An Epic Investment

[Jeremiah Kuehne]

Got your interest, right? Well, I'm asking for some of your thoughts and opinions. I'm wondering how good (or bad) of an idea it would be to purchase an EPIC package and rent it out through a rental house for the first while. Is there a decent chance of paying off the initial investment? I'm wondering if the packages in rental houses actually get rented out much or not. I've seen daily rates in rental houses that would imply a good return on the investment. However, are they just sitting around collecting dust in the rental houses or not? I'm sure it varies a lot..I'm just considering my options. Even being able to pay off half the initial cost through rentals in the first year would be worth it for sure in my opinion. Thoughts? Feedback? Thanks

Also, I searched threads before posting..I know I've seen stuff like this before but couldn't seem to find what I was looking for.

 

[Uli Plank]

Be careful! Here in Germany you can rent an Epic for 99,- € a day (without lenses). I doubt you'll pay it off any time soon that way…

 

[Vigen Vartanov]

Very important in rental business is good (brand) lenses + accessories . When you are Rental house you need have expensive accessories + Lenses . If you are getting Camera for your productions only you can get minimum accessories package + cheap used lenses and you will do productions for you . And your package will cost you 50 000 USD . In case of rental house you package will cost you around 150 000 USD to great a package that DP will rent from you . You will need to do minimum 3-4 long project to feel money back for this investment .

 

[Björn Benckert]

My five cents on the matter,
I think if you own the camera then the rental house will prefer to rent out their own gear and not promote your camera that much. So I guess you need to find a rental place that is missing an Epic in their product line or have a shortage. i.e have more requests than they have cameras. The problem then, is that your camera will be the last in line to be rented out. And if they have a real shortage then most likely find it better to make the investment themselves.

Also if you put your camera there, and business goes well then the rental company can clearly see what is going on and buy their own and cut you out of the chain.

I think the above is quite simple to understand, and it narrows it down to the fact that it its not maybe the best way to get the investment worth while. However it's an allternitive worth thinking of if you buy the camera for your own use. Then the little extra income is a bonus and you maybe also can get a good relationship with a rental camera so you get a good discount on their gear. I think asking for a 40% discount on the gear you rent and give them 60% of the income of your camera when it goes out or such is a fare split. Then off course that is depending on how many lenses, dollies, lights etc that you use in your daily line of work.

But something also to consider is the fact that most setup/deals like the above end up with big fights, and disappointment from all sides, lawsuits etc.

So with the above in mind we keep our camera at our office and all the rental houses in the area knows we have it and they know that if they are tight on cameras they can always give us a call and we will let them sub rent it for a good price. A price that can be negotiated from time to time. This way nobody feels cut out and we can bring up or lower the price if the demand varies. We also know for sure what days our camera is in use or not, the big fights usually starts with the rental company does not tell the owner that his camera is out working...

The epic is now in high supply all over the planet, so is lower cost alternitives (like scarlet and other lower prices pro/semi pro cameras) you need to use the "rent me" app for your iPhone and click in the retail price and "soft demand" and "old" to get near the actual rental fees. It due to a lot of things, people that never had any plans to rent out gear, now with lower prices, actually think they will get the old Arri435 rates for their scarlets... well that will not happen. Also people having a camera and one set of lenses think that they can beat the price of the bigger rental houses.. well that will not happen since the big rental houses can host a big production and what they do not make on the swings they bring in on the carousels. Here in Stockholm, Sweden this race has gone to the level where one of the biggest rental houses rent out "EPIC for FREE*" where the star indicate "for all advertising clients", since those rent light, grip and so much other stuff they can and will trough in an Epic M package for free.

Also the fact that producers are afraid to rent from somebody that owns only one body, since they feel that if that camera brakes then they are less likely to find a replacement.

So i think (at least it is so for us) best if you get the camera and target it towards, DOP's, Directors and producers but then you need to have a very valid reason for them to rent from you, that could be price, service, unique setup... probably you need all three of those things.

For our part we do post with a large number of clients, then we can throw in a nice camera package in the post deal, supply them with a DIT to finished online kind of chain... We also got our milo with our Epic setup and lenses as a complete kind of package which is unique in northern Europe.

So I think just owning a camera, is not enough to make profit from it, it needs to be part of a bigger scene to make revenue.

All this is just based on my experience working out of stockholm, Im sure other places work different, however our camera has been in use in Kuala Lumpor, Paris, Capetown and other remote places... so I would say the market is very much international and the stories I hear when traveling is pretty much the same all around.

But also our camera paid of within the first 2 months, but that was epic was new and fresh

 

[Timur Civan]

It also depends on the rental house.

here in NYC, Some rental houses specialize in high end.... ARRI CSC, TCS, etc... Then there are some that cater to the indie market.... then some that cater to ENG...

The indie rental houses or ENG rental houses are often looking for an epic, but rarely rent them out, as its not the crowd they cater too.

 

[Jeremiah Kuehne]

I was thinking that with my location in Minnesota, the market wouldn't be so heavily saturated with Epics. However, the reason for that might be a lack of interest of Epics in the area. I was thinking I'd naturally try to get a good deal of clients myself, but also contact some rental houses and let them know that if they need an Epic, mine would be available to rent and work out an agreement with them. Thanks for all of the helpful replies!

 

[Jonathan Stevenson]

Anyone I know that's ever bought a Red based off the assumption that they can rent out the camera has gone bankrupt or had to sell it within 6 months. Don't buy the camera unless you can afford to make the payments without rentals. The rental market for Red is not as lucrative as some might believe.

Invest in glass, if anything.

 

[Justin Chin]

I agree with Jonathan. I know someone who has parked their Epic at a well known rental in the SF Bay Area (where I live) and it hasn't had action in 2 months. But all this depends on marketing and salesmanship. Cameras are everywhere and you have to put in a lot of work to make people aware that you and or camera exist. Bjorn is quite right, this is a business and even if your business is asset or service driven, you've got to do a lot of work.

 

[rod bradley]

I would second all the advice given. And suspect it will apply to Minnesota.

I think Bjorn's strategy, advice is correct. On top of which there are many jobs,
probably most, in which a Scarlet suits just fine. And those can be rented easily for $225 a day fairly well equipped with modest shipping charges anywhere in the US.

Your camera will pay far more "rent" as part of a package with you as the skilled DP and/or operator. As was pointed out, the Red line is the now the most prevalent serious piece
of shooting gear and most versatile as far as shooting level on the planet.

And don't forget, in order to be competitive in any rental market, there's another $6,000 "upgrade" that will be necessary just around the corner. And keeping up on accessories, never mind glass
really chips away.

As an investment, at this point, the Epic is only a good one if you are an in demand DP in a market where it is difficult or inconvenient for you to rent yourself. Or you are traveling to far flung corners
of the earth with your own gear. Or, of course, as a sublime piece of gear for doing your own stuff.

 

[Jeremiah Kuehne]

That's another thought that I had..perhaps the Scarlet would better suit me and the Minnesota market.

 

[Rob Ruffo]

It really depends on how much you shoot. The best way to buy a cam is to consider yourself your most dependable customer - here my wife and I account for about 50% of "rentals". We charge clients the same rate at which others rent from us, but being able to test and experiment on a whim is priceless.

In Montreal Epics are price controlled by a certain big rental house with "connections". This is a good thing for all as it keeps the market from bottoming out to the level of the most desperate loser in town. Rent an Epic under $700 (without lenses - just camera media, etc. based on week counted as no less than 3 days) and you first get a warning call, then a "visit" from the kind of people you do not want to have visiting you. Nobody rents under $700 (not for long, anyway) and so that's simply what producers pay, more for the luxury of a big rental house with lots of support and back-ups (whereas we can only offer a Red One MX as a back-up if need be). $700 is not crazy for an Epic package. Everybody wins.

Other cities are like that too, in Italy for example. I hear New Orleans is like that for everything, even for Steadicam ops.

Anyway, banks here would never lend you the money to buy a cam, and so few people own as you'd have to have the full amount in cash. Quebecers are also culturally leaning toward renting, even for housing. All this to say, this is potentially a great town to own an Epic if you're willing to make the calls and build relationships, and have lots of friends who are PMs, producers, etc. to get you started. Other places vary wildly. I could see the advantage of having one of the only Epics in Minneapolis. They do shoot a lot of stuff there.

As a last thought, doing promo of your gear rental takes time and effort you might rather spend actually shooting.

 

[Victor MOREIRA]

Got your interest, right? Well, I'm asking for some of your thoughts and opinions. I'm wondering how good (or bad) of an idea it would be to purchase an EPIC package and rent it out through a rental house for the first while. Is there a decent chance of paying off the initial investment? I'm wondering if the packages in rental houses actually get rented out much or not. I've seen daily rates in rental houses that would imply a good return on the investment. However, are they just sitting around collecting dust in the rental houses or not? I'm sure it varies a lot..I'm just considering my options. Even being able to pay off half the initial cost through rentals in the first year would be worth it for sure in my opinion. Thoughts? Feedback? Thanks

Also, I searched threads before posting..I know I've seen stuff like this before but couldn't seem to find what I was looking for.

Invested. Not looking back. More motivated to fight.