An Offer to Disgruntled Filmmakers Who Feel They Missed Out on a Cheap SCARLET....

[JPSendall]

This is actually some what similar as to what I was hoping to turn my company/website into:
http://www.makethemoviehappen.com/ after I finish the current project we're trying to raise money for.

It would basically be film development/production fund + and networking site. Here's a brief overview of what it'll become: http://www.makethemoviehappen.com/index.php?funding

That seems geared more to financing which I applaud whereas what I am suggesting is just a connecting base for projects and talent/resources. Also if you don't mind my saying your website is choc full of ads which I think gives a negative impression. The look and feel was more like this I think.

https://shootingpeople.org/account/auth.php

The thing is I think it would be great if you put your name in to the database with all the added details such as skills and resources and then every so often you receive an email with a list of developing projects that are looking for specifically what you do and what you have. That's all. No forum as I feel people might start criticising other peoples projects and that's not what this would be about.

Oh and I think it should be entirely free.

 

[Detlev Eller]

... great !

... here is some thinking on various points made in prior posts, without quoting them ....



huge database ... Sure.

... it needs not only a database (any application storing values has one), it needs logic, usability and a powerful architecture - open to the unknown future ... ;-)
to handle and support our thinking process .... the idea of "information at your fingertips" has not been executed to well so far, but is what we need.

This means, the information must be available and actionable in the way WE THINK, ... NOT to make us think in the way, a limited approach of software development wants to dictate us ... ;-) ...

it is an integrated process. thinking, data, execution, measuring, reports, task lists, simple presentation, results - driven by creativity and application.

... i think, one of the major problems of software today is, that it creates a FRAGMENTED world, in a fragmented workflow - information is lost, ultimately.
It furthermore creates tons of redundancy and energy and focus is lost. Saving human brain cycles and freeing up efficiency and enabling us "to work in the zone" for prolonged periods of time ... is a fundamental driver and motivator for my work.

I guess, most developers are either not aware of the complexities or afraid or unable of approaching them - anyhow, it is my sincere belief, we need integrated systems with an onion type of style to reveal functionalities, right when we need them .... not a minute before ... ;-)


A platform, to ORGANIZE collaborative filmmaking is COMPLEX and must feel SIMPLE.

It needs to address planning, sourcing, booking, feedback on quality .... (as production related)
and the creative parts ... to shape from what is given ... which is the ultimate guerilla approach.

The secret is, to create such a "thing" without being overwhelming. No use in a huge database, when there is no way to make use of the data and give meaning to it.
In order to be actionable, it needs a clear view, a clear path of "interaction with the system", that adopts to the individual .... the "system" must be invisible.


then, important points made:

Legalities are an evident issue. (and it is a big one)

Privacy is, too.

Real Names are fundamental, since no trustworthy human relationship can be build without referring to people by their name.

Trust is fundamental. Abuse most be prevented and policed.

It´s probably a good approach, to have a PUBLIC FRONT with basic information on projects, talent, service, gear available .... (may be free)
as well as a PRODUCTION ZONE - membership area ... which is accessible to verified members only .... (think ID verification and membership fee)

... so, this was the morning thinking ....

looking forward to more of you joining the discussion

cheers,
Detlev

 

[Detlev Eller]

... Oh and I think it should be entirely free.

... lol ... not sure ... ;-) ... let´s rethink:

professional attitude has room for time saving, quality improving tools ...
which needs to be created by someone ... or many thereof ....

Everything in the world should be free ... ) ... but nothing is.

We need to get rid of this "free ride" approach ... its not healthy.

 

[JPSendall]

Everything in the world should be free ... ) ... but nothing is.

We need to get rid of this "free ride" approach ... its not healthy.

You're behind a bit there

http://www.wired.com/techbiz/it/magazine/16-03/ff_free?currentPage=all

 

[JPSendall]

And it's very healthy.

 

[Detlev Eller]

You're behind a bit there

http://www.wired.com/techbiz/it/magazine/16-03/ff_free?currentPage=all

JP ... i appreciate your comment .... lol ....

i am familiar with the work of Chris Anderson ... the point of his being, that a free front end is attracting/funneling many into the profit making back end .... excellent marketing strategy, for certain products and services.

But that is not relevant to my point - which is:

Paying to be part of something, creates quality in the participating community.

If you throw a party, and invite anyone ... open to public ....
it is certainly a different experience to having a fine selection,
of motivated guests ....

... discussions are immediately right on the point ...
rather then wading through wild noise ....

 

[JPSendall]

This is an open and free forum and I see a lot of professionalism here. Of course there are some who spoil it but they don't last very long.

The only thing I thought would be good would be to charge a nominal fee, say one dollar. Pay it with a verified Paypal account or credit card so that we know who you really are.

There won't be noise very much at all since the database will be pretty precise and the projects that are sent out to people on the database will have to define their needs precisely as well.

This needs to start in a small way but well thought out. We don't really need to think about expansion or the future. That will sort itself out as we progress. So keep it simple, keep it easy and inexpensive to run. I don't see how we have to do much more than that.

 

[Detlev Eller]

This is an open and free forum and I see a lot of professionalism here. Of course there are some who spoil it but they don't last very long.....

true. reduser is free to use - but not free of user investments - and definitely not free of cost ... it has sponsors.
People familiar with the forum, have a chance to look for Jarred´s recent posts regarding the topic ...

in terms of community - reduser is very special. i don´t know of any other public forum / community, that has this quality of members.
reduser is a group of self selected people, that choose to belief in a technology, way before it came to market.

Its the same group of people that support and use the technology against all kind of obstacles.
These are bonding factors. These "investments" make the community special as is.

It´s getting noisy though. And that is a consequence of having a lower priced product attracting a different set of people.

We wouldn´t expect the FIAT UNO fans to show up in a Bentley showroom - regularily ... would we?
No comparison to any product intended here, just an example to emphasize "filters of interest" at work.


In terms of film collaboration ... my interest, my goal, my contribution would be, to help to get the "real stars" together. people that are inspired. people that want to make happen. people that "want to make happen" so much, that they invest in it.

Clear signal. Little noise.

simple.

---

... We don't really need to think about expansion or the future.That will sort itself out as we progress. So keep it simple, keep it easy and inexpensive to run. I don't see how we have to do much more than that ....

... which is exactly why the internet as we have it today SUCKS so much.
It is boring. pale. doesn´t work in big parts and is full of noise ... driven (and dominated) by technicians fumbling around with improvised approaches that know nothing about design, user experience modeling or psychology for that matter... its a mess.
( ... and i don´t want to go deeper into it ...)


The plan, the architecture of "the web" was well done, though. Excellent i would say. We have some "free" software packages building the foundation of wider parts of the web: PHP, MySQL, APACHE, ... excellent stuff!

Then it went berserk when suddenly every one and his dog jumped on the next hot opportunity in the bubble .... and thinking about the future implications fell sideways. With that, the core quality of the free idea, was diluted and tons of rubbish came to emerge - which sadly enough, became the standard process on the web. (since every other is copying from the first ... ;-)


---

For me, it all starts with user experience - providing value.
I don´t rush. I take responsibility.

There is plenty of "free" out in the world, good luck to anyone wanting to wade through the implications of it and wasting tons of time to make it work.
"End of Lane" ... is already hardcoded into this approach.

I prefer a value oriented approach (which may include free services) but must work economically .... not hopefully ... ;-)
I like the idea of filters, a lot.

usually,
Free for one or many comes with a cost for someone or many. very simple.


now add security, reliability, scaling and maintenance ... and free has just gone out of the window.

In general, I think, it is highly disrespectful to any creator, to ask for all free, as in free music, free movies, free software, free everything ... as a premise ... or "the only way to go" ... it appears to be a modern disease .... (or evolution??)

The more i think about this, the more i see that free is not the way to go to achieve a quality foundation for a highly productive network. It needs to be a mix of "free" and "inner circle".

the beauty of this approach is, that whoever resents the thought of paying for quality product and service (same as the difference in mindset from "disgruntled 3k SCARLET prospect with scattered dreams" vs. "early 58K EPIC-M Supporters" ... ) - the beauty is, that one crowd will gather at the free place ... chit chat about this and that .... and keep the other party with the paying guest move forward in a focused fashion.

Any professional conference of importance in the world of today,
has high 3-4 figure ticket prices ...

... which is why highly skilled people flock to them, travel to be part of them. they expect their peers to be taking part there as well - in the majority.
These folks, including myself, have better things to do in life than getting lost in the "cheap and free" life style.

Then,
Legal and ethics and respect are big issues in anything online - and anything business for that matter.

Just a funny side note ... ;-)
Just imagine, someone "invents" the universal space saga ... and build an entire galaxy where infinite stories could evolve .... ;-))
What would George say? ....

... hehe ... ;-)

But seriously,
I appreciate and value your contribution.

I think "something" will come out of this ...
and there is probably space for different flavors ...

As far as http://filmcollaboration.org goes, i am thinking about a free profile, to participate and get in touch and in addition, have "qualifiers" for the inner circle ... to make sure everything is sound and healthy ...

 

[Detlev Eller]

.... One more thing to add. I think this kind of database is most helpful in the development of projects rather than the production ...

The information that is needed to "source" ... is the same that is needed to "produce" ... which makes it obvious to connect everything.
The vision i have for http://filmcollaboration.org covers the complete creation process ... from idea to audience.

It needs collaborative elements, for example:

roughly:
An inner circle is created, where only members of a project have access, via encrypted, secure access and protocols.

- A writer contributes his outline, scenes, maps out the overall story arches ...
- A Storyboard or animatic is connected, where fits.
- sound bits or musical ideas are dropped ....
- location and prop photography is dropped ...
- Director, Script analyst, Producer, VFX adds comments ...
that turn later on into direction
- Beats, emphasis, production notes, continuity, intensity and much more can be added ...
- a cool way to assemble previz is available....
- cost estimates are attached ...
- shooting plans, calling tables ...
- on set continuity .... have the continuity person use the ipad ... feed the system, know whats going on at all times ...
- hourlies are uploaded ...
- color grades swapped ...

... and so on and so forth ....

As i see it, it is a productivity tool with access to an integrated sourcing community.
We may as well refer to this as Computer Aided Film Collaboration ™ ... )

... i am thinking about this whole "filmmaking software thing" - on and off - for the last 20 years or so ....

I have been involved in different parts of production and fundamentally want to see better product - ultimately, i create this thing for myself, to organize my "auteur" efforts ... and would be honored and blessed, if it can help many film collaborators ..... i think it will be more valuable, the more "high spirit" people use and contribute to it ....

I agree, to having it started in a simple manner asap, by keeping a bigger benefit in mind ...
The goal is to ease the process of creation and raise the quality of films produced.

 

[Andrew McCarrick]

That seems geared more to financing which I applaud whereas what I am suggesting is just a connecting base for projects and talent/resources. Also if you don't mind my saying your website is choc full of ads which I think gives a negative impression. The look and feel was more like this I think.

You're right, that page I have regarding what will happen after we raise funds, for the current project, is more geared towards financing. But I have been thinking about also integrating a collaboration area; like you were describing.

 

[JPSendall]

roughly:
An inner circle is created, where only members of a project have access, via encrypted, secure access and protocols.

- A writer contributes his outline, scenes, maps out the overall story arches ...
- A Storyboard or animatic is connected, where fits.
- sound bits or musical ideas are dropped ....
- location and prop photography is dropped ...
- Director, Script analyst, Producer, VFX adds comments ...
that turn later on into direction
- Beats, emphasis, production notes, continuity, intensity and much more can be added ...
- a cool way to assemble previz is available....
- cost estimates are attached ...
- shooting plans, calling tables ...
- on set continuity .... have the continuity person use the ipad ... feed the system, know whats going on at all times ...
- hourlies are uploaded ...
- color grades swapped ...

... and so on and so forth ....

As i see it, it is a productivity tool with access to an integrated sourcing community.
We may as well refer to this as Computer Aided Film Collaboration ™ ... )

... i am thinking about this whole "filmmaking software thing" - on and off - for the last 20 years or so ....

I have been involved in different parts of production and fundamentally want to see better product - ultimately, i create this thing for myself, to organize my "auteur" efforts ... and would be honoured and blessed, if it can help many film collaborators ..... i think it will be more valuable, the more "high spirit" people use and contribute to it ....

I see what you're saying Detlev but that looks like to me a different idea altogether (have a look at scenechronize.com, thay have an online collaboration facility for groups within a project). I'm against inner circles too. I don't want to create an exclusive club. We see enough of those already.

Like I said in a recent post I helped a director out the other day by shooting some city scenes on my 5D, just the two of us going out and getting a bit of material to use in his motion comic. I didn't charge for it and it was an easy day to be honest. It's a simple thing. And now he's helping me out on a few more things of my own. This will go back and forth between us for quite a while I reckon. Now if I had connected with him through a database that sent me an email saying here is this director doing this project in London, synopsis, treatment, visuals, whatever - and he's looking for a 5D/7D to quickly shoot some stills and video on a Sunday then would I want to pay for that email? No I wouldn't, not because it's amateur but because we are doing each other a favour, because we are interested in each others work. It's not about money, it's about low level collaboration that might spark into something else later. That's the point I think I'm trying to clarify in my own mind. It needs to be productive and engaging with very little hassle, with no money involved.

I still disagree about noise. An email that is sent to me saying there is a director in London where I live, who wants to shoot some stuff with a 5D, which I've got, and do you want to help him out and here is his number. There's no noise there at all. You seem to be building something far more complex and ambitious. I'm thinking let's connect people who need each other in a simple way that requires very little management. Bingo, you have something actually quite valuable. Do you see what I mean? Forget forums for a while. Already I've said discussion's not the aim, it's about connection and action. Once people connect it's up to them what to do together...or not.

 

[Detlev Eller]

JP,

... first, please excuse my late reply .... i was busy setting up a secondary base in Berlin, to have a solid hub in the current global hotspot for internet startups ...

I agree with your points ...

As i have pointed out in the earlier posts, it would be great to have everyone with "film collaboration energy" in his body and mind be able to connect.
It would be excellent, to have a free signup part, with free services (as in connecting interests, or little favors, whatever) ... this part can be financed by advertising.

I like choice and options - a lot.

So, on bigger projects or secret ones, or if one is simply so inclined, one should be able to keep things private - and invite people into an inner circle, that is created for a given project ... and even within it, some have access to budgeting information where others may see story boards only or what not ... i am thinking about an integrated system, that allows us (filmmakers) to reach out to resources and talent of any kind ... allow the enormous public interest in this art form to join forces on no-budget and low-budget projects ... and so forth ....

still, as with any software, there are things on my mind, that are extremely valuable and timesaving. and those, with all due respect, as with any great deal, should be compensated at a great price. It´s up to each single one, to take advantage of these tools or not.

I certainly like the idea of honoring early supporters with even better deals - as we see here on the board exampled so generously (!)

there is this paradox with online software, that people want to use free software ... then it doesn´t work as expected ... or leads to a dead end and a terrible waste of time (and money, to hire technicians to fix things .... btw) ... and folks start blaming the developers, that actually donated their free life time to create the thing in the first place .... the right word is: ridiculous.

me, has invested a HUGE amount of money, into developing the core platform, that allows me to create such a complex thing.
Although, the philantrophist in me would love to give it to the world and improve it a little bit, the economist sees a clear need for significant cashflow, that is demanded by durability and secure operations. (just google the operative cost of free youtube)

This software project - 7 years of focused coding - has set me back so much, that i couldn´t get an early EPIC-M when i was given the opportunity to order ....
which is extremely painful to me, trust me.

 

[JPSendall]

Ok Detlev, I think I see where you are coming from. Sounds like you've been working hard on it so what is holding you back taking it further? Money? Opportunity? I wouldn't even dream of asking to donate your code for free so I really think you should press ahead with whatever structure/service/mechanism you are intending to produce. However can I ask if your software can do what I have previously stated. That is a database of resources and talent that is centrally housed and when a producer or director wants help on a project the server automatically generates the email to only those relevant to the project according to the data it has, including geographical location?

I would think that is surely a simple script and wouldn't need to cover all the bases you are intending to cover? Have you had a look at Scenechronize yet?

 

[Milan Nikolic]

Meriem you are the man!

 

[Detlev Eller]

Ok Detlev, I think I see where you are coming from. Sounds like you've been working hard on it so what is holding you back taking it further? Money? Opportunity? I wouldn't even dream of asking to donate your code for free so I really think you should press ahead with whatever structure/service/mechanism you are intending to produce.

... its a mix of things coming into play. the most important one being my desire to do it right, so people can enjoy using it ...

However can I ask if your software can do what I have previously stated. That is a database of resources and talent that is centrally housed and when a producer or director wants help on a project the server automatically generates the email to only those relevant to the project according to the data it has, including geographical location?

... here we have several layers of complexities. It basically comes down to a "safe" way to get the data into the system (which has to do with intuitive, relevant, clean user interface and good database design) ... and a simple way to browse through the data, which is done with tags and filters ....

subscribing to updates by feed, mail or SMS is no problem. But then, sending SMS messages would be a premium feature, since there is direct cost involved. I think, messaging - on various channels - is a central theme to coordinating production efforts.

... i would agree, that geo location and radius filtering would be an obvious feature, but it is quite complex, to do it right, one has to dig into "shortest path" mathematics and so forth ... which is worth spending some months time on ... and the geo data needs to be reliable ... basing it on postal codes, rather than map data makes it difficult to adapt worldwide ... so, this must be something that comes further down the road, with adoption and team building income. I think, with Googles Map APIs, one could build a nice mesh up ... but still, i would want to see the development in mobile and then, have a team member coding this ... focus.

... simple ideas, simply executable with "the fun factor" .... take a lot of resources to get right.

thanks for your input ...

cheers,
Detlev

 

[Zeb B]

So you have the Great American Movie you want to make. Only RED smashed your dream to smithereens by pricing SCARLET out of your reach.

This should not be a stopper. But let's just say that access to REDCODE, RAW, 4K+, and HDRx reallly do offer certain irreplaceable competitive advantages.

I have an EPIC. And I'm willing to donate it, my services, and the services of my studio to bring your dream to life.

You: have a finished script, a budget (you can now subtract camera and accessories purchase from that), a business plan, a realistic schedule, a crew, production insurance, a cast, and your locations secured. You also own a minimum of 8TB of hard drive space + enough hard drives to back up these 8TB x 2.

Me: I'm a good producer. I can shoot. I can wrangle your data. I know people who can elevate the quality of your film without breaking the bank. I have a goal, to make 3 feature films that I can be really proud of, before I turn 55 - that gives me seven years to fulfill my dream.

So for all of you disgruntled folks who feel like RED dumped on your dream by raising the price of the SCARLET, I'm offering you a trade.

Pitch me an awesome idea. Put together your package. If your film falls into the category of a feature film that I can really be proud of (be unique, intelligent, engaging - no Pulp Fiction/Res Dogs derivative wannabes, please)

...then we can probably work something out.

Making a good film is so much more than owning a camera. If you can do all those other things, pull a dream and a team together, I'll give you the camera and my full support to your endeavor. We can help each other make everyone's dreams come true.

Shoot me a PM if you are seriously obsessed with your vision and are serious about working your ass off to make a great film. I get pitched screenplay ideas constantly and the honest truth is most of them either a) suck or b) they can't be made on a true indie budget.

But here's hoping that one of these perfect projects by an earnest indie lands in the right place, certainly not impossible, I just helped to produce a small indie which was shot by a merry band of LA actors who rented a house in Estes Park, Colorado - they had a great script and a plan and they shot their film in 3 weeks. So I know good projects are out there, waiting for the good people behind them to find a helping hand.

This offer is primarily geared towards continental US but I'll consider Hawaii, Bhutan, and Australia!

Let's see who is out there....

What ever happened with this project? No good ideas out there? I am still very interested in being involved as outlined

 

[Meryem Ersoz]

I have found three projects which I'd be honored to work on, Josh, according to the offer which I laid out, in the original post. I have already put myself to work, on the development of one of these. I'll post more about them all, in a while. These projects belong to the producers, not to me, so I can't say much without their permission.

Unfortunately, that "one project to rule them all" - that one project which will be able to put us all to work, has proven elusive. Though I'm still listening. I'm trying to think of ways to help put everyone in touch. I contacted RED about a sub-forum for this type of networking but have not received a response. I'm sure that they are working their tails off on other things, and we can certainly use the forum, in its present incarnation to do this work individually - many people already do.

I think a new thread, with a list of everybody who contacted me and the services which they are willing to provide, collated in one place, might be a good start - that way everyone who is willing to work on a great project, can define for themselves what a great project is, rather than me filtering them. I don't think the result of this experiment is going to be a single project with everyone at work on it, probably more like multiple projects with multiple people involved.

 

[Meryem Ersoz]

So, to update this thread after a long and very, very busy hiatus - I signed up to work on Sean Jourdan's film project TEDDY BOY (http://www.teddyboythemovie.com/)...I strong urge any of you who wanted to participate in the chosen film to get in touch with Sean. I won't hold any of you to the offers - you are free to pursue participation in the film.

But I'm truly, truly amazed and impressed by the unexpected outpouring of support for an idea - the idea that films can indeed be built in the fertile soil of a community like this.

It seemed pretty logical for me to start locally, rather than globally, since I'm also a parent and not just a filmmaker....moreover, I can be more help on pre-production with someone who doesn't live halfway across the country, or even the world.

I've been working hard as a producer on his show, and I would invite any of you to check it out. If you're interested in jumping on board in any of the capacities you mentioned, I'm sure he would be thrilled. He is putting his heart and his soul and his savings into the project, and I think he will bring something unique and interesting to life. Sean has actually managed to get VOD distribution for one of his short films, and he has won plenty of festival awards for short films, but this is his first feature. I have high hopes for it. He is the man with the plan and the vision, the type of young filmmaker whom I hoped to support.

I'm going to throw this offer out again next year, since it has been an interesting experiment, and see who else is out there - I can't take on more than one free feature each year. It's a huge amount of work. I still wish we could initiate a "trade of services" forum of some sort. I think it could be quite popular and help to get more films made and relationships forged.

My goal simply has been to meet new people and make an interesting project. And, of course, to illustrate that projects get done by inspiring others and by delighting in our craft, not simply by owning a camera.

Here is his Kickstarter campaign. He launched it yesterday. It attracted 27 backers and $8,150 on its first day, which is a fantastic achievement. He managed to hit the 25% funded mark on Day One, and I believe is currently almost 30% funded. I think I picked a good project and an earnest, hard-working person to support. I shot the Kickstarter for him, and Sean edited it, with plenty of feedback from me. All concepts and storylines are his alone. If you can kick in a couple of bucks, it would be much appreciated - I must ask, because of course it is what we producers do...but check it out and see for yourself. The project is also in need of a production designer and a 1st AD, so if you know anyone who would like to pitch in on a promising project, get in touch with Sean, via the TEDDY BOY website. And if you want to offer him services, by all means, please do. I'm sure he could use a steadicam op, and perhaps even a 2nd cam, as long as you can bring along an AC. Keep in mind that we're in micro-budget territory here, so anything you would offer him would have to be voluntary or at least very close to it. He is looking to hire, but this is a passion project, purely.

He's a great collaborator, and Colorado is a beautiful place to spend May-June. The project has some strong visual elements, and we'll be spending some time shooting in the mountains.

http://www.kickstarter.com/projects/2141350807/teddy-boy-feature-film

 

[Will Keir]

I love your spirit.

If it's a feature film I'm definitely chipping in. 5,000 USD If I like the script. Plus an offer to shoot any number of scenes in Egypt flight for 4 to 6 people and I got the rest of the crew here. My Epic, lenses, and all my equipment can be used. Let's get this done

 

[Will Keir]

Hey Ron,

I've been asked to do a story on a soldier and a dog from the war in Afghanistan, would be interested in green lighting this project if I could find the right footage. PM if you'd be interested.

Wow,
woke up this morning and read this thread, incredible, what offers from the gang. I will through into the pot as well, I have a gap in Jan to March, doing some other pickup work and chilling so would love to be involved. Can support in USA East Coast and South Africa, or with notice Europe. Epic-x, Red Primes and zooms, if timing is right set of Ultra Primes, Cantor X Audio capture, 5K Kino lighting, grip equipment, DIT Cart with Mac Pro 12 Core, 40TB of SAN Raid 5 Storage, and 24TB of Thunderbolt Storage, access to closed areas of Kruger Park, and other great location on South Africa.

And for the right script will through in $5K, also have access to some distribution channels through other work I have done with others. Also great stock footage of Afghanistan shot on Red One.

cheers
Ron