An honest question for the Red Scarlet audience like me.

[Tonaci Tran]

Love RED or hate em Nick, the choice is up to you. Buy scarlet when it comes out or not. Keep ranting on now or not.. either way it will not speed up scarlet delivery.

It took me several posts to realize I just so wasted my time replying to this thread. I gotta get out of here.

 

[Meryem Ersoz]

I have nothing else to show for the time invested...

You have got to be kidding here.

Reduser is a rich resource, regardless of whether you even pick up a camera or not. Supplied for free. Cheaper than film school. Interactive with some of the brightest minds on the web. And RED has taken time away from development for ponsoring free events, like RED Day and their NAB event, where you can speak directly with the developers of these technologies, even make friends with them, and see bleeding-edge innovations in progress.

Even if I wasn't shooting a RED camera, I'd still pay attention to what is here because there is so much to learn, so many great models to emulate, and a lot to learn from people who work at very high levels. The access to production diaries and works-in-progress is unparalleled.

If all you did was review the reels and trailers posted online here, you'd be learning so much that, if you took these lessons seriously, you would already be past the $3000 SCARLET category. This kind of knowledge is money in the bank.

And if you can't understand that, then SCARLET is probably more camera than you need, anyway -- save yourself a couple bucks and go pick up one of the alternatives, there are lots of great, cheap cameras out there.

You don't have to wait until this April to be a fool - you have already squandered a tremendous opportunity, if you really, truly believe that you have "nothing to show" for all your time.

You control your creative destiny, no one else. And certainly not a camera.

 

[Erwin Vanderhoydonks]

I'm also waiting and waiting for Scarlet to arrive. But this gives me time to put all things in order.
For the moment I'm still shooting small project with my Canon XL1. Not XL1s, XL2, XH-A1 or some other camera.
Before I even buy a Scarlet, I'll have to see the results. Than compare with other cameras. I'm still defining a good workflow. Playing with R3D files with my current computer hardware. Can I use it or do I need new hardware? If so, I don't buy it now, I'll wait.
For the moment I don't have time to learn new cameras like a Canon 5D MII or a Canon XH-A1. For me, that's losing money and time that I beter can save for later when Scarlet is ready and approved.
And if Scarlet is not 'THE' camera for me, than I can decide to look for something else. But for the moment I'll wait.
Perhaps RED is working on a 4K Scarlet. Jim said that 4K is the way to go. So way still think of a 3K Scarlet. Things can change... ;-)

 

[Matthew Duclos]

Fail

 

[Jim Retar]

they actually are investing time in shooting test plates of the 5D and 7D and bashing it

This is something I will agree with you on.... This is one of the few things that leaves a bitter taste in my mouth with REDuser. Canon don't need to do test plates for a sony $100 point and shoot to try and get one over Sony.... so RED don't need to do test plates on a $1500 camera to try and get one over Canon.

When Scarlet 2/3" comes out, then by all means do a comparison (both still and video) of a high end Canon/Nikon camera. Apples for Apples (at least price wise) please.

 

[Brandon Kraemer]

I would have given you credit for putting your 'balls on the table', but unfortunately, you ducked behind the real name policy.

...which seems reason enough to lock this user until they get properly registered. It wouldn't be the first time that has happened. Unless first name, last initial qualifies as a "Real Name", I am getting tired of so many exceptions to this rule. Other forums have a registration delay of 24 hours while your real name info gets vetted.

I can only speculate that if this rule was upheld more, we'd have a better signal to noise ratio on here, making information easier to find.

 

[Darren Orange]

I am not going to say too much, but obviously this guy was not at RED Day and has never tried working with 7D or 5D footage. BTW the low light is awful on the 7D and 5D they create tons of compression noise at high ISO and in the darks always.

Frankly after RED Day I'd say RED footage (M or MX 4K or 4.5K) can rival IMAX, given the 70' wide screen. I see no reason why Scarlet 3K would not blow away anything 35mm. I think it's about time I make that post...after seeing this.

A standard IMAX screen is 22 m × 16.1 m (72 ft × 53 ft), but can vary. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/IMAX

 

[alex lemon]

To the original poster:

Dude. Get a grip.

 

[DCC Erickson]

You have got to be kidding here.

Reduser is a rich resource, regardless of whether you even pick up a camera or not. Supplied for free. Cheaper than film school. Interactive with some of the brightest minds on the web ...

Exactly. I feel like a thief - scanning threads, learning a whole lot more than I'd ever learn in school. What lenses are great, workflow fixes, what's the hip style, best gear. I cackle with delight every time I see a new post from an expert, laying it all out for me - happy to share real experience and real knowledge. It's a gift that keeps on giving and is too easily taken for granted.

If there were no product at all, this message board would still be worth the price of a graduate degree in film production and much more.

 

[Stuart English]

Camera comparisions

Camera comparisions

Canon don't need to do test plates for a sony $100 point and shoot to try and get one over Sony.... so RED don't need to do test plates on a $1500 camera to try and get one over Canon.

With respect, it's not a question of "getting one over" anybody. Perhaps it's not appreciated just how passionate Jim and the entire RED team are about not short changing image quality. The RED ONE web page statement that "pixel shifting and up-rezzing not spoken here" is very specifically pointed directly at that issue.

There have been several suggestions made recently that if you just have "X million" pixels in your sensor, then you would essentially have what a RED ONE offers you. However visual proof that this statement is not true - and that the sensor exists as part of an overall camera system - was illustrated to those who attended RED DAY.

 

[Darren Orange]

However visual proof that this statement is not true - and that the sensor exists as part of an overall camera system - was illustrated to those who attended RED DAY.

Hence the IMAX size screen with RED footage on it that looks as good as IMAX or better.

vs

The Canon 7D on a 40" LCD at 1080P with visible noise/compression at 320ISO. (this is from personal testing)


Also lets not forget that your also talking about RED4K compression at 15mb/s on the IMAX size screen and no visible compression or noise.

 

[Jon Carr]

Nick your expecting WAY TO MUCH from a still NEW COMPANY. You should try to put yourself in there shoes. How old is RED? How long have they been in the market? A company this young just can not produce a new camera every year like canon, sony or panasonic and flood the market. They just don't have the capital, resources, and manufacture capabilities like other camera companies that been around for almost forever do. With the amount of money and research there putting into the epic/scarlet designs, it could make or brake their company. If they did release the scarlet as promised with out finishing the R&D work. What would happen if the camera had some serious fault when in the hands of the consumers? A wrong move like that can kill a new business. Especially a business that is invested in electronics such as this. Also your not really thinking the Scarlet/Epic camera designs through, who else designed cameras like this for the price? You have the ability to start out with the most basic 3k scarlet package and eventually end up with the epic, and not having to buy a complete new package. You should be happy that a company like this is keeping its users (and competitors) up to date on their camera development. I think there doing fine, there doing what they said they would do, as soon as every whos upgrading their sensors are done they should be testing the tattoos to the flew people they know who's gonna test the hell out of it to make sure there's big uniform seen no problems with the design, cause there's no really going back once there in production.

 

[Andrew Rieger]

I think a ton of complaints would be simply alleviated with the release of some teaser footage from the Scarlet 2/3". Now I love Red's projects and I don't care how long they take to make the Scarlet.

Here is my plea to Red: Just give us some quick tests with the budget system so at least we can get some idea what we are working with. I know there was a working testbed a couple of months ago so it should be no problem. Just get some shots of a color chart, zone plate, night street footage, some DOF tests ect. 5 min max just to keep the faithful alive.

Now I am not comparing Canon quality to Red but there was 5D footage several months before anyone who was not some big shot tester, got their cameras, so if Red is as close as they say they are (which I believe), than some tests should not be too difficult.

Honestly, my theory is that with the release of the tattoo program, Red is focused on their high end gear for those customers that were loyal from the beginning (or had the money to be loyal from the beginning). Nothing wrong with that. That is why most things we are seeing are MX and workflow related. Scarlet is under development but it is on the back burner compared to the MX update and the Epic tattoo program. Again, nothing wrong with that.

What we need now are some previews of the 2/3" sensors abilities. Nothing perfect just a little teaser to get an idea and get the creative juices flowing. Until then, everything is just speculation as to what the final product will deliver. It is the uncertainty that is driving posts like this.

 

[Jim Retar]

With respect, it's not a question of "getting one over" anybody. Perhaps it's not appreciated just how passionate Jim and the entire RED team are about not short changing image quality. The RED ONE web page statement that "pixel shifting and up-rezzing not spoken here" is very specifically pointed directly at that issue.

Well, I could counter that by saying Canon are passionate about amazing ISO in still imagery.... A 7D would blow away the sony $100. Canon will never go out of their way to prove their ISO superiority over a 15x less expensive camera though.

Just giving my opinion (and advice).... I think RED should just concentrate on showing off the amazing steps they are taking.... they don't need to show the world how bad anyone else is. There are enough video forums to keep track on the performance of every new camera.

 

[David Rasberry]

I think a ton of complaints would be simply alleviated with the release of some teaser footage from the Scarlet 2/3". Now I love Red's projects and I don't care how long they take to make the Scarlet.
.

I am sure they will post footage as soon as the new electronics are debugged and in place to do so. Which means after Tattoo as the basic image processing chips are part of the same development process for all models. We have seen test bed footage demonstrating the sensor, but more of the same is of little value.

Well, I could counter that by saying Canon are passionate about amazing ISO in still imagery.... A 7D would blow away the sony $100. Canon will never go out of their way to prove their ISO superiority over a 15x less expensive camera though.

In all fairness it wasn't Red that started the comparisons, but Canon fans. Rational responses like test charts to counter obviously wrong assertions about Canon's video quality are certainly within reason.

 

[Jim Retar]

In all fairness it wasn't Red that started the comparisons, but Canon fans. Rational responses like test charts to counter obviously wrong assertions about Canon's video quality are certainly within reason.

Well, it was equally Canon fanboys and Red fanboys who were making these threads... both trying to get a one up over each other.

I think RED should just showcase their own technology and leave comparisons to the users..... the serious money customers on here know what is what and what they need.

 

[Andrew Rieger]

We have seen test bed footage demonstrating the sensor, but more of the same is of little value.

I don't think the lizard footage counted. For one, it was 5 seconds long, showed no movement and gave us no idea about the dof or the low light capabilities. Still, if it was good enough to post online, im not sure why they did not show us something more.

I'm not asking for progress footage, just little clips to see the chip characteristics, nothing has to be set in stone but 2/3" will be 2/3" in terms of dof and low light and there is nothing Red can do to get around that. At this point, the sensor is close or done so a little teaser would really clear things up.

At this point, I have resorted to looking at SI 2K footage to get an idea of what to expect from the Scarlet, since it is the closest living relative at this time.

 

[Meryem Ersoz]

Well, it was equally Canon fanboys and Red fanboys who were making these threads... both trying to get a one up over each other.

I think RED should just showcase their own technology and leave comparisons to the users..... the serious money customers on here know what is what and what they need.

RED's user base is not just "serious money customers" - there are a lot of users for whom this camera represents a huge stretch, and they want this education, they want to know what they are paying for. They want to sleep well at night, knowing this was an intelligent use of funds. I see nothing at all wrong with RED trying to help its user base grasp the inner workings of complex technologies.

If you are not a current user, you may have a different perception of their intent, that it is somehow Canon bashing or some other misguided interpretation. But this is how I perceive it - as an educational service to their existing customer base. Your mileage may vary. Their zone plates didn't stop me from buying a 7D, because sometimes you have to sacrifice image quality for portability, hopefully EPIC and SCARLET's release mean that I will never have to make such compromises again. But meanwhile, I like knowing what I'm giving up in the process.

That's solid information - no negative descriptors like "fanboy" required.

I kind of wish that fanboy would go the way of that other phrase that automatically defaults to "Hootchie Mama" - it's totally negative and misleading.

 

[David Rasberry]

2/3" will be 2/3" in terms of dof and low light and there is nothing Red can do to get around that.

Sony's current gen top line 2/3" ENG camera carries a 1600 ISO rating and the new FW800 CineAlta is rated at 800 ISO. I expect Red can do pretty well in this regard too. Much better than current under $10k video cams for sure. Maybe even on par with the Sony's which would be fairly comparable to the M-X S35. There is more to low noise and low light sensitivity than just sensor size or pixel size.

 

[Gavin Greenwalt]

I have a simple theory. RED has always been optimistic. They were optimistic with the REDOne schedule. They are optimistic with the Scarlet schedule. Not much else to it. They don't add a lot if any buffer to their estimates.