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  • Hey all, just changed over the backend after 15 years I figured time to give it a bit of an update, its probably gonna be a bit weird for most of you and i am sure there is a few bugs to work out but it should kinda work the same as before... hopefully :)

Anyone seen footage from sony F65?

Adam S said:
That little chart of yours is cute and all but it does leave out several items and is miss checked on a few things. It is also is skewed towards Epic so it's not exactly a fair explanation.

My version of this list would go:

-Size- Epic
-Weight- Epic
-Post workflow- Alexa
-Price/performance- that's difficult to asses because if you're on a TV series that edits in ProRes then Alexa might be the best way to go, or if you're doing 3D then maybe Epic, or if you're shooting an VFX heavy show then the F65 might be best for you.
-Latitude- Alexa (HDR doesn't count because of the motion artifacts it introduces)
-Frame Rate- Epic (but they all have 120FPS capability which is pretty darn good)
-Service and Support- good across the board so again that's irrelevant in this comparison
-Firmware updates/costs- they are all equal because basic firmware updates are free from all of them (you're talking about features which weren't originally promised to be free so that's kinda of a loaded comparison)
-Upgradable- We've been told the Alexa is also designed for future upgrades so the jury is still out on that
-Resolution- F65
-Rental/return- Depends on the market you cater to
-Single person- Alexa
-Gorilla use- Epic
-Travel ease- Epic
-Interface- both the F65 and the Alexa are on par with eachother and are both easier to use than Epic's menu
-Lens mount options- Alexa also has Canon and Nikon mounts but they are made by 3rd party co.
-AKS- they all use the same AKS

Things you left out:
-Balanced for HH- Alexa
-Mechanical shutter- Both F65 and Alexa
-Uses existing AKS- Both F65 and Alexa
-Optical viewfinder- Alexa
-Cleanest Image @800ASA- Alexa
-Battery life- Epic (w/red brick)
-Recording Time- Epic

By my count the check list would total:
Epic-9
Alexa-11
F65-4

Thanks for the propaganda which does nothing more than add to the huge amount of more misinformation floating around out there about each camera system's capabilities, very productive. :emote_headwall: How long did it take you to make that check list?
Click to expand...

About. 10 minutes... Probably the same amount of time it took you to reply... And your angry reply must reflect your personality. Also.. the miss information is directly from there websites and there suppliers websites... The boxes ticked are just my needs an wants.

Like I said. Everyone has there own thoughts and desires and boxes will be ticked differently. My Epic is as easy to use as my iphone. Even my 14 year old kid can use it.

I'm not about to fight your opinions. For you the ARRI wins. :) that's good.
 
Tom Lowe said:
Talk to any ASC-level DP and they will all tell you the same thing about F65. "Great picture, but it's fucking HUGE. Have you seen it?" Exact same words from every single DP, without fail.
Click to expand...

Personally I'd like to see camera manufacturers go back to the design table and really think about ergonomics and functionality better than they've done recently, but that's me.

As for the "fucking HUGE" comment, I don't necessarily disagree with that, but it'd be interesting to know what the people saying that were actually comparing the camera to. If you put a F65 next to a 5d, yes, it is indeed huge, but is it a fair comparison? What if we put it next to an Arricam Studio, or a Panaflex?

As Mr. Most, Mr. Toia and others have said many many times, a lot depends on what a user is going to to with the camera. One camera doesn't rule out the other, and from what I can see, there are many instances when on the same set you see 3, 4, or even 5 different cameras being used for specific tasks along with the one which has been chosen as the "main system".
 
Andrew M. said:
I am betting man but in 3 years I think Sony Company will be still around but Sony cine camera business will not.
Not the way it is progressing right now.
This whole F65 project looks to me like “we can do it as well”
Click to expand...

I wish you were a betting man, i'd love to drop $10k on that bet :smiley:

The F65 is going to be a big success, in my opinion... and Sony seem to be aggressively settings themselves up in every niche area of the cinema business.
 
Tom Lowe said:
Talk to any ASC-level DP and they will all tell you the same thing about F65. "Great picture, but it's fucking HUGE. Have you seen it?" Exact same words from every single DP, without fail.

Anyone who thinks digital cinema cameras are somehow immune from the laws of consumer electronics is fooling themselves. You can always add weight or volume to something, if your complaint is that it's too small. The same thing could have been said about an iPhone versus that Gordon Gekko-style cell phone I posted above. "Oh you can't have a phone of the size of a deck of cards.. no one will be able to use it! The mouthpiece doesn't even reach your mouth..." and so on and so forth.
Click to expand...

Most ASC-level DPs will be familiar with using 35mm film cameras (which are large & heavy). In comparison, the F65 is smaller & lighter, so would doubt they view the camera size as an issue?
 
John Howarth said:
Most ASC-level DPs will be familiar with using 35mm film cameras (which are large & heavy). In comparison, the F65 is smaller & lighter, so would doubt they view the camera size as an issue?
Click to expand...

Your right...

I'd like to see a f65 3D camera setup though... I doubt it would look like this.

ts-5-3ality.jpg
 
Mark Toia said:
I just look at the facts and tick the boxes that suite my needs. As simple as that.

Everyone has different requirements from a camera package or is capabilities. With a lot of people liking brand names over practically and price... or there perception of image quality over other cameras.
Post production workflows become as deciding factor as well.

Everyone has a different list of boxes to tick.

Sony_Arri_Epic_2.jpg
Click to expand...

Good chart. But for accuracy the Sony does not have 20 million active pixels. It's 17.6 million, so 8K CMOS may be a dubious claim.

As for max FPS you'd need a qualifier for "at full frame resolution", or else you can take EPIC up to to 120 fps for 5120 x 2160.

From what I have been told by someone who has post produced F-65 content, the current image recorded to the rear of camera recorder is 16-bit 4096 x 2160 RAW @ about 3.1 compression.
 
Last edited:
Gentlemen please!!!

This has nothing to do with the subject at hand, sorry, but I have to say it. It is not "Gorilla" use, huge monkeys with 5 times the strength of the strongest body builder, and probably 10 times that of your typical camera operator, do not need light cameras in their quest for beautiful images. It is actually "Guerrilla" as in the small group of combatants that is able to move quickly around and avoid their pursuers because they pack light. Guerrilla, not Gorilla. Mark, however you misuse a term, you are my man and your words are gospel, but just saying....

Thank you!
 
Mark Toia said:
Your right...

I'd like to see a f65 3D camera setup though... I doubt it would look like this.
Click to expand...

Certainly not right now, but it might once Sony comes out with the T-head version of the F65. Of course, you'd also have a fiber cable coming off the backpack....

The chart is interesting (a bit skewed towards both Red and a personal ownership model, but I digress.....), but it's missing the most important criteria of all: Image Characteristics. That's a criteria that doesn't have a straight answer as it's dependent on the project, the subject matter, and the creative intent. Which is why it's so great to have these choices. I found myself just the other day recommending that a show currently on Alexa think about Red for next season because a "harder" look (i.e., "sharper") would probably be more appropriate and complimentary to the particular storytelling. Those are the kind of recommendations and conversations I really enjoy....
 
Is a discussion about the size and weight trends in cameras "missing the most important criteria of all: image characteristics"? The general idea behind this discussion revolves around whether the F65 might have been made smaller and lighter (without compromising its image quality). It does look like a bit of a throwback to me, as far as size goes. When it comes down to it, I believe the smaller and lighter X's will prevail over large and heavy X's. Just a hunch.

And to be fair to Mark, he did qualify his tick box list as something that best appeals his personal needs, rather than suggesting his tick marks were a universal sign of superiority.
 
Bill Anderson said:
Is a discussion about the size and weight trends in cameras "missing the most important criteria of all: image characteristics"? The general idea behind this discussion revolves around whether the F65 might have been made smaller and lighter (without compromising its image quality)..
Click to expand...

The discussion may revolve around that, but Mark's chart - which is what I referred to - does not. It revolves around specific criteria that are important to him, which happens to include size and weight, but also includes a lot of other things like price, upgradeabiliity, dynamic range, available frame rates, work flow considerations, resolution, and a few other items that have nothing to do with size or weight. I simply added one more item to that list.
 
Marc Wielage said:
Actually, I think once you hang a viewfinder, a Redmote, rails, a big battery, and a Pix on a Red Camera, it's about the same size. Check this out:

Sony-F65-Camera1.jpg
Click to expand...

tommpriver.jpg


The Epic and the F65 are not even close in size. Try doing this with an F65...
 
Adam S said:
Thanks for the propaganda which does nothing more than add to the huge amount of more misinformation floating around out there about each camera system's capabilities, very productive. :emote_headwall: How long did it take you to make that check list?
Click to expand...

Any more posts like this and the thread will be closed. Do not make personal attacks against people, claiming that their contribution to the thread is "propaganda." Do it again and you will be banned. This type of negative behavior is not allowed here, Adam S.
 
Lol if you saw the rocks I had to scramble over to even get to that spot, your opinion might change.
 
Well about 5 mins before that picture above was taken, I was carrying the epic in one hand and scrambling out over some very slick rocks. I took a bad fall, and the Epic came very, very close to being dropped in the water when I feel. Sheer luck that it survived that day. Sure there might be some kind of superman/rock climber who could have carried the F65 out onto that rock and taken some footage... I but personally could not have.
 
The Sony F65 is a worthy competitor. It is 8K (really 4K) but close enough...

We love that others have acknowledged that 1080P is not good enough.

Now... pick a camera that fits your size, price and shoots RAW.

It is amazing to me that after we set the mark... the big guys still come up short. Knowing that I will piss them off with this statement... they will be motivated. It is a good thing that we have lots tucked away for the future...

Jim
 
The Camera will always be second to story, but a good camera can make a good story that much better. Im glad RED and others are there to help us tell our stories.
 
Jay Birch said:
I wish you were a betting man, i'd love to drop $10k on that bet :smiley:

The F65 is going to be a big success, in my opinion... and Sony seem to be aggressively settings themselves up in every niche area of the cinema business.
Click to expand...

Jay, you must know something that I don't .....?

I bet bit more than 10K against Nortel

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nortel

Producer of legacy equipment, well if there is any lesson to be learned....

http://orangecone.com/archives/2006/03/supply-driven_p.html

"If there isn't a user-guided vision at the center of that unification, it's going to fail as quickly as the islands of engineering utopias."

Don't see the budget any bigger for this?

http://www.sony.net/SonyInfo/IR/financial/ar/2011/p13.html
 
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