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  • Hey all, just changed over the backend after 15 years I figured time to give it a bit of an update, its probably gonna be a bit weird for most of you and i am sure there is a few bugs to work out but it should kinda work the same as before... hopefully :)

Announcing RED RAVEN

From my uneducated view:
Raven - clearly the value leader now. If you are shooting and delivering 4K @24fps this is a 98% solution for 15% of the cost of Weapon
Scarlet - No Idea where this camera sits in the line or who it is targeting. What was that NAB trade-up all about if Raven was on the way?
Dragon - With Raven, it is now way overpriced and therefore the resale value will dropped a bunch. Again, not sure who this is currently targeting since it is neither a high value nor the highest performance product. Without the heavy upgrade cost to Weapon it is EOL.
Monochrome Dragon - seems to also be EOL since no 8K upgrade path has been announced
Weapon - Rental market and feature films

Seems that RED now has the lowest and highest new customers taken care of, at the asset value cost of the middle existing customers. Very confusing for now, but I'm sure RED has a way to make it right for those of us who bought in early and often. Would love to see RED's 1-3-5 year plan for products.
 
Because several people asked for it: FOOTAGE 4K Dragon 5:1 compression because my crusty old Scarlet Dragon can't go lower unlike the sexy new bitch Raven. Sorry Red to hijack your thread with all the comments this footage will generate about how damn cute my dogs are. Footage will be up for one week.

http://we.tl/zL4SgbacdR

http://we.tl/0lur0SjA6N

http://we.tl/FHXVo3KcXJ

Or

https://www.wetransfer.com/downloads/20e1f8efd96aeb3fbce211ec52bf0fb820150925152238/673279138d9419d74f14b3d26d627c9f20150925152238/d9dc14

https://www.wetransfer.com/download...ad39d350f532e1ad7ac44a1a20150925155456/b06fb9

https://www.wetransfer.com/download...2b4844442547a60d45972c4120150925154203/539e0a
 
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Trent Lillehaugen said:
Touch will work. Brent mentioned that the old RED ONE monitors will also work with the adapter but those monitors don't have touch so you can't setup the camera solely with them.
Click to expand...


That 5.0" Touch just won't die...

Thank you very much

Fury
 
Zeb B said:
From my uneducated view:
Raven - clearly the value leader now. If you are shooting and delivering 4K @24fps this is a 98% solution for 15% of the cost of Weapon
Scarlet - No Idea where this camera sits in the line or who it is targeting. What was that NAB trade-up all about if Raven was on the way?
Dragon - With Raven, it is now way overpriced and therefore the resale value will dropped a bunch. Again, not sure who this is currently targeting since it is neither a high value nor the highest performance product. Without the heavy upgrade cost to Weapon it is EOL.
Monochrome Dragon - seems to also be EOL since no 8K upgrade path has been announced
Weapon - Rental market and feature films

Seems that RED now has the lowest and highest new customers taken care of, at the asset value cost of the middle existing customers. Very confusing for now, but I'm sure RED has a way to make it right for those of us who bought in early and often. Would love to see RED's 1-3-5 year plan for products.
Click to expand...

I see it wildly differently.

The RED Dragon Camera Line-up as of 2015.


[table="width: 800"]
[tr]
[td]Camera Brain Models[/td]
[td]Max Motion Res[/td]
[td]Max Still Res[/td]
[td]DSMC Body Type[/td]
[td]Internal Data Transfer Rate[/td]
[/tr]
[tr]
[td]RAVEN[/td]
[td]4K[/td]
[td]4K[/td]
[td]DSMC²[/td]
[td]140MB/s[/td]
[/tr]
[tr]
[td]SCARLET[/td]
[td]5K[/td]
[td]6K[/td]
[td]OG DSMC[/td]
[td]72MB/s[/td]
[/tr]
[tr]
[td]EPIC[/td]
[td]6K[/td]
[td]6K[/td]
[td]OG DSMC[/td]
[td]200MB/s[/td]
[/tr]
[tr]
[td]WEAPON 6K MG[/td]
[td]6K[/td]
[td]6K[/td]
[td]DSMC²[/td]
[td]225MB/s[/td]
[/tr]
[tr]
[td]WEAPON 6K Woven CF/Forged CF[/td]
[td]6K[/td]
[td]6K[/td]
[td]DSMC²[/td]
[td]300MB/s[/td]
[/tr]
[tr]
[td]WEAPON 8K Woven CF/Forged CF[/td]
[td]8K[/td]
[td]8K[/td]
[td]DSMC²[/td]
[td]300MB/s[/td]
[/tr]
[/table]
 
Alexander Thomson said:
No chill. :rofl:



P3w1Hmt.png
Click to expand...

I get the sense this was very therapeutic for someone to make haha
 
Doug Laurent said:
This announcement is good news for all who still need a Red camera.
And a bit sad news for all who already own and rent out two Red Epic/Dragon cameras like me and lost thousands of dollars in worth and income over night.
It will be a huge success for Red though, and it will have good longterm impacts for any Red user.
I will be excited the day when a lowlight sensor is announced and will upgrade to that, as only that will lead to different image results a client or consumer will be able to see.
Click to expand...

Sorry it may just be me, but I don't see this line of thought about having lost money? Im not out to make or start an argument, I like RED, Dragon, Weapon, Epic, Raven - the cameras and the sensor tech are amazing. But your Epic Dragon is just as good as it was yesterday - it will still outshine Raven, because of 5K, 6K and true 4K filming at anything other than FF. Plus you can swap the mounts, use Luts, etc... If people just want 4K, then other than Red RAW ( I accept that is a big difference over the competition ) then your just as well with Panasonic or Sony - and thats no put down to RED, each to their own. In my experience people choose RED for the quality, colour science, the ability to film higher resolution than they want, either for editing, or so the footage is available waaaay into the future, because its a higher resolution. I guess if it was me, I would be asking myself, yes some rental customers may now want/demand Raven, but how many of those would have made the jump to your Epic Dragon?

I love the RED concept, ideas and principals, but I'm not a RED fanboy - i'll go with whatever works in the price range, be that Sony, Panasonic, Arri, BM etc.. To me, the Raven is a huge step forward and i've no doubts it will disrupt somethings, but the lack of Nikon or PL means its not an option for me or the company that I work for. We need the higher 5K/6K (and hopefully soon 8K) resolution, thats fine, just means that we are not the market segment (like a lot of other producers and camera crews) that RAVEN is aimed at. But your Epic/Dragon is still worth its value for all the things you can do with it, that you cannot do with a Raven - and lets be honest, Raven is great, but for a lot of (valid reasons - and to hit the price points) its lacking in some areas. Thats fine, different models and abilities create choice and range, that has to be a good thing.

On the other side, congratulations to everyone involved - moves like this are always beneficial to everyone in the long run especially if they open up new markets, develop new technology, and/or bring down costs.
 
What is the general consensus on the 4.7 vs 7 touch monitor in terms of quality/functionality? Traditionally I have proffered the added real estate of my O7Q but curious what you guys think.

Also, already placed a pre-order for the i/o package, would it be possible to swap the 4.7 for the 7 and pay the difference?
 
sam karr said:
I think that was the case for the scarlet mx no?
After 1st of january of the launch period it was more expensive.
In the case of the Raven it's different I guess, 10000$ is a psychological pricing point.
Click to expand...

Correct Prices went up on the Scarlet-X with MX Sensor

I paid $9800 at launch and wanna say it went up to $11900 then a lucky few got a BT Version for $7100....Something like that

NoFilmSchoolArticle
 
I said this in the other thread, but if they have other mount options, you could literally buy three Raven Brains (PL, EF, and Nikon, for example) for the cost of *one* Scarlet-Dragon brain and the three mounts seperately... That's kind of ridiculous given how much more future tech Raven has built-in (wifi, DSMC2, weight savings, 120fps, RC3:1, etc.)

...just sayin'.
 
Nick Morrison said:
Listen, for those who invested upwards of $40-50K on Epic Dragon packages (whether new, or via upgrades, etc)...the RAVEN price point is certainly startling.

And most likely, resale values of Epic Dragon's will drop ($17K/package?)...as will their day rates.

Now of course, many of these owners have probably paid off their cameras many times over. I know I did.

But the entire RED ecosystem has changed. While I celebrate everyone getting a RAVEN, I also understand the trepidation of many who have invested so much already...to get to a relatively similar place.

I upgraded to Epic Dragon 6 months ago. I've spent $35K on that brain alone (Scarlet to Epic to Epic Dragon). And it can't autoblackshade or do Prores. And I still face a $17 upgrade to Weapon Magnesium. And I've done all of this in just 2 years.

So I'm looking at $52K for Magnesium Weapon vs $6K Raven.

I love Raven, but at this point...I'm not sure I can fully justify Weapon Magnesium...no matter how much I want it.

So I celebrate the future. While I tremble at where I am.
Click to expand...

Nick in terms of financials I think many have spent the same. Jarred more or less said they have more up their sleeve's. I can't do MG or the CF option myself at the current price either. I don't think they're even close to done.

Personally I'm hoping for something similar to the Raven, with maybe higher resolution that will still allow for the trade in value that stands on the current Weapon cameras.

Worst case you still have a 6K camera that weighs just 5 lbs. Not much of a negative in my book. And if 4K is all you need then just down grade. I've certainly considered it. But i'm gonna wait for the Raven to start shipping to see if there are any other options personally.
 
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I can just see it now... sometime in the future RAVEN owners will be lighting up these boards saying "Why can't we have X for RAVEN like you did for Scarlet oweners?
 
Zeb B said:
From my uneducated view:
Raven - clearly the value leader now. If you are shooting and delivering 4K @24fps this is a 98% solution for 15% of the cost of Weapon
Scarlet - No Idea where this camera sits in the line or who it is targeting. What was that NAB trade-up all about if Raven was on the way?
Dragon - With Raven, it is now way overpriced and therefore the resale value will dropped a bunch. Again, not sure who this is currently targeting since it is neither a high value nor the highest performance product. Without the heavy upgrade cost to Weapon it is EOL.
Monochrome Dragon - seems to also be EOL since no 8K upgrade path has been announced
Weapon - Rental market and feature films

Seems that RED now has the lowest and highest new customers taken care of, at the asset value cost of the middle existing customers. Very confusing for now, but I'm sure RED has a way to make it right for those of us who bought in early and often. Would love to see RED's 1-3-5 year plan for products.
Click to expand...

I think many people overestimate the Raven when they think the Weapon is overpriced now. It's for sure a super nice camera. But not at all in the same league as an Epic or a Weapon. Most of them probably never used the different models to compare.
I was super happy with 4k on my Scarlet MX and thought it was enough for everything, 5k was overkill blabla. Until i had the Scarlet D. Now I don't want to go back. 5k is great, S35 sensor size is great, 6K for stills is great. I almost never use 4k on it because with a sensor of 20mm wide, dragon type, @ 13:1 for HFR, the noise is there and it's less pretty than 5:1 for sure.
5k looks really better than 4k, I tried 6k @ 12fps and it's insane. I will probably get a Raven as a bcam for cleaner 60fps, weight and technology but I still think the differences in prices are there for a reason.
 
Now that the servers have chilled out I can finally log into my RED account

So my Deposit didn't go through in my Open Orders but Red is still holding $1 on my Bank Account lol

Not sure what happened here
 
Jeffrey Loewe said:
I've toss an offer out as well. Here is some Dragon 4K 120 FPS footage. Please don't repost anywhere. RedCode 12:1.

http://we.tl/Sv2wNgazQQ
Click to expand...

Thanks for posting, before I download (it's a pretty big file on my connection!) how close do you think this looks to what the footage off the Raven will look like. I say that because on other forums some people are saying that on a chopped down Dragon sensor @13:1 120fps is going to be super noisy and that really the camera at 4K is good for 60fps not 120???
For me the appeal of the camera and what makes it unique for the price is the high frame rate at 4K but if footage is noisy?????
 
What I still think is a bit of a bummer is the mount.
It cant be that much cheaper to make it with fixed ef mount than like the epic with swapable mount.
i think the ef mount is whats holding me back from buying this.
I got an ef mount for epic and i like ef glass and see all the benefits with the electronics and so on. But if it could take a pl mount, fd mount leica mount and so on, even if they where all low cost dumb mounts this camera would be just so much more. But i guess its to differentiate it from the scarlets. But it must be cheaper to make 4 screwholes and swapable mount than fixed mount.
So i hope there is a raven 2 with removed front comming :)
 
I know this has already been asked, but no one has answered yet. Will the Raven have HDRx capability @ 4k? I would assume with 3:1 @ 24 and 120fps this would be possible, but I just need confirmation from someone at Red? Thanks!
 
Nick Morrison said:
Listen, for those who invested upwards of $40-50K on Epic Dragon packages (whether new, or via upgrades, etc)...the RAVEN price point is certainly startling.


And most likely, resale values of Epic Dragon's will drop ($17K/package?)...as will their day rates.


So I celebrate the future. While I tremble at where I am.
Click to expand...

Fear not young pigeon, the ravens shall fly as one and shelter thy wounded dragon.
 
Iain Philpott said:
Thanks for posting, before I download (it's a pretty big file on my connection!) how close do you think this looks to what the footage off the Raven will look like. I say that because on other forums some people are saying that on a chopped down Dragon sensor @13:1 120fps is going to be super noisy and that really the camera at 4K is good for 60fps not 120???
For me the appeal of the camera and what makes it unique for the price is the high frame rate at 4K but if footage is noisy?????
Click to expand...

Well I shoot plenty of 4K on a 6K sensor and don't have any issues when I shoot 4K. The shot is slightly over-exposed but the weather was in and out so it'll give you a good idea of what you can do in terms of pulling it down/back a bit. It's a hazy day in the snow. From my understanding it's a 4K sensor cut not a crop. I think you'll be fine.

I might be alone here but I think personally people focus way to much on the negatives of the footage. A few days ago people were saying if they shoot 12:1 they lose details in trees in the distance etc. I've shot plenty on MX and on Dragon and i've never had issues with high compression on any RED i've shot. Obviously it's not as clean as 5:1, but you find ways to make it work.
 
sam karr said:
I think many people overestimate the Raven when they think the Weapon is overpriced now. It's for sure a super nice camera. But not at all in the same league as an Epic or a Weapon. Most of them probably never used the different models to compare.
I was super happy with 4k on my Scarlet MX and thought it was enough for everything, 5k was overkill blabla. Until i had the Scarlet D. Now I don't want to go back. 5k is great, S35 sensor size is great, 6K for stills is great. I almost never use 4k on it because with a sensor of 20mm wide, dragon type, @ 13:1 for HFR, the noise is there and it's less pretty than 5:1 for sure.
5k looks really better than 4k, I tried 6k @ 12fps and it's insane. I will probably get a Raven as a bcam for cleaner 60fps, weight and technology but I still think the differences in prices are there for a reason.
Click to expand...




I too think that it is premature to look sadly at the Epic Dragon sitting in the corner with its tail between its legs. So much is really going to depend on the type of work you like to do, and what arena you play in. There are two factors. Personal taste as a film-maker. The professional demands of TV and movie production. For narrative the Epic Dragon as a downscale to 4K from 5K, 5.5K and 6K is where the pros live. I am not making TV shows for Netflix etc but I know people who are and who test and this is where they say the Dragon shines. For my own work I have seen the same to be true. Downscaled 5-6K for 4 or lower is tight. It is the kitty.

Raven does not knock that off its perch by a mile and if you were going to do a narrative for Netflix lets say. Wouldn't you, as they, want the best for your project? Of course you would. And that would be Dragon and slowly the Weapon.

Raven shines as a contender for different kinds of work. It is an alternative to Ursa, Sony and Canon or Arri. But the key word is alternative. Red has a look. I like it. Many here love it. But out in the jungle of production it is one flavor of many. Some like the looks of other sensors. They see them as more luminous, crisper, realer, truer, pretty colors etc etc.... They are not wrong. And Red has its thing going and its excellent in my opinion.

I think Raven is great play by Red as it draws people into their new ecosystem. In sheer dollars I think is a smart play by them in a highly competitive field. Raven owners are getting something really special. But they will covet the next step, and the next. Because if we are all honest we know Dragon 6K is great. Weapon 8K will be nuts. Raven will eat Dragons lunch on small projects where the Raven will be perceived as the new toy, and Dragon to be overkill. But Dragon is the better tool and until well into middle or end of next year is going to have thin competition.

I am with many that the difference between the Raven capability and the MG as next rung, is a bit absurd. Especially now. And if Raven has got any type of dark side, it is that it has delivered so much for so cheap that it makes the Weapon MG look crazy. Fully kitted cam in new DSMC with pro rez at 3:1 4K for under 10. And then for a Dragon owner to get their sensor into a new body is multiples of this 3-4 times actually. I think Red will adjust with time as it becomes ever more flush with Raven sales. At least that is my hope.

Meanwhile owning an Epic Dragon is not the saddest story that ever was. Except that perhaps people who came new to Epic paid the most for the Red privilege.
 
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