Any Truth To This: Red + Foxconn = Low Cost Professional Cameras For The Masses ??

[Zeb B]

Not if you have the knowledge of building your own drones.
With $5K you can basically buy all the parts to build a decent Octo that can fly Red/Mini. Then add about 3-5 days building, testing and adjusting.
I have been flyng Red/Mini packages in the $50K+ for the last 3 years with two identical $5K self-built drones without any issues.
The huge advantage over the off the shelf solution à la Freefly and DJI, if something goes wrong you are able to fix yourself. Or you can do any tweakings, adjustings to your liking.

$5K for the same functionality as a current two op Inspire 2? That's impressive!

 

[H Dewey]

If you want to see the future ... A monstro most likly comes with high production costs involved. But its also proven that they can make Raven for far less. So if they can ramp up the numbers and streamline the production with FOXCON its very likly monstro comes at a raven price quite soon. I doubt arri can do the same with the LF as it will sell in far les numbers.

So a RAVEN will come in around $800? If not, why would any one buy a RAVEN when they can have a Monstro for under $10,000? And what about Scarlet and Epic? I get the law of large numbers, but I think the Raven priced Monstro is also goverened by the law of raw material prices.

 

[Zeb B]

So a RAVEN will come in around $800? If not, why would any one buy a RAVEN when they can have a Monstro for under $10,000? And what about Scarlet and Epic? I get the law of large numbers, but I think the Raven priced Monstro is also goverened by the law of raw material prices.

There's nothing ridiculously expensive about producing a digital movie camera. It's not made of platinum. It's all about economies of scale: if you buy 10 sensors they may cost $1M each. If you buy 10M of them they might cost $100 each. Electronics are especially quantity / price driven. Making a Monstro camera for less than $10K is not a fantasy - just like an iPhone for less than $1K. Historically RED has not been a high volume production company. Seems very much a design, prototype and hand make limited quantities of boutique products. I mean what's the total universe of all RED cameras combined, like 60-80K units?

8K$8K is just around the corner, either by RED or somebody else

 

[Thai Christen]

$5K for the same functionality as a current two op Inspire 2? That's impressive!

Inspire 2 cannot fly Red/Mini, cine lens and FIZ.
So no, with $5K (plus some labour work) I get much more

EDIT: ok to make it fair, you need to add approx. $5K for gimbal (Gremsy H7/16), two Futaba Tx, Connex. This does not include batteries and chargers.

 

[C. Burkhart]

Everyone's very focused on RED in this deal, but the truth is, what's in it for Foxconn ?
Which is why I continue to believe that the core of this deal is not to do with producing cameras, but rather cell phones with high quality cameras.
That smells of the kind of business sense that JJ has always interested himself in as well.
Up to this point RED has been a pet project and an exercise in brand recognition.
RED may have at various moments pushed the envelope but its probably a break even business.
As Foxconn needs to reduce it's dependency on the iphone, the intiative cannot really be about cameras.
They need to sell in millions of units on a regular basis.
JJ would definitely want a part of that too.

So folks may get their hopes up here, but I don't see a budget camera with the bells and whistles people really need here, anywhere around the corner. I see benefits related to economies of scale, but I would definitely temper my expectations bearing in mind that many strategic partnerships last only for an iteration or two before falling through the cracks.

 

[Hrvoje Simic]

There's nothing ridiculously expensive about producing a digital movie camera.

Yeah, let's ask the guy who said something like:

"How do you become a millionaire? You start from a billion and start a camera company".

It's not made of platinum. It's all about economies of scale: if you buy 10 sensors they may cost $1M each. If you buy 10M of them they might cost $100 each.

And you buy 10M sensors with peanuts.

Peak performance and high production capacity do not go very well together.
You can buy 10M sensors for pocket snitches. Not high end professional imaging.

 

[H Dewey]

There's nothing ridiculously expensive about producing a digital movie camera. It's not made of platinum. It's all about economies of scale: if you buy 10 sensors they may cost $1M each. If you buy 10M of them they might cost $100 each. Electronics are especially quantity / price driven. Making a Monstro camera for less than $10K is not a fantasy - just like an iPhone for less than $1K. Historically RED has not been a high volume production company. Seems very much a design, prototype and hand make limited quantities of boutique products. I mean what's the total universe of all RED cameras combined, like 60-80K units?

8K$8K is just around the corner, either by RED or somebody else

I'm not saying 8k cameras can't be made inexpensively. I'm saying Monstro cameras can't be made as cheaply as you suggest... at least not for awhile. And probably by the time they can be made cheaply, I suspect we'll be shooting something completely different, whatever that may be.

 

[Eric Lange]

I'm not saying 8k cameras can't be made inexpensively. I'm saying Monstro cameras can't be made as cheaply as you suggest... at least not for awhile. And probably by the time they can be made cheaply, I suspect we'll be shooting something completely different, whatever that may be.

Some sensors are really expensive as they are a large pieces of silicon to get right... Sensors that are 40 mm ++ (wide) anything that gets towards 54 mm wide is hellishly expensive. Smaller sensors of the order of 24 mm wide waaaaay cheaper.

Anybody remember the Kodak 14N that was a 14 mp (Cmos) full frame stills camera https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kodak_DCS_Pro_14n

That was retailed for about $5k (in 2002-ish)... Then no else made a full frame DSLR for a really really long time and when they did it was hellishly expensive for what it was.

So I doubt even with Foxconn (streamlining the sensor production processes having acquired SHARP's semiconductor plant in 2016), and five years down the road that one would see a large 8K sensor (40 mm + wide) for significantly less than $30K.

 

[Eric Lange]

Everyone's very focused on RED in this deal, but the truth is, what's in it for Foxconn ?
Which is why I continue to believe that the core of this deal is not to do with producing cameras, but rather cell phones with high quality cameras.
That smells of the kind of business sense that JJ has always interested himself in as well.
Up to this point RED has been a pet project and an exercise in brand recognition.
RED may have at various moments pushed the envelope but its probably a break even business.
As Foxconn needs to reduce it's dependency on the iphone, the intiative cannot really be about cameras.
They need to sell in millions of units on a regular basis.
JJ would definitely want a part of that too.

So folks may get their hopes up here, but I don't see a budget camera with the bells and whistles people really need here, anywhere around the corner. I see benefits related to economies of scale, but I would definitely temper my expectations bearing in mind that many strategic partnerships last only for an iteration or two before falling through the cracks.

So what you are saying here is that Foxconn doesn't "Get out of bed" for less than "Millions of units".

Reduced feature set cameras would be valid. i.e. not all the bells and whistles. Although sometime I have seen more amateur offerings of a product line actually have more "Bells and whistles" lol. "Damn bells and whistles, what I'd pay to get rid of them...?".

I think RED makes money.

I think for Foxconn (haven't done all my homework yet), but looks like they are fixin to become a media giant also... musings about "cloud this and cloud that" (from Terry Gou) and AI... And I wonder if there's something about REDCODE that lends itself to other forms of delivery and streaming perhaps?

I think also for RED and Foxconn there is a certain amount of prestige with the RED brand and Holywoo ...

_________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________

@C Burkhart so you really think that HYDROGEN will be manufactured on the scale of millions (possibly)?

 

[H Dewey]

The third or 4th thought that came to mind when pondering the Foxconn/RED association was that it was somehow connected to the RED/Leia association. Sharp makes TVs so display, possibly using .4v tech and RED's codecs in general, could be how Foxconn positions themselves for glassless 3d and or holographic display.

I don't know who is putting together these deals, whether Jim or Jarred or some other member of the RED team, but whoever, I'm impressed by their thinking.

 

[C. Burkhart]

So what you are saying here is that Foxconn doesn't "Get out of bed" for less than "Millions of units".

Reduced feature set cameras would be valid. i.e. not all the bells and whistles. Although sometime I have seen more amateur offerings of a product line actually have more "Bells and whistles" lol. "Damn bells and whistles, what I'd pay to get rid of them...?". The

I think RED makes money.

I think for Foxconn (haven't done all my homework yet), but looks like they are fixin to become a media giant also... musings about "cloud this and cloud that" (from Terry Gou) and AI... And I wonder if there's something about REDCODE that lends itself to other forms of delivery and streaming perhaps?

I think also for RED and Foxconn there is a certain amount of prestige with the RED brand and Holywoo ...

_________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________

@C Burkhart so you really think that HYDROGEN will be manufactured on the scale of millions (possibly)?

People really need to stop thinking about sensor specs and think about the much bigger endgame.

I don't think Hydrogen will be manufactured in the millions or even hundreds of thousands. I think RED developed Hydrogen to get Foxconn's and it's biggest partner's attention.

And yes, I am saying that Foxconn doesnt get out of bed to reduce their dependance on Apple for peanut quantities of cameras.

I think they are both exploring a strategic partnership and even themselves are not quite sure how that will play out.

It is likely they are exploring cross product pollination and if for instance Foxconn begins making their own telephone, they might indeed want Red to be the developer for the camera element. In return I think it would give RED a factory to bring in lower cost elements and even assembly for their cameras. So basically you might get a less expensive camera, but you can forget the "Made in America" tag.

What I am also saying is that the mistake people are making here is that they are looking at it from a Red-centric point of view and they need to look at it from the bigger partners perspective - Foxconn. Who is trying to create insurance for it's longevity.

Put another way, currently both RED and Foxconn to some degree are basking in both the prestigious glow and the shadow of the biggest player of them all - Apple. Which is why I don't think this is about cameras. Because as we know, if they are successful in creating the next gen of cell phone they are either a friend or a foe - and we all know how these things work out...

In which case JJ has just landed himself another opportunity to be bought out again for a tremendous amount of money.
.

 

[Zeb B]

Peak performance and high production capacity do not go very well together.

Really? So hand making a product will give you a better result than developing Six Sigma style processes for repeatability? Someone better tell the Japanese and Germans this quickly ;-)

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Six_Sigma

 

[Zeb B]

Inspire 2 cannot fly Red/Mini, cine lens and FIZ.
So no, with $5K (plus some labour work) I get much more

EDIT: ok to make it fair, you need to add approx. $5K for gimbal (Gremsy H7/16), two Futaba Tx, Connex. This does not include batteries and chargers.

What is your day rate for labor? Add a week+ of that to be fair ;-)

 

[Hrvoje Simic]

Really?

Yes, really.

Ever heard of yields ?

So hand making a product will give you a better result than developing Six Sigma style processes for repeatability?

Shall I link the Strawman again ?
Where did you see "hand making" ?

Go with that Six Sigma concept to a sensor manufacturer and watch their facial expression on your 100000 pcs top spec custom sensor design order.
Or to Lamborghini or Aston Martin and any order from their product line up.

 

[Zeb B]

I'm not saying 8k cameras can't be made inexpensively. I'm saying Monstro cameras can't be made as cheaply as you suggest... at least not for awhile. And probably by the time they can be made cheaply, I suspect we'll be shooting something completely different, whatever that may be.

I agree with the general premise that in 10 years we'll look back at the amount of bullshit it took to record and process a movie quality image and laugh. Like that teenagers 10 years from now might never get a driver's license - since that's what cars will do automatically

 

[Zeb B]

Yes, really.

Ever heard of yields ?



Shall I link the Strawman again ?
Where did you see "hand making" ?

Go with that Six Sigma concept to a sensor manufacturer and watch their facial expression on your 100000 pcs top spec custom sensor design order.
Or to Lamborghini or Aston Martin and any order from their product line up.

Perhaps a mirror with some soft music and low lighting while arguing with yourself would be a good way to take the edge off ;-)

 

[Zeb B]

Everyone's very focused on RED in this deal, but the truth is, what's in it for Foxconn ?
Which is why I continue to believe that the core of this deal is not to do with producing cameras, but rather cell phones with high quality cameras.
That smells of the kind of business sense that JJ has always interested himself in as well.
Up to this point RED has been a pet project and an exercise in brand recognition.
RED may have at various moments pushed the envelope but its probably a break even business.
As Foxconn needs to reduce it's dependency on the iphone, the intiative cannot really be about cameras.
They need to sell in millions of units on a regular basis.
JJ would definitely want a part of that too.

So folks may get their hopes up here, but I don't see a budget camera with the bells and whistles people really need here, anywhere around the corner. I see benefits related to economies of scale, but I would definitely temper my expectations bearing in mind that many strategic partnerships last only for an iteration or two before falling through the cracks.

Foxconn is signaling to the world it is ready to meet any technical challenge and move beyond their type cast role of the iPhone guys

 

[C. Burkhart]

Foxconn is signaling to the world it is ready to meet any technical challenge and move beyond their type cast role of the iPhone guys

Foxconn is moving beyond being a component manufacturer to being a product maker.
You can bet they are looking towards making their own phones.

 

[Hrvoje Simic]

Perhaps a mirror with some soft music and low lighting while arguing with yourself would be a good way to take the edge off ;-)

Calm in a coffee place with slow jazz music. No edges.

 

[Eric Lange]

People really need to stop thinking about sensor specs and think about the much bigger endgame.

I don't think Hydrogen will be manufactured in the millions or even hundreds of thousands. I think RED developed Hydrogen to get Foxconn's and it's biggest partner's attention.

And yes, I am saying that Foxconn doesnt get out of bed to reduce their dependance on Apple for peanut quantities of cameras.

I think they are both exploring a strategic partnership and even themselves are not quite sure how that will play out.

It is likely they are exploring cross product pollination and if for instance Foxconn begins making their own telephone, they might indeed want Red to be the developer for the camera element. In return I think it would give RED a factory to bring in lower cost elements and even assembly for their cameras. So basically you might get a less expensive camera, but you can forget the "Made in America" tag.

What I am also saying is that the mistake people are making here is that they are looking at it from a Red-centric point of view and they need to look at it from the bigger partners perspective - Foxconn. Who is trying to create insurance for it's longevity.

Put another way, currently both RED and Foxconn to some degree are basking in both the prestigious glow and the shadow of the biggest player of them all - Apple. Which is why I don't think this is about cameras. Because as we know, if they are successful in creating the next gen of cell phone they are either a friend or a foe - and we all know how these things work out...

In which case JJ has just landed himself another opportunity to be bought out again for a tremendous amount of money.
.

In the direction and sentiment of what you wrote here...


Just as a "Refresh"... https://asia.nikkei.com/Markets/Nikk...i-Asian-Review

If one reads page one and page two there are presented a lot bigger plans, time lines and extensive projects as well as facts and figures.

Apple is only 50% -ish of Foxconn's revenue and now Foxconn had devised the means to further capitalize by doing the IPO thing... FII . "To finance these new investments, Foxconn will list a subsidiary, Foxconn Industrial Internet (FII), its cloud and networking unit, on the Shanghai Stock Exchange. "...

At the very end of the article it says

"Although it did not specify how much money it plans to raise through the IPO, the prospectus disclosed that it planned to invest 27.25 billion yuan ($4.33 billion) across a wide range of areas, including smartphone component development, smart manufacturing, 5G, networking equipment and cloud platforms. FII's revenue for 2017 was 354.5 billion yuan, an increase of 30% from a year ago. Net income was 15.86 billion yuan, an increase of 10%, the prospectus said.

Foxconn generated 4.7 trillion New Taiwan dollars ($160.59 billion) in revenue for 2017. FII's revenue accounted for some 35% of Foxconn's sales."



Does sound like a very serious attempt at smart phones of their own but much more besides. I think Foxconn shipped 215 million I-phones for apple on an annual basis. Even if HYDROGEN was 0.5% of that that would be a million-ish HYDROGENS? No? That's a billion dollars +, worth of merchandise... So I'm guessing Foxconn (to keep using the attentive metaphor lol) doesn't get out bed for less than a Billion Dollars. I'm thinking 2% + (of equivalent volume of the annual apple I-phones shipped)+ other activities that may pan out to $4Bn-ish++ over a few years and would be more usefully attractive to these guys [Jim Jannard "Enterprises" and Foxconn/Terry Gou].

https://www.youtube.com/watch?time_continue=14&v=HZmafy_v8g8

^^^Millions vs Billions and a few trillions thrown in...

_____________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________


It's like all these partners could be prepared to provide the entire ecosystem for LEIA (technologies/ displays).

Specifically larger LEIA displays, and the whole chain of media content and generation. From holo capable smartphones to studio capable 4v/3d/holo capture to social media partners and other media content and hosted cloud based processing (not just storage).

Interestingly Apple is really not a 3d company and is quite entrenched (Rightly or wrongly) in 2d design in terms of company culture.

The stand out for me is this new display panel manufacturing plant that is going to be built in Wisconsin (paid for by Foxconn with deals struck by the Governor of Wisconsin) as well a major and developing presence in India.

I would not be surprised if Foxconn eventually had their own fledgling studios in partnership with RED.

Foxconn's stated time line and goal for significantly reducing semiconductor process costs, particularly for sensors was stated within "...one year" for the acquired SHARP plant.

______________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________

All I can say is that the LEIA/HYDROGEN display must be awfully awfully good.