Another fear...

[Tom Lowe]

The fact that the cameras cost different amounts, the fact that there is a discount that eases that pain, etc... that's all fine. The reason I didn't talk about the discount isn't because I feel that the discount isn't a major point... it's just that the discount holds no relevance to the point I was making.

The fact that the FF35 is more desirable than the S35... it's a given and not necessarily a huge point.

My point is that the Scarlet will cannibalize the Epic market to the point that the Epic is simply a high-speed camera with a few extra features. To quote my previous post:

If somebody outfits a Scarlet package in a professional manner, they will be poised to take 80% of the jobs from Epic owners.

I'm just saying that - all else equal - I don't see a compelling reason for anybody to rent an Epic unless they specifically need higher frame rates or can't live without certain niceties... the niceties that they're mostly living without right now.

Brook, be careful. I hope that posts like this are not responsible for the 3K@60fps option being REMOVED from Scarlet FF35. :bye2:

I understand the need to balance an investment with a business model, but let's be careful not to hamstring Jim's ability to produce the best camera for the best price. If FF35 Scarlet eats up Epic business, so be it. We can all adjust our planning accordingly.

 

[Brook Willard]

After some requests and with the desire to separate the points, I've moved the cannibalism discussion here.

 

[Mark Pugh]

They should make camera builds that disable features according to the features the customer needs.

Or just a daily shot log that including data of frame size and frame rates.
You could then charge accordingly.
It may be the only way an Epic hirer can compete with Scarlet for lots of shoots.

 

[Esteban Sosnitsky]

Brook, be careful. I hope that posts like this are not responsible for the 3K@60fps option being REMOVED from Scarlet FF35. :bye2:

I understand the need to balance an investment with a business model, but let's be careful not to hamstring Jim's ability to produce the best camera for the best price. If FF35 Scarlet eats up Epic business, so be it. We can all adjust our planning accordingly.

Specs like 3K@60fps are the ones that downgrade the R1. Thats what the R1 can do right now for $10K more. My believe is that Scarlet shouldnt eat Epic business, because if it does its also taking R1's business and there would be no point in getting neither unless you want higher fps. Plus your R1 investment places where exactly? If for 10K less you can get a new R1 called Scarlet (until we know all specs from scarlet this is my guess ... although Jim has stated that there will be circumstantial differences in terms of capabilities between both) The missing part is the Monstro sensor for S35 in the Epic upgrade; which wont come sooner than the Mysterium X because of the development process.
Finally, if we have to adjust our planning accordingly my ideal upgrade path would be trade in your R1 for 2 scarlets

 

[Mark Pugh]

Brook, be careful. I hope that posts like this are not responsible for the 3K@60fps option being REMOVED from Scarlet FF35. :bye2:

I understand the need to balance an investment with a business model, but let's be careful not to hamstring Jim's ability to produce the best camera for the best price. If FF35 Scarlet eats up Epic business, so be it. We can all adjust our planning accordingly.

I think Brook is saying that Red should indeed consider separating the models more, so removal of 3k@60fps would be welcome in that context.

I guess that if Epic's business is crippled by scarlet, Red won't be making as many Epics, and the Epic will therefore be more expensive to produce, Jim's ability to produce an EPIC at a given price-point will be reduced.
Tom you're speaking in defense of the Scarlet you want to buy, Brook and I speak in defense of the Epics we want to buy... the s*&^fight starts here, before a single job or producer walks in!!

 

[Tom Lowe]

I think Brook is saying that Red should indeed consider separating the models more, so removal of 3k@60fps would be welcome in that context.

I guess that if Epic's business is crippled by scarlet, Red won't be making as many Epics, and the Epic will therefore be more expensive to produce, Jim's ability to produce an EPIC at a given price-point will be reduced.
Tom you're speaking in defense of the Scarlet you want to buy, Brook and I speak in defense of the Epics we want to buy... the s*&^fight starts here, before a single job or producer walks in!!

I am speaking in defense of Jim being able to put out the best camera for the best price, period. The market will decide what is valuable and what is not. If FF35 Scarlet competes with Epic, then make a business decision and buy FF35 Scarlet. What some people seem to be arguing in favor of is asking Jim to HOLD BACK technology from certain cameras... which is what companies like Sony and Canon have been doing for decades.

Specs like 3K@60fps are the ones that downgrade the R1.

So you want Jim to hold back that technology?

 

[Rick Darge]

I like the idea of figuring out some upgrade option for R1 owners that want to step down to a Scarlet, other than a 12% trade in. Brook, I hear your fears. It will be a while though before we see the goods. in the meantime, I will continue to profit from my R1

 

[Tom Lowe]

I think some kind of "upgrade" path to buying a FF or S35 Scarlet with all the bells and whistles might make sense. As long as the purchase is in the 20-40K range. I have no issue with people requesting that. But trying to cripple new cameras is not the way to go, IMO.

 

[Esteban Sosnitsky]

I am speaking in defense of Jim being able to put out the best camera for the best price, period.

So you want Jim to hold back that technology?

Certainly not, but I feel you are missing the point.
First of all Jim has already being able to put out a gorgeous camera at an unbeatable price.
But, what we are talking about here is the investment we've made towards the R1 and how in a year that investment will have to make a choice. If you do not have an R1 now its easy, you have a lot of options. If you DO have an R1 right now, you are scratching your head saying what the heck am I supposed to do now. The options Jim has shared are fantastic, who else would buy my R1 at the same price that I bought it?? I mean, we are not dumb... its just that there are a lot of questions that remain unanswered in terms of what should we choose when the time comes. And we fear that choice because the upgrade path seems confusing and if like pieces dont fit.

 

[Tom Lowe]

Bottom line: are you asking Jim to cripple new cameras or not?

 

[Esteban Sosnitsky]

I think I have already answered that question.

 

[Mark Pugh]

Bottom line: are you asking Jim to cripple new cameras or not?

Tom no-one's asking Jim to cripple cameras. I was just saying that less Epics are sold, then by the laws of mass-production, they'll be at a higher price to produce, therefore they probably won't be as good value for their given price.
That's before the Scarlet reduces the Epics's rental value and resale value.
So the Scarlet cripples the Epic. Get it?

 

[Justin O'Neill]

I'm really surprised that they have drawn this line (no S35 Monstro) in the sand. It just doesn't make any sense and leaves a very large hole in the market for some other company to exploit.

Stephen

Stephen, the way I see it the S35 Monstro DOES exist...and for only $9,750!

It is called the FF35 Scarlet. If you put S35 lenses on this brain aren't you in fact getting the same benefits of a S35 Monstro sensor??

To me the FF35 Scarlet is just an S35 Monstro with a little extra sensor there if you want to shoot FF stills.

Am I missing something?

 

[Tom Lowe]

Tom no-one's asking Jim to cripple cameras. I was just saying that less Epics are sold, then by the laws of mass-production, they'll be at a higher price to produce, therefore they probably won't be as good value for their given price.
That's before the Scarlet reduces the Epics's rental value and resale value.
So the Scarlet cripples the Epic. Get it?

That's the market at work.

 

[Matt Uhry]

I'm just saying that - all else equal - I don't see a compelling reason for anybody to rent an Epic unless they specifically need higher frame rates or can't live without certain niceties... the niceties that they're mostly living without right now.

Have some faith, there are the same lack of truly compelling reasons to rent an Arricam ST instead of a BL4 - they both are quiet enough and make great images in the right hands. Producers spending $120,000 a day are not going to get shy about the last $800 bucks to get a camera with all possible capabilities.

Matt Uhry
www.mattuhry.com

 

[Brook Willard]

Here's the way I see it.

Right now, the product lines conflict. Scarlet has grown too big for its britches and will dominate Epic's market.

I'm going to guess that the reason we're seeing the Mysterium X instead of the Monstro in the S35 models is that RED had been working on that sensor in that size for a while. The 30mm x 15mm sensor size is unusual, but it was likely the result of the sensor's pixel density. They knew they needed 5K to make the camera justifiable... and the larger sensor would finally let a RED camera shoot super 35mm.

So they worked on the S35 and 2/3" Mysterium X sensors. Then the big shakeup happened. Whether the result of threads like Tom's and my own, heat from others in the industry, pressure from Canon and Nikon or RED's own ingenuity, they decided to redesign everything.

So the S35 MX sensor [which was likely the original Epic sensor] got dropped into the products that needed it and new sensors were made to fill in the gaps.

Whether or not I'm even remotely correct, the sensor distribution feels downright reactionary. There isn't a clear distribution of sensors or features between the product lines.

If the opportunity to redesign the product line were mine, this is how I would do it:

All Scarlet models would have the Mysterium X sensor. All Epic models would have the Monstro sensor. That's easy enough. It creates a very distinct break between the models. The best Scarlet with all of the trimmings will always be worse than the lowest-end Epic. That's the very nature of having "mid-range" and "high-end" product lines.

Now this might mean designing an S35 Monstro or it might not simply call for an elimination of the S35 Epic altogether. This is how:

Initial Rollout

• Scarlet 2/3" models ship
• RED ONE Mysterium X upgrade is made available
• Scarlet S35 of current specification ships if/when ready

The RED ONE MX upgrade would either be a sensor of the RED ONE's current size or - more likely - the same 30mm x 15mm wafer cut for the S35 Scarlet. If possible, the RED ONE's frame rates would be beefed up.

This keeps the RED ONE in its current position as the "best" camera. It has the new MX sensor, potentially higher frame rates and the same features we know and love.

The Scarlet models would have the same frame rates that are currently specced. There is now a distinct "high-end" RED ONE line and "low-end" Scarlet line.

No Epic cameras would ship at this time as the Monstro sensor is not complete yet.

Subsequent Rollout

• Epic models ship
• Scarlet FF35 Mysterium X ships
• RED ONE Monstro upgrade made available at some point

The Epic FF35 Monstro and 645 Monstro models ship. The 617 ships whenever it's ready [I view this as more of a standalone product].

The Epic S35 model either ceases to exist [its spot would eventually be filled by the RED ONE Monstro upgrade] or would be made with the Monstro sensor. It would be a lower resolution - roughly 4.5K - as a result of the different pixel density.

The Scarlet FF35 MX model ships. This camera would either have a slightly smaller sensor [to maintain the same resolution with the smaller pixel size] or would have a slightly higher resolution [for the same reason]. It would have the same specs as the current model. Hell, it might even be cheaper as it wouldn't need a Monstro sensor.

This just cleans up the product line in my eyes. You've got the Scarlet models at the low end, the Epic models at the high end and the RED ONE sticking around as a viable option for those that wish to keep upgrading theirs. The Epic models would also benefit from more development time coupled with the lessons learned from the early Scarlet models.

The only people that don't win here are the guys who want the Scarlet as currently specced because they realize just how much of the industry those cameras are going to eat.

Overall, this just makes a LOT more sense. The product lines stop conflicting, cameras no longer lose jobs to each other and every product has a purpose and slot in the market.

So from the cynical point of view... I suppose I am asking for the Scarlet FF35 model to be crippled. It would have less dynamic range than its current specification. In the grand scheme of things, I'm asking for two changes: the Scarlet FF35 changes to MX and the Epic S35 either goes away or becomes a Monstro. Those two changes would clean up the product line and result in better products a more logical market arrangement.

Thoughts?

 

[Brook Willard]

Have some faith, there are the same lack of truly compelling reasons to rent an Arricam ST instead of a BL4 - they both are quiet enough and make great images in the right hands. Producers spending $120,000 a day are not going to get shy about the last $800 bucks to get a camera with all possible capabilities.

Matt Uhry
www.mattuhry.com

That is a good point...

 

[Zakaree Sandberg]

good points brook.
(second thinking what I need to do)
I dont want to get left in the dust with a more expensive camera and having the less expensive dominate my potential rental.
its a timing thing now.. when do i sell my R1
(when can i get max amount of money for it)
Id hate to decide not to upgrade to epic because of cost.. but then i can only sell my redone for 4-5 grand and then buy a scarlet.. ouch

 

[Justin O'Neill]

So from the cynical point of view... I suppose I am asking for the Scarlet FF35 model to be crippled. It would have less dynamic range than its current specification. In the grand scheme of things, I'm asking for two changes: the Scarlet FF35 changes to MX and the Epic S35 either goes away or becomes a Monstro. Those two changes would clean up the product line and result in better products a more logical market arrangement.

Thoughts?

It sounds like you are thinking about the RED lineup strictly from a rental perspective and I don't think our ability to rent to cameras is RED's number one priority. Given, if we can make money from the cameras we are more likely to buy more.

Plenty of people will buy a RED to make their own projects without the intention of competing for jobs in the market. A Monstro sensor for $9,750 is an out of this world deal if you want to buy a camera to make a feature film.

If I am producing a project I want the best camera for the least amount of money. Again, the Monstro Scarlet would be the obvious choice.

It may make it harder for EPIC owners to make money off of their cameras but it will allow better images to be made for cheaper. If I had to guess, I think this is RED's goal.

I plan on owning at least 4 EPICs so I understand where you are coming from, but I also plan on having a couple Scarlets for producing pet projects.

 

[Tom Lowe]

Here's the way I see it.

Right now, the product lines conflict. Scarlet has grown too big for its britches and will dominate Epic's market.

Let Jim worry about that. Order the camera that best suits your needs.

I hope no one is trying to talk Jim into crippling any cameras.