Announcing WEAPON DRAGON 6k Magnesium

[Terry VerHaar]

If Weapon CF can do 4K ProRes (as indicated) it's certainly capable of 4K output. Only thing missing is a HDMI 2.0 transmitter.
I really hope for an expander module with 4K output and 10-Gig Ethernet. Would love to get a comment from RED on this...

We should be clear that Weapon doing 4K ProRes has NOT been officially announced.

 

[Elsie N]

Agree with that. And it's amazing to see this is actually a real discussion - with Jim, Jarred, RED taking notes and considering ideas. Thats great, everytime, again and again.


Let's face it, everyone wants that VV-sensor, because thats what will have the biggest impact on footage.

But for now it's just the top-tier who gets access to that - and thats the difference to the sensor-upgrades in the past, especially if you look at the move from MX to Dragon-6k, which was even accessible for Scarlet-owners.

I guess thats lots of people didn't expect.

I would point out that the delayed upgrade to Epic had a "top tier" group called Epic M. Then the Dragon upgrade had first-serve top-tierers called Carbon Dragon.

CF Weapon 8k is following in the same footsteps. The problem is, even though the Mag Weapon 8k will eventually be enabled, early info is saying that will cost more (or at least as much) as the early adopter CF Weapon 8k.

It just seems being in second tier should come with a Moore's Law type lower price.

 

[Jae Solina]

They haven't said this won't happen, but reading all of the subtext regarding the 8K upgrade and the carbon fiber itself, you'd need to be on the CF boat to migrate to 8K and beyond. Magnesium is a lesser-expensive Weapon that does not appear to have a future beyond. *As always subject to RED-change.

3 weeks.

 

[Jarred Land]

Hi Jarred,

thank you very much for all the Informative Updates, that helps understanding on what the different Weapon Upgrade Options actually really mean in the long term, and we need to know to plan the future!
And with these Infos it makes all Sense now and we can plan ahead.

As you mentioned a new EVF, one thing in that regard would also really help to plan ahead, if you possibly could share some insight on that or have that in mind for the Products Roadmap:

Will it support Native Refresh Rate Capabilities of 23.9p / 24p /25p / 48p /50p additionally to the common 29.9/59.9 ?
It would be a great deal if it could make it in the Product, because Operating Projects other than 29.9/59.9 is due to the Judder introduced currently very difficult - even most other reasonable 3rd Party Products can not support that currently - so it would fill a big hole of demand.

Hey Alexjentz.. yes we are working on supporting the addition native refresh rates. The new EVF is 1080p btw and it is pretty incredible.

 

[John Marchant]

Crossing my fingers that the new EVF is going to make my favourite wildlife shooters happy... Nothing out there by any manufacturer really does right now. Natural history shooting is a tough test for an EVF for various reasons.

 

[Mattias Åkerlind]

4k over HDMI is possible since 2009 / HDMI1.4 with up to 30fps @ 3840*2160, so probably even current EPIC/Scarlet could MAYBE in some way output 4k over HDMI (without scaling, just 1:1, when set to that resolution).

I highly doubt Weapon will be limited to 2k by hardware, software is probably not there yet. And i guess it is not one of the highest priorities for RED right now.

Yes, HDMI 1.4 supports 4K at 30 fps but I meant 50/60 fps. The important thing here is hardware support for 6K/8K full resolution debayering and then high quality scaling to 4K. Don't think the EPIC/Scarlet has that kind of processing power. Isn't playback only half res?

But if the Weapon CF can do 4K ProRes it must do just that "on the way" before compression stage. A 4K frame must then at some point be in memory ready to be output to SDI or HDMI. My question for Jarred is if the new expander modules have a HDMI 1.4 or 2.0 transmitter hardware? Any 6G/12G SDI?

And if the Weapon hardware is powerful enough to support a 10 Gigabit Ethernet PHY?

 

[Demetri Zuev]

But don't worry, the boards fit inside the 6k MG. When the 8K dragon sensor is ready, you will be able to keep the MG body and just upgrade the Boards and the Sensor to get the full 8K Carbon performance. It will cost more of course than going straight to 8K Carbon right now, but the performance will be the same and 6K and 8K will be the distinction, not just the material.

This actually turned my opinions a 180 degrees as I was sure that I need to go Carbon from now on. Turns out magnesium has a very bright future.

 

[Sulekh Suman]

I've asked this before, but wouldn't it lower overall cost if everyone upgraded to the EXACT SAME interiors and exteriors instead of keeping two lines of insides and two lines of exteriors? It seems much more complicated than it needs to be. Streamline the process and maybe you would be able to upgrade everyone to the Carbon Weapon at more or less the same price as the Magnesium version?

I completely agree with you Tony about operational efficiency. I would upgrade all three Dragons in a heartbeat to CF Weapon if it were available at MG Weapon upgrade price point. We don't need MG in the middle. Either launch/ announce a more affordable AL Weapon or provide CF Weapon at a price point where a lot of us will be able to afford and justify the investment thus eliminating the need for AL or MG Weapon altogether. The large volume will allow Red to broaden CF Weapon user base than making it a playground for a select few.

I make most of my money from a competing camera but I want to continue to stay invested in Red to support and grow the company as we go along. It's a company like no other. I just hope they would always keep their mass base at the forefront of their concern.

 

[ignition]

I completely agree with you Tony about operational efficiency. I would upgrade all three Dragons in a heartbeat to CF Weapon if it were available at MG Weapon upgrade price point. We don't need MG in the middle. Either launch/ announce a more affordable AL Weapon or provide CF Weapon at a price point where a lot of us will be able to afford and justify the investment thus eliminating the need for AL or MG Weapon altogether. The large volume will allow Red to broaden CF Weapon user base than making it a playground for a select few.

I make most of my money from a competing camera but I want to continue to stay invested in Red to support and grow the company as we go along. It's a company like no other. I just hope they would always keep their mass base at the forefront of their concern.

'

Such a beautiful and earnest post.

It does seem Weapon, despite it's obvious benefits, has probably fragmented the RED user base more so than any upgrade path offered since R1? We're on the Dragon > CF Weapon pathway but couldn't find the $10k to immediately secure the 8K sensor upgrade. I don't think we're alone. Overall sentiment seems to indicate some pretty significant fragmentation across the Scarlet/Epic (Dragon) owner family?

 

[alexjentz]

Hey Alexjentz.. yes we are working on supporting the addition native refresh rates. The new EVF is 1080p btw and it is pretty incredible.

Brilliant! That is going to get a lot of love from Users, Operators + DoPs, and we now definitely know we won't have to Invest in other Solutions, but reserve it for this Upgrade to come, staying with a RED Native EVF!

Thanks a lot for clearing that specific Question up, Jarred!

as John said: No Manufacturer currently gets it all the way right, and we would love to see RED do it right as so many times before.

native Refresh Rates + 1080p + incredible sounds really fantastic, if it also gets a good Field of View for Operating and Focus (not too small, not too big, a well balanced Ratio like in the newest 3rd Party Products ) a good Gamma/Contrast and Color then we really have the Basic Ingredients for that Perfect EVF!

From my point of view it would also not be so much a Problem if had a higher Cost then the Current ones, cause i know a 1080p one is really hard to make, but it's worth it for when a Production can afford it and wants it.
And if you keep the Current Bomb line for if you have to be more Budget Conscious but still a good EVF its perfect.

If the Native Frame Rate Capability at some Point trickles Down to the Touchscreens (if it has not already with the new 7", did not Test that yet, correct me if i am wrong ) via Firmware or Weapon Circuits Capability that would be another Bonus for the Future.

 

[Ketch Rossi]

Yes I said it even before the announcement, The Carbon Weapon is not just for looks. The insides are dramatically faster... they need to be to be able to keep up with 8K. We don't have hard specs because we still are squeezing. We are at 8K 5:1 @ 24fps right now on 8K dragon.

But don't worry, the boards fit inside the 6k MG. When the 8K dragon sensor is ready, you will be able to keep the MG body and just upgrade the Boards and the Sensor to get the full 8K Carbon performance. It will cost more of course than going straight to 8K Carbon right now, but the performance will be the same and 6K and 8K will be the distinction, not just the material.

NOW... This I love!!

When first stated of the Superiority of the CF Weapon, I said that my decision to go CF was made easier, just because I of course wanted all the Horsepower and 8k Sensor to become available the Weapon...

And on the 13th night I freaked out, and just pre-order one of everything ha ha!!


At NAB I saw the CF in person and it is just an awesome design!!

Then I saw your personalized FORGED CF Weapon and it is an awesome design times XX!!


But after the confirmation of the possibility to get the Magnesium Weapon up to speed in Horsepower and 8k sensor, I find my decision making DONE with it, as I simply just absolutely LOVE Magnesium, and I personally find the all Black look of the Weapon Magnesium a perfect look, especially with the new designs of the Writings and logos on it...

And yes, current finances of course play a big role on any decision making as well... As the CF + 8k deal is an absurdly Generous and Fantastic Deal that NO ONE with the finances in place should IMO pass on it!!


PS: My absurd love for Magnesium will become more evident as time moves on...


I also like to add that this year's NAB experience at the RED booth was as exhilarating as ever!!

 

[Phil Moreton]

Do we know the weight spec of the WMD or WCFD yet?
Magnesium on average is meant to be 33% lighter so will be exciting to find out the weight.
I imagine it will be about the same as there are a few added features compared to the Epic.

 

[Joe Kleber]

Do we know the weight spec of the WMD or WCFD yet?
Magnesium on average is meant to be 33% lighter so will be exciting to find out the weight.
I imagine it will be about the same as there are a few added features compared to the Epic.

http://www.reduser.net/forum/showthread.php?128381-RED-WEAPON-Info-and-Data-Sheets

...bottom of the 1st post.

 

[Kevin Marshall]

I completely agree with you Tony about operational efficiency. I would upgrade all three Dragons in a heartbeat to CF Weapon if it were available at MG Weapon upgrade price point. We don't need MG in the middle. Either launch/ announce a more affordable AL Weapon or provide CF Weapon at a price point where a lot of us will be able to afford and justify the investment thus eliminating the need for AL or MG Weapon altogether. The large volume will allow Red to broaden CF Weapon user base than making it a playground for a select few.

I make most of my money from a competing camera but I want to continue to stay invested in Red to support and grow the company as we go along. It's a company like no other. I just hope they would always keep their mass base at the forefront of their concern.

Getting rid of the Mg Weapon in favor of only CF ones doesn't necessarily mean lower price - volume isn't the only factor in pricing. If the boards/processors are what make up the cost difference like Jarred says, then it's quite possible that the boards in the Mg Weapon are just lower-binned versions of the CF boards - like pretty much every line of processors (including Epic/Scarlet). So eliminating the Mg Weapon would probably increase the CF Weapon's price, because RED would have to eat more cost in lower yields.

As for an Al version, we don't have any indication that an aluminum Weapon would substantially lower the price, regardless of which boards were put in. RED (I wanna say Jarred) said that the larger price difference between the Al and CF Epics was due to recouping the initial R&D for their CF process, and that their process has since matured. So it's possible that an aluminum Weapon would only slightly lower the price, if at all.

 

[egon touste]

James, no one has to upgrade, it is an option.

exactly ..people who have been through 2 previous red upgrades, some people 3, starting from the red one..obviously they aren't interested in keeping up with the latest tech.

now that red are starting to get better at making cameras , its natural many would lose interest in upgrading, and the upgrades are afterall only for people interested in quieter fans, prores, cleaner electronics, and future upgrades, 8k and avoiding irritating black shading / timewasting .. so that rules most epic owners out..

..so pleased i handed over $10k for dragon a couple of months back.. so that i can buy a new box for basically the same camera functions.. at a very reasonable price

i would have preferred to recieve accurate information about future upgrades beyond dragon asap, before i dived in, and not to fit around a trade show .. but the stakes are high for us renters.. so its a gamble..but why?

it seems red have a big problem allowing people to make an informed decision at times that suit them

i feel its time certain industry practices disappeared. i will never go to NAB . it has nothing to do with my life, unlike my cameras, and business sttrategies to rent them (in a market that prefers ARRI)

tell me brent, does weapon use the same sensor i just paid $10k for in weapon, or does weapon use a new variant of dragon (ie, has new mounting boards etc like was the case with r1mx and epic-x), making the "necessary dragon upgrade " merely a pointless markketing ploy to disappoint many customers ?

 

[Chad Lancaster]

Does the upgrades come with a side plate incase you don't want to use the sidekick?