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  • Hey all, just changed over the backend after 15 years I figured time to give it a bit of an update, its probably gonna be a bit weird for most of you and i am sure there is a few bugs to work out but it should kinda work the same as before... hopefully :)

An honest question for the Red Scarlet audience like me.

Unlike most companies, Red keep us updated with developments that (with companies such as JVC, Sony etc), wouldve gone unstated. When was the last time you saw a post from Sony telling a forum about the R&D of a product thats yet to be released?
I'll bet that other camera companies are in a similar stage of development with their new cameras but dont feel the need to converse with the community to which they're product will be sold.

One thing I've learnt from reading the many many posts on this forum is that Red is not just another company, its very much a community - they read what you post and keep it in mind when its time for some R&D. For better or worse, that means that we feel the same frustrations (particularly when it comes to release dates) that I'm sure Jim and et al feel.
 
If you have a low budget and need to shot now why not buy something else? That is what I did until Scarlet comes out. In my case a 5DMKII. It lets me work on projects for now until a RED solution in my budget range comes out. And, you can rent pretty affordably if you feel your project requires a higher scale format such as RED.

On that note I think we should be clear I’m not so sure Canon’s recent aggressive push into the video space with their DSLR’s would have been quite as aggressive if it were not for RED (and Nikon to some degree). The fact is Scarlet is a Laser Guided Missile aimed at Canon’s ProSumer Video Bunker. Faulting RED for taking the proper time to develop a field tested, and high quality product (with much more transparency than Canon ever has) is not unfair. It’s just inaccurate.

Finally, there are just a lot of technical inaccuracies in your post. A lot of emphasis is how the Scarlet will be lesser in DR, sensitivity etc. And how overall “we will never get that kind of footage”. Now, Scarlet will use the same sensor as Epic. So, other than resolution it should have fairly similar characteristics (not identical but close). A 3K Scarlet will produce footage that will be able to compete with much of the video and higher speed stocks used in Indie and Documentary production.

While a shot lit with a single match shot by Scarlet may not look as good on a 70 foot screen as one shot with 4.5K MX; it’s gonna look darn good on 20-40 foot screen and very much on a DVD screener. That is really is the format that you are most likely submit to a festival or distributor. The difference being that if you do get in the door and on to a bigger screen the footage will do you proud.

Again, there are great choices right now to create with for lower budgets. They will only get better over time. And, when Scarlet comes out you can rent before you buy. But, a total (and in places inaccurate) dismissal of RED is not going to speed things up.
 
We should all, especially the people at Red, give Nick D a huge round of applause for his courage in facing this board with what are real emotional, not technical, issues. And may I remind everyone we are in the business of emotions.

A business’ worst nightmare is not the customer who articulates his problems with a product or service. A company’s worst nightmare is the customer who decides the company failed him AND NEVER TELLS YOU WHY.
 
Billy Barber said:
We should all, especially the people at Red, give Nick D a huge round of applause for his courage in facing this board with what are real emotional, not technical, issues. And may I remind everyone we are in the business of emotions.

A business’ worst nightmare is not the customer who articulates his problems with a product or service. A company’s worst nightmare is the customer who decides the company failed him AND NEVER TELLS YOU WHY.
Click to expand...

I think you might be confusing "drama" with something else...

he's not a customer... So far, just someone who is re-hashing conspiracy theories and the like without any real foundation in anything objective... anything other than emotion.

I'm all for someone voicing reasonable, and rational concern. Wish more people could figure out how to do it... Would make for some more productive discussion to read and learn from. But, I don't see what there is to applaud about accusing a company of intentional false advertising and concocting hoaxes without any real proof or anything more than an emotional hunch...
 
My personal opinion on this is....

a) RED are not as deceiving as this post (and others I have read) make out. They really do seem to have the customers interest at heart and seem geniunly disappointed to let anyone down.

b) RED are not quite as transparent as the die hard fans would make out.... (it would be commercial suicide for any company to be 100% transparent)

An example is the Scarlet s35 (this is purley my speculation).... it is, for alot of users here, the holy grail of price/specs.... but I do think it will be very much on the back burner untill the Epic line is out. This could be to stop customers downgrading from Epic to s-S35... or could be that they will use sensors that didn't quite cut it at Epic level for the S-s35.... if this speculation were true... RED would not say it, and i'm sure there have been instances, like the above situation, where RED decide to be less transparent... it is inevitable and all business' have to do it.

Overall though, if you are interested in RED you have to stand by the mantra "subject to change".

On a side note.... those saying Nikon/Canon released a video mode to compete with RED are living in fantasy land. Since the day "live view" mode was launched, the idea of DSLR video was born and talked about.
 
Jason Ramsey said:
But, I don't see what there is to applaud about accusing a company of intentional false advertising and concocting hoaxes without any real proof or anything more than an emotional hunch...
Click to expand...

I think I detected a small hint of sarcasm in Billys post...
 
oh.... My bad :) it's 6am, here... sleepy

Was really scratching my head on that one...

later,
Jason
 
Jason Ramsey said:
he's not a customer...
Click to expand...

I'm not going to go into much of the issue, since it's been covered all over, better than I could. But I'd like to make one point that Jason kinda grazed by before I go to bed:

It can't be false advertising if there's no product. You can *call* it false advertising and get all huffed up about it, but, well, "...subject to change..."
 
Wow. This is an interesting thread. I agree with the dude who says 'rent'. If you are only shooting one project you don't need to buy. Put that money on the screen instead. It's not the gear that makes the images work it's the people behind the gear. Put any camera in a room with NO lights and all the images will look the same.... Like crap.
 
Nick,

My guess is that you probably made Jim's short list. I would have given you credit for putting your 'balls on the table', but unfortunately, you ducked behind the real name policy.

You sound like a well read board reader, so unfortunately you don't get a noob pass. Nevertheless, you wording came across as quite incendiary. I hope the moderators choose not to ban you, giving you a chance to revisit this conversation when the Scarlet is a more common product or at least when the 'proof is in the pudding'.
 
Nick is not a customer? Fair enough. But I am a customer. Or at least I was. (#004615) I had made my down payment and had the money in hand for a Red One just before the Scarlet/Epic announcements of Dec 2008. Then I heard rumblings about a new smaller lighter and cheaper Red so I waited.
If Nick crossed the line into conspiracy theory land allow me to be presumptuous and argue the case from a slightly different angle.

Everything changes? Really? Unconditional love for your children? A kiss is still a kiss? Or more to the point: deadlines? I worked as a composer and music supervisor for CBS and ABC for twenty years. Nothing EVER changed, at least not from my end. Something like 5000 cues for some real mediocre television and news specials. If I had missed even one deadline and offered an explanation about improper signal to noise ratios or 60 cycle hum or this is really difficult I would have been fired. Cancelled family vacations,etc- whatever it took.This is nothing out of the ordinary. It’s what professionals do. So why is a deal not a deal when it comes to Scarlet?

There’s obviously a lot to admire about Red. And someone like Jim who puts his money where his mouth is. Most of all it seems like they’re having fun and their passion is contagious. So if one is trying to be productive going forward I’m reminded of the old adage ‘the perfect is the enemy of the good’. Perhaps less complicated would have been better. I don’t know. I’m just a customer waiting to receive a product.
 
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Thank you for all your time and replies. I appreciate the Red Moderator not ripping my post down and "the love" on Valentines Day.

I think Red has truly served the film community well with the Red One and now Epic in this regard, and am both honest and sarcastic in my post because really, I have nothing else to show for the time invested...

However, I feel that RED has equally DAMAGED the purchasing plans of legitimate Videographers such as myself who would have been happy with other gear in the meanwhile after 2008 NAB, now to the point I had to speak out...

My main complaint is that at this stage the dishonest (OK- partially honest but frequesntly MISLEADING) MARKETING on pricing and delivery dates = Free press, which HAS affected videographers purchasing decisions to make suitable investments from 2008 to 2010 in the $10,000 Category and under, be it on bodies, lenses, etc which HAS hurt the Industry in whole...

I raise the question now because I think Red "Transparency" over the last year has now become full-blown "Propaganda" and taken on a different tone to myself as a potential Fixed or S35 Scarlet client, and I am DISGUSTED that they censored the OTHER CAMERAS forum. In the meanwhile, they actually are investing time in shooting test plates of the 5D and 7D and bashing it, instead of removing the Scarlet and Red Ray 2009 from their homepage products, and waiting their turn until they have shipping product in 90 days or less to put them back up, and to allow an outside firm to conduct true price equivalent comparisons for Canon and Sony reps to witness, verify and respond to.

For Red to not have shipping Scarlet product 2 years later and now trying to bash Canon or Sony who has legitimate product in the $10K under price range for decades, I think is simply offensive no matter who the company is.

I hope we can collectively request Red to remove the Scarlet product from the home page and show it on a concept product page until 90 days from launch with real working product to show... either that or have Red come clean about the Scarlet final product specs, pricing and delivery date now. I prefer the later...

I hope other equipment manufacturers resist following suit than what we are currently seeing from the Red marketing and development team...

Truly disappointing to a potential Scarlet client...
 
Nick D said:
In the meanwhile, they actually are investing time in shooting test plates of the 5D and 7D and bashing it,
Click to expand...

The thread you're talking about:
http://reduser.net/forum/showthread.php?t=41220
seems pretty legitimate as a test, and to be fair Jim has stated that the 7D is
'an EXCELLENT stills camera. Worth the money for that alone.'

It seems fair that if the 7D is going to pitch itself toward the motion market, then it should be held to scrutiny against its (potential) competitors.
 
Nick D said:
Thank you for all your time and replies. I appreciate the Red Moderator not ripping my post down and "the love" on Valentines Day.

I think Red has truly served the film community well with the Red One and now Epic in this regard, and am both honest and sarcastic in my post because really, I have nothing else to show for the time invested...

However, I feel that RED has equally DAMAGED the purchasing plans of legitimate Videographers such as myself who would have been happy with other gear in the meanwhile after 2008 NAB, now to the point I had to speak out...

My main complaint is that at this stage the dishonest (OK- partially honest but frequesntly MISLEADING) MARKETING on pricing and delivery dates = Free press, which HAS affected videographers purchasing decisions to make suitable investments from 2008 to 2010 in the $10,000 Category and under, be it on bodies, lenses, etc which HAS hurt the Industry in whole...

I raise the question now because I think Red "Transparency" over the last year has now become full-blown "Propaganda" and taken on a different tone to myself as a potential Fixed or S35 Scarlet client, and I am DISGUSTED that they censored the OTHER CAMERAS forum. In the meanwhile, they actually are investing time in shooting test plates of the 5D and 7D and bashing it, instead of removing the Scarlet and Red Ray 2009 from their homepage products, and waiting their turn until they have shipping product in 90 days or less to put them back up, and to allow an outside firm to conduct true price equivalent comparisons for Canon and Sony reps to witness, verify and respond to.

For Red to not have shipping Scarlet product 2 years later and now trying to bash Canon or Sony who has legitimate product in the $10K under price range for decades, I think is simply offensive no matter who the company is.

I hope we can collectively request Red to remove the Scarlet product from the home page and show it on a concept product page until 90 days from launch with real working product to show... either that or have Red come clean about the Scarlet final product specs, pricing and delivery date now. I prefer the later...

I hope other equipment manufacturers resist following suit than what we are currently seeing from the Red marketing and development team...

Truly disappointing to a potential Scarlet client...
Click to expand...

You spend too much time whining and blaming and not shooting.
 
What RED is doing... making cameras, thus far, no other company has an answer to (red one) in truly remarkable. They literally come out of no where, against companies with WAY much more experience in building cameras and delivered.

Red never took your money for the scarlet..in fact you can't even pre-order one..and here you are complaining about missed "target" dates? Jim's never promised you anything.
 
Tonaci Tran said:
You spend too much time whining and blaming and not shooting.
Click to expand...

And then there's that overweening sense of entitlement that seems to pervade the web. Just because a forum exists for venting your personal dramas doesn't mean you should use it, or that anyone wants to hear from you. A professional takes responsibility for their choices, and they make the most of what's available. I'm sorry it's not a perfect world, now go do something usefull.
 
Nicky my man!

I sincerely hope you opt to not buy any Scarlet's when they come out. Seriously.

And I'll make the offer to buy your now-ratty Red tee shirt from you so you can re-coup some of your investment in Red The Product, as you clearly haven't come to appreciate Red The Philosophy.

Your post is so full of emotional-lashing-out as opposed to actual facts and events that's they aren't woth adrressing individually. Other responses have already done that. It all boils down to the fact that you weren't a big enough boy to read or understand the disclaimer that Jim has posted about a bazillion times, and adorns the red.com website.

So for every one of the forum-jockey's who posted the intellectual equivalent of some 17-yr old emo kid piercing his nose and wearing black nail polish because his mommy didn't love him, there are hopefully 10 of us who appreciate what level of transparency we DO get from Red, recognize what "subject to change" means, actually used our education to understand the Epic/Scarlet timeline targets represented, recognized Red is a Business, and changed the product (including pricepoint) they opted to devlelop and did our own personal value calculations to see if we want to buy the product, etc...

So, please, life without you in the Red Ownership Koolaid Klub would be much more fun, and besides, if you leave than there's one less person in line for my Scarlet.

Buh bye.

-sc
 
I have to say, that far to much of your energy is being expended on complaining. Go out rent a camera if your being delayed. If not, invest time into preproduction or anything that will make your final shoot with whatever variation of the Red modality you want even better.
 
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