher but 60fps at 8K RAW is quite impressive when you consider that the camera is taking 60 20mpx pictures every second at 16bit 3:1 compression. That is a ton of data and you can really do a lot with 60fps. If you need more, you can rent an Epic or move up to phantom. Big productions often employ multiple cameras and I read that the new Tom Cruise film Oblivion is using both the F65 and the Epic so they must cut pretty well together.

And seriously, the F65 is not that big. It actually quite small when you put it next to a Panavision or Arri 35mm. I'm sure there are tons of DP's that will be thrilled by the size. I also hear that it is pretty light (sub 15pounds with recorder). For handheld work, I actually prefer a slightly heavier camera because it is a little more stable but that is just me. Really, both are these cameras are incredible when you look at the specs. Now I'm just wondering when Arri is going to join the 4K+ party. They really have no excuse at this point and it is really frustrating because they do make lovely cameras that shoot pretty images.

Mr. Rieger, I humbly submit to you that I could build a house with 5 of those camera bodies from Sony.
Spinning shutter... Ok... I'll still take my Epic, it's not just how you acquire, it's how you finish... And could RED possibly have something up their sleeve at NAB?

 

[Andrew Rieger]

Mr. Rieger, I humbly submit to you that I could build a house with 5 of those camera bodies from Sony.
Spinning shutter... Ok... I'll still take my Epic, it's not just how you acquire, it's how you finish... And could RED possibly have something up their sleeve at NAB?

That would been one tiny ass house.

But in all seriousness, Sony gives us a camera with a spinning disc shutter, built in ND filters, a 20 mpx sensor that shoots oversampled 4K images with 14 stops of dynamic range, relatively noise free images up to ISO 3200, using 1TB solid state cards in a package smaller and lighter than almost all 35mm cameras and people still complain that it is not the size of a credit card. Oh well. I for one think that this is a huge leap for Sony. And I wish people would stop with the whole "Well they only did it cause RED pushed them too". The new Dodge Viper is designed to beat the Corvette ZR1 but you don't see people saying "Well if Chevy hadn't made such a good Corvette, Dodge never would have built the new Viper". All companies improve their products. Yes, Sony is aware of what others are doing but it's not like they would stop making new cameras if Red never existed. Red was one of the leading forces in the 4K revolution but there are others that wanted it too. Remember the Dalsa Origin? Plus Sony has been building 4K projectors for quite some time so I think it is always something they have had on their radar.

 

[Subhadip Sen]

That would been one tiny ass house.

But in all seriousness, Sony gives us a camera with a spinning disc shutter, built in ND filters, a 20 mpx sensor that shoots oversampled 4K images with 14 stops of dynamic range, relatively noise free images up to ISO 3200, using 1TB solid state cards in a package smaller and lighter than almost all 35mm cameras and people still complain that it is not the size of a credit card. Oh well. I for one think that this is a huge leap for Sony. And I wish people would stop with the whole "Well they only did it cause RED pushed them too". The new Dodge Viper is designed to beat the Corvette ZR1 but you don't see people saying "Well if Chevy hadn't made such a good Corvette, Dodge never would have built the new Viper". All companies improve their products. Yes, Sony is aware of what others are doing but it's not like they would stop making new cameras if Red never existed. Red was one of the leading forces in the 4K revolution but there are others that wanted it too. Remember the Dalsa Origin? Plus Sony has been building 4K projectors for quite some time so I think it is always something they have had on their radar.

Absolutely, for Sony, 2013 has been earmarked as the period for 4K Televisions, 4K Bluray, 4K Playstation 4, even 4K consumer camcorders (!), for several years now. RED is the pioneer from the content creation side, but no company in the world is going to push 4K content to the consumers as Sony Corp.

By 4K I mean QFHD, 3840x2160, of course.

 

[Andrew Rieger]

Absolutely, for Sony, 2013 has been earmarked as the period for 4K Televisions, 4K Bluray, 4K Playstation 4, even 4K consumer camcorders (!), for several years now. RED is the pioneer from the content creation side, but no company in the world is going to push 4K content to the consumers as Sony Corp.

By 4K I mean QFHD, 3840x2160, of course.

I agree. Give credit where credit is due and with the NEX 4K cam on the horizon, Sony is trying to lower the costs of 4K acquisition as well. I think the F65 is like $70,000 cheaper than the F35. I would say that that is a pretty big deal. Props Sony. Your move Canon and Arri.

 

[Paul Ellington]

That would been one tiny ass house.

But in all seriousness, Sony gives us a camera with a spinning disc shutter, built in ND filters, a 20 mpx sensor that shoots oversampled 4K images with 14 stops of dynamic range, relatively noise free images up to ISO 3200, using 1TB solid state cards in a package smaller and lighter than almost all 35mm cameras and people still complain that it is not the size of a credit card. Oh well. I for one think that this is a huge leap for Sony. And I wish people would stop with the whole "Well they only did it cause RED pushed them too". The new Dodge Viper is designed to beat the Corvette ZR1 but you don't see people saying "Well if Chevy hadn't made such a good Corvette, Dodge never would have built the new Viper". All companies improve their products. Yes, Sony is aware of what others are doing but it's not like they would stop making new cameras if Red never existed. Red was one of the leading forces in the 4K revolution but there are others that wanted it too. Remember the Dalsa Origin? Plus Sony has been building 4K projectors for quite some time so I think it is always something they have had on their radar.

I get what you are saying, too pricey, no real upgrade path, so it's just for the old boys which is fine... Like my father told me, we don't hire former stars we make them. I wanna be with the company that makes stars and RED has made 3 so far... Sony just came out with this... A few weeks ago Jim said... "Dragon is the shit" ... RED is one step beyond anything they can come up with... Jim must feel like Dark Helmet in "Space-balls" when he exclaims "... I'm surrounded by a%$#h*&... not aimed at you but the competition.

 

[Andrew Rieger]

I get what you are saying, too pricey, no real upgrade path, so it's just for the old boys which is fine... Like my father told me, we don't hire former stars we make them. I wanna be with the company that makes stars and RED has made 3 so far... Sony just came out with this... A few weeks ago Jim said... "Dragon is the shit" ... RED is one step beyond anything they can come up with... Jim must feel like Dark Helmet in "Space-balls" when he exclaims "... I'm surrounded by a%$#h*&... not aimed at you but the competition.

I'm not sure I buy the whole Red Magic Sauce thing. Red has some amazing engineers and designers pushing the envelope but they are not the only ones. Sony has one of the best image sensor divisions on the planet and their sensors are so good that Nikon uses them in their top of the line stills cameras. To act like Sony is somehow behind in camera tech development is illogical. Sony is probably working on tech that you would not believe if they told you. They are just less transparent than Red. Arri is even more secretive. Sony is known for being fashionably late to the party but they have all kinds of tech up their sleeves. And I'm not sure what you mean by upgrade path? I'm sure the Dragon sensor will be spectacular but it is not going to be 10X better than their current sensor. Unless there is some kind of Alien tech at work here, we can expect to see a nice improvement in terms of sensitivity, resolution and dynamic range but I am not expecting earth shattering improvements. We need to be realistic with our expectations. The Dragon is probably not going to be a 12K sensor with 24 stops of dynamic range and totally noise free images as ISO 6400.

 

[Tom Lowe]

... I wish people would stop with the whole "Well they only did it cause RED pushed them too".

The Sony F65 exists today at its current price because of one person: Jim Jannard

The Sony S35 FS700 4K camera for under $10,000 exists today because of one person: Jim Jannard

If you think these statements are untrue, I would be happy to enter in a formal debate on the topic here on a new thread. There is a deep, documented, clear history of Sony's anti-filmmaker business practices when it comes to their prosumer and digital cinema cameras, and how they have suddenly begun to change those practices once a certain retired sunglasses mogul turned up out of nowhere and sold 10,000 4K digital RAW cinema cameras, causing the floor to drop out from under the board room at Sony Cine Alta . Why do you think this F65 was rushed into production?

 

[Paul Ellington]

I'm not sure I buy the whole Red Magic Sauce thing. Red has some amazing engineers and designers pushing the envelope but they are not the only ones. Sony has one of the best image sensor divisions on the planet and their sensors are so good that Nikon uses them in their top of the line stills cameras. To act like Sony is somehow behind in camera tech development is illogical. Sony is probably working on tech that you would not believe if they told you. They are just less transparent than Red. Arri is even more secretive. Sony is known for being fashionably late to the party but they have all kinds of tech up their sleeves. And I'm not sure what you mean by upgrade path? I'm sure the Dragon sensor will be spectacular but it is not going to be 10X better than their current sensor. Unless there is some kind of Alien tech at work here, we can expect to see a nice improvement in terms of sensitivity, resolution and dynamic range but I am not expecting earth shattering improvements. We need to be realistic with our expectations. The Dragon is probably not going to be a 12K sensor with 24 stops of dynamic range and totally noise free images as ISO 6400.

Arri tries to steal secrets, they are scared, they are behind, and sometimes a pig is a pig. Sony, whatever love affair you might have with them are reacting to what RED has started. I am sorry but the might be doing great things, RED is doing the greatest things by leaps and bounds and RED is not that transparent, only when people steal their secrets which has been documented.

 

[Casey Green]

It is amazing to me that after we set the mark... the big guys still come up short. Knowing that I will piss them off with this statement... they will be motivated. It is a good thing that we have lots tucked away for the future...

Jim

I'm glad to hear it, because this industry moves way too fast, and it seems a few giants are finally starting to awaken...

 

[Andrew Rieger]

The Sony F65 exists today at its current price because of one person: Jim Jannard

The Sony S35 FS700 4K camera for under $10,000 exists today because of one person: Jim Jannard

If you think these statements are untrue, I would be happy to enter in a formal debate on the topic here on a new thread. There is a deep, documented, clear history of Sony's anti-filmmaker business practices when it comes to their prosumer and digital cinema cameras, and how they have suddenly begun to change those practices once a certain retired sunglasses mogul turned up out of nowhere and sold 10,000 4K digital RAW cinema cameras, causing the floor to drop out from under the board room at Sony Cine Alta . Why do you think this F65 was rushed into production?

Ya, and I'm glad that Red forced other companies to re-evaluate their pricing strategies. But it is not as simple as that. The F65 is a higher-volume product than the F35 and from what I hear, the CCD tech inside was quite pricy. Even Sony admits that the use of CMOS tech and higher production volume allowed them to drop the price substantially. Did they make these changes in order to compete with Red? Ya. Were they ripping people off before with the F35? Probably not. I don't think they sold a lot and most were rental house items so it makes sense. The market for the F35 was not the same market for the F65. Times change, Sony adapted. If anything, Red products have improved and have become more expensive (and justifiably so). Wasn't the R1 $17,000 when it came out? Listen, I'm not saying that Sony is some kind of shining city at the top of hill but I hate how people vilify every other company that is not Red as if they are hacks, liars, cheaters and stealers ages behind Red. This is simply the kind of brand bashing that makes digital cinematography annoying at times.

At some point, the brand loyalty on both sides starts to sound like a Kool Aid drinkers convention. Not trying to be offensive but Sony stepped up their game with this camera and put in a lot of new and interesting features. To act like it is some kind of Red rip off is really unfair to those who put hundreds of hours into its design and construction. And I don't think it was rushed into production at all. I heard rumors about this camera over three years ago.

 

[Andrew Rieger]

Arri tries to steal secrets, they are scared, they are behind, and sometimes a pig is a pig. Sony, whatever love affair you might have with them are reacting to what RED has started. I am sorry but the might be doing great things, RED is doing the greatest things by leaps and bounds and RED is not that transparent, only when people steal their secrets which has been documented.

Well thats all well and good but at the end of the day, I only care about one thing, the image. I will go with whatever camera gives me the best image and fits the bill in terms of my requirements. I could really care less who builds it. If LG was building the best camera for my budget, I would by it. There is no such thing as the "greatest thing". I have no idea what Red is developing and I have no idea what Sony and Arri are building (but I do hear rumors) so really, it is impossible to say who is ahead of who. There is no magic tech crystal ball. For all we know, another company could come out of nowhere and release this bombshell camera that is the answer to our prayers. Stating that one company is the be all end all of the industry is naive because history shows us that new companies enter the ring and dominate, only to lose down the road when another maverick comes and upsets the establishment. Just sayin.

 

[Paul Ellington]

Well thats all well and good but at the end of the day, I only care about one thing, the image. I will go with whatever camera gives me the best image and fits the bill in terms of my requirements. I could really care less who builds it. If LG was building the best camera for my budget, I would by it. There is no such thing as the "greatest thing". I have no idea what Red is developing and I have no idea what Sony and Arri are building (but I do hear rumors) so really, it is impossible to say who is ahead of who. There is no magic tech crystal ball. For all we know, another company could come out of nowhere and release this bombshell camera that is the answer to our prayers. Stating that one company is the be all end all of the industry is naive because history shows us that new companies enter the ring and dominate, only to lose down the road when another maverick comes and upsets the establishment. Just sayin.

You are correct ... I could also grow wings turn into an eagle... fly around the earth reversing time, say goodbye to my parents again ... People like Jim, Jarred, RED, Bomb Squad don't come along every day... A capacity to become bigger than Apple. Don't take my sarcasm too hard... People are changing and that is good... I believe Jim has this story arc planned so many years ahead that if you don't bet on RED you're dead in the water.

Nite folks.

 

[Andrew Rieger]

You are correct ... I could also grow wings turn into an eagle... fly around the earth reversing time, say goodbye to my parents again ... People like Jim, Jarred, RED, Bomb Squad don't come along every day... A capacity to become bigger than Apple. Don't take my sarcasm too hard... People are changing and that is good... I believe Jim has this story arc planned so many years ahead that if you don't bet on RED you're dead in the water.

Nite folks.

Not sure what you mean by saying that Red has the capacity to be bigger than Apple, totally different market and Red is not really in the consumer market. That died with the 3K for $3K thing. Jim is an amazing man, his team does amazing things but tech development is wonderful because it is a cat and mouse game where companies are pitted against one another as they fight for market share. Without competition, we lose as consumers. I would hate for Red to be the only option. The Epic is a tech marvel but it is not suited for every single project that needs to capture motion digitally. Choose the right tool for the job and don't let brand loyalty dictate what you buy. I love Red but that doesn't stop me from looking at what the competition has to offer. There is a reason why many top DP's do camera tests. If they only looked at brand, they would just rent that and go shoot. Peace.

 

[Gavin Greenwalt]

The Sony F65 exists today at its current price because of one person: Jim Jannard

The Sony S35 FS700 4K camera for under $10,000 exists today because of one person: Jim Jannard

I think that's ignoring the resolution trajectory much of the industry was already on. Whoever put 24p into the 5D probably lit a bigger fire under Sony's ass than RED to start getting cost competitive. Nokia has an 8k camera-phone! That's pure madness. Also the inevitable march of Moore's law.

RED has been great at staying ahead of the inevitable. But I'm not convinced anyone is actually putting up a fight based on the competition.

 

[Petri Teittinen]

"Sony has warned investors that it expects the largest loss in the company's 65-year history for the fiscal year ended on March 31, 3012. The net loss is expected to total 520 billion yen ($6.4 billion), more than double the previously projected loss of 220 billion yen ($2.73 billion)."

$6.4 billion dollars net loss. Sheesh. They need a top hat and a rabbit, stat.

 

[Tom Lowe]

I think that's ignoring the resolution trajectory much of the industry was already on. Whoever put 24p into the 5D probably lit a bigger fire under Sony's ass than RED to start getting cost competitive. Nokia has an 8k camera-phone! That's pure madness. Also the inevitable march of Moore's law.

RED has been great at staying ahead of the inevitable. But I'm not convinced anyone is actually putting up a fight based on the competition.

But this ignores the fact that Sony had been selling 2/3" 1080p cameras for a quarter of a million dollars and sticking indy shootes with 1/3 chips in order to "protect" their massively overpriced 2/3 1080p cameras. If you think Sony would have released a S35 4K camera right now for under $10K without Jim Jannard and Red pressuring them, I think you would have a very difficult time supporting that assertion, based on facts and evidence.