Anyone seen footage from sony F65?

[Subhadip Sen]

There are several exceptionally gorgeous movies shot on F35/Genesis, at 2K anyway. This includes my favourite movies from the last two years - Mysteries of Lisbon and Once Upon a Time in Anatolia - 2010 and 2011 respectively.

 

[Gunleik Groven]

Mechanical shutter, ND and color (?) wheels built in is very smart. The tradeoff is obviously size/weight/robustness with more mechanical parts...

 

[Max Nguyen]

Sony just bought the Ericsson out of Sony Ericsson for a billion dollars or so to copy what Apple has done and create a consumer ecosystem. They put the Playstation guy as head of it. What does this say about Professional stuff? Just look at what happened to Final Cut Pro. Buy a Sony Professional Cam now and you will be shit out of luck in the next 2 years. My humble prediction.

 

[Subhadip Sen]

Sony just bought the Ericsson out of Sony Ericsson for a billion dollars or so to copy what Apple has done and create a consumer ecosystem. They put the Playstation guy as head of it. What does this say about Professional stuff? Just look at what happened to Final Cut Pro. Buy a Sony Professional Cam now and you will be shit out of luck in the next 2 years. My humble prediction.

On the contrary, according to Sony Corp's restructuring program Digital Imaging has been pegged as their top focus area - consumer and professional products alike. Followed by Playstation and Mobile/Vaio. It is businesses like television and consumer electronics that are bleeding money, they are just too big for their own good.

Sony's key focus now (apart from Medical) - company wide - is 4K.

Sony is also drawing on its comprehensive strengths in audio and visual technologies to aggressively promote the growth of "4K" technology, which delivers more than four times the resolution of Full HD. Incorporation of Sony-developed technologies, such as image sensors, image processing compression LSIs and high-speed optical transmission modules into its professional-use and high-end consumer products will pave the way for Sony to continue to expand and enrich its 4K-compatible product lineup.

Like I have said several times before, no company is going to push 4K to the consumers like Sony Corp. I am sure all Red users can get behind this.

 

[Jay Birch]

Seems like alot of people on here are almost willing Sony to fail in the image sector.... You do realise that Sony make nearly all the 4K projectors that are out there? RED and Sony have had quite a symbiotic relationship over the past 5-6 years (RED producing the majority of 4K content, Sony displaying the majority of 4K content)....

You'd thinking Sony would get more fans on here, or at least some understanding that they are just as involved in the 4K movement.

 

[Paul Ellington]

Seems like alot of people on here are almost willing Sony to fail in the image sector.... You do realise that Sony make nearly all the 4K projectors that are out there? RED and Sony have had quite a symbiotic relationship over the past 5-6 years (RED producing the majority of 4K content, Sony displaying the majority of 4K content)....

You'd thinking Sony would get more fans on here, or at least some understanding that they are just as involved in the 4K movement.

When you jack the price up on people for that many years it's bound to cause some frustration. Even the walkman got me in trouble as a child because they were not cheap for parents to buy their kids, especially the water resistant ones, remember those? They were yellow...

 

[Hrvoje Simic]

The title of this thread is starting to become misleading.

 

[Rob Ruffo]

Cinema cameras are not consumer electronics and are not subject to the same kind of consumer demands. Often in studio production, smaller and lighter does not equal better. And while it's true that an Epic can be built up to have a bit more weight, it is not its normal configuration. For the same reason that dollies are not all Peewees and door dollies, smaller and lighter is not always what is desired for every situation. Having a bit more weight is useful in situations where inertia is your friend, like slow tracking shots of someone's face. And although cinema cameras are becoming more and more electronic, they are not "electronics" per se. They are optical capture devices, ones that use high quality optics - which themselves require some size and weight.



If we were talking about consumer devices, I would probably agree with you. But we're not. I agree that Sony would probably like to trim the size and weight of the F65 in future updates, but I also feel that their target is not likely the size and weight class of Epic. More like Alexa in all likelihood, at least in a studio configuration.

Fully agreed. Not every shoot is a run and gun doco. Larger size also means fewer heat dissipation problems. Less heat can allows better noise floors and quieter fans, and so on.

 

[Tom Lowe]

What if the Sony F65 was the size of an iPhone. What's to stop you from simply building a metal cage around it that fits your specifications for size, weight and balance? You can always add those things if you need to. But the rest of us would benefit enormously from having F65s the size of iPhones. Imagine how tiny the rigs could be for 3D. I simply do not buy this argument that it's better to have a bigger, heavier camera than a lighter, compact one.

 

[Paul Ellington]

The Sony F65 is a worthy competitor. It is 8K (really 4K) but close enough...

We love that others have acknowledged that 1080P is not good enough.

Now... pick a camera that fits your size, price and shoots RAW.

It is amazing to me that after we set the mark... the big guys still come up short. Knowing that I will piss them off with this statement... they will be motivated. It is a good thing that we have lots tucked away for the future...

Jim

Maybe I'm reading too much into this but here is what I think Jim could be sneaking in ... The new Dragon sensor is Full 8K RAW... While the F65 remains 4K... Just reaidng between the lines... It would make sense... Double the amount (not percentage) of pixels from when the RED ONE was released.

(pure guess-work)

 

[Rob Ruffo]

I just look at the facts and tick the boxes that suite my needs. As simple as that.

Everyone has different requirements from a camera package or is capabilities. With a lot of people liking brand names over practically and price... or there perception of image quality over other cameras.
Post production workflows become as deciding factor as well.

Everyone has a different list of boxes to tick.

Mark, it's not perception of image quality, like some scam. There are real differences between the three. All three cameras have a look that is unique. You like one or the other based on what you are shooting and subjective preference. Checkboxes are in no way useful for appreciating these differences. Your chart is also false. Although it's a small difference, the Alexa is the winner on exposure latitude. HDRX has proven problematic and so we never use it.

 

[M Most]

What if the Sony F65 was the size of an iPhone. What's to stop you from simply building a metal cage around it that fits your specifications for size, weight and balance? You can always add those things if you need to. But the rest of us would benefit enormously from having F65s the size of iPhones. Imagine how tiny the rigs could be for 3D. I simply do not buy this argument that it's better to have a bigger, heavier camera than a lighter, compact one.

Everyone has needs based on their particular area of expertise and specialty. From what I know of your work, you most definitely benefit from small size and weight because you're usually on location, requiring quick setup, easy movement from setup to setup, and the ability to quickly adapt to hand held mode. But my guess - and correct me if I'm wrong here - is that you haven't done much work on stages, shooting scripted drama where smooth moves on very tight closeups are often required. Or long, smooth tracking dolly moves that need to be repeated. Those kinds of things have different requirements than the type of shooting you happen to do, and often benefit from a different form factor.

 

[Mark Toia]

Mark, it's not perception of image quality, like some scam. There are real differences between the three. All three cameras have a look that is unique. You like one or the other based on what you are shooting and subjective preference. Checkboxes are in no way useful for appreciating these differences. Your chart is also false. Although it's a small difference, the Alexa is the winner on exposure latitude. HDRX has proven problematic and so we never use it.

Rob. Your lost.
Send me your Alexa or F65 shot. I'll match it with the Epic. Raw is raw. I can create what ever look, colour, contrast I desire...
All you guys talk like RED gives you one look and that's it. I don't work in a colour baked world like Alexa pro res users do... Alexa prores colour baked world does not have the latitude of a 16bit r3d. Your dreaming if you think it has. Arri raw is a different again and better than Prores. You can only push PRO res so far... Fact. Prores is not Raw!
And once again... (I'm sure people don't read things all the way through) Everyone ticks there own different boxes. These are my box ticks, not yours... So calm down big boy. Shessh !

 

[Tom Lowe]

Everyone has needs based on their particular area of expertise and specialty. From what I know of your work, you most definitely benefit from small size and weight because you're usually on location, requiring quick setup, easy movement from setup to setup, and the ability to quickly adapt to hand held mode. But my guess - and correct me if I'm wrong here - is that you haven't done much work on stages, shooting scripted drama where smooth moves on very tight closeups are often required. Or long, smooth tracking dolly moves that need to be repeated. Those kinds of things have different requirements than the type of shooting you happen to do, and often benefit from a different form factor.

Mike, again... I will ask the same question again, now for the third time: Is there anything stopping you from literally building an aluminum frame around a smaller camera and adding weights and such if you require a larger camera with a different weight balance or connection points??? This whole notion of saying that it is somehow a benefit for a camera to be larger and heavier seems extremely illogical to me.

 

[Matthew Bennett]

Rob. Your lost.
Send me your Alexa or F65 shot. I'll match it with the Epic. Raw is raw. I can create what ever look, colour, contrast I desire...
All you guys talk like RED gives you one look and that's it.

I want to see!


I admit I have no experience with the Epic or Alexa.


But as a side observer it seems like, if you shoot Epic, you have to basically work at Lightiron to get a look as 'nice' as the Alexa does straight out of the box.

My source for this observation is the incredible look of GWDT (loved), dozens of Epic clips online I've been less that satisfied by (vimeo), and then the same searches on vimeo revealing untold riches in Alexa footage which I find very satisfying to look at. And then all the Alexa TV shows, and Drive, Chronicle, etc..

Again, I know almost nothing of these cameras in a hands on basis...


Mods delete me now...
Couldn't help myself...

 

[Björn Benckert]

I want to see!


I admit I have no experience with the Epic or Alexa.


But as a side observer it seems like, if you shoot Epic, you have to basically work at Lightiron to get a look as 'nice' as the Alexa does straight out of the box.

My source for this observation is the incredible look of GWDT (loved), dozens of Epic clips online I've been less that satisfied by (vimeo), and then the same searches on vimeo revealing untold riches in Alexa footage which I find very satisfying to look at. And then all the Alexa TV shows, and Drive, Chronicle, etc..

Again, I know almost nothing of these cameras in a hands on basis...


Mods delete me now...
Couldn't help myself...

Your kidding right?
If the cameras are set side to side and shoot with same lens, same aperture, same frame rate etc. Then there is mathematical ways to match the epic picture to what ever you get out of the alexa to a degree that I can promise you that you can not see the difference with your human eye... However if you try to match the alexa footage to epic then the difference will be visible directly. since if you upscale alexa footage to 5k then it basically looks like turd.

And no you do not need to run you r footage by light iron, If you take a few minutes and fiddle with it in RCXP then it will look a lot better than what you get straight out of the alexa... since alexa does not feature unsharp mask, film grain, alchemy, and the other non curve based features of RCXP. Also red gives you raw, raw is options later, raw is better than non raw period it's nothing more to it. And basically if you do not understand the power of raw then there is a lot more for you to read learn and think about. Shooting with a look in camera might be nice, not being able to change it later is not so nice. Red lets you see the picture with preset luts applied just like the alexa then when it's time for post you can remake those decisions. It's actually quite simple but the first step is to understand raw.

 

[Mark Toia]

Hahaha... Oh my... Lucky for some of us, we have tried all 3 cameras. And all are good.

But image wise... Not one totally out shined another one. And at the end of the day.(using Raw files)! I could mix and match the 3 together and never know which one was which. The beauty of Raw!!!
It amazes me that people carry on about a look that anyone of those 3 cameras so called look can be changed at will. People need to use raw properly or this thread is useless.

And having to be light iron to get great pics... What a joke. Don't blame a cameras capabilities on someone's lack ok knowledge on how to grade... That's just straight dumb.

 

[Craig W. Bickerstaff]

Mike, again... I will ask the same question again, now for the third time: Is there anything stopping you from literally building an aluminum frame around a smaller camera and adding weights and such if you require a larger camera with a different weight balance or connection points??? This whole notion of saying that it is somehow a benefit for a camera to be larger and heavier seems extremely illogical to me.

Having a camera bigger has more advantages then weight balance and connection points, making tech smaller always has tradeoffs and a bigger form factor can give you faster hardware and more freedom with cooling etc. etc.

 

[M Most]

Mike, again... I will ask the same question again, now for the third time: Is there anything stopping you from literally building an aluminum frame around a smaller camera and adding weights and such if you require a larger camera with a different weight balance or connection points??? This whole notion of saying that it is somehow a benefit for a camera to be larger and heavier seems extremely illogical to me.

And I will answer for (by your count) the fourth and hopefully last time, that many, many people disagree with your assessment. People who shoot different things than you do under different conditions than you do. That doesn't make them right and you wrong or vice versa. If there were one right answer to any of these questions, there would be one form factor, one accepted aesthetic, one type of lens, and probably one manufacturer. There isn't because different people have different needs and different ways of filling them. I would point out that many in the industry would probably say that adding weights and cages to a tiny camera that weighs very little is also pretty darned illogical. That doesn't make it so, it just makes it something they wouldn't do. You would do well to understand and accept that your views are just your views, based in your own personal taste and your own personal shooting circumstances, and stop trying to project them on others who don't happen to work under the same circumstances.

 

[Bruce Allen]

Rob. Your lost.
Send me your Alexa or F65 shot. I'll match it with the Epic. Raw is raw. I can create what ever look, colour, contrast I desire...
All you guys talk like RED gives you one look and that's it. I don't work in a colour baked world like Alexa pro res users do... Alexa prores colour baked world does not have the latitude of a 16bit r3d. Your dreaming if you think it has. Arri raw is a different again and better than Prores. You can only push PRO res so far... Fact. Prores is not Raw!

Mark: Just pushing the colors to where they should be for flesh tones in post doesn't help much if the color variations across real skin are lost because they were never captured.

1. Just because a camera is RAW doesn't mean it has captured all of the subtleties of color in the scene. The color filters in front of the sensor are never perfectly pure and their spectral sensitivity is not necessarily exactly the same as a human eye, or motion picture film for that matter. Plus there is built in compression and some kind of noise reduction stuff going on in R3Ds that we can't turn off. Combine all that with certain lighting conditions that don't work to the sensors' color filters' best advantage and it means that you have a real danger of a RAW image that just doesn't capture certain variations in color.

2. I'm not sure why you think that Arri ProRes doesn't have the latitude of a 16bit R3D... I don't care if something is storing 128bit RAW... if the highlights are clipped and the blacks are noisy but you have another camera shooting 8bit JPEGS with clean blacks and smooth highlight detail, then the 8bit cam has better latitude. Extreme example of course - but numbers don't mean much on their own.

Bruce Allen
www.boacinema.com