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  • Hey all, just changed over the backend after 15 years I figured time to give it a bit of an update, its probably gonna be a bit weird for most of you and i am sure there is a few bugs to work out but it should kinda work the same as before... hopefully :)

An Epic First Day :)

Thanks John sounds great. I hope swedish film get the chance asap to work with Red Epic...good luck John!
 
Shane Betts said:
One option in all this comes down to budget. If they can't afford data management for a 5k 5:1 shoot, then they shoot their cheap TVC at 2k 10:1. We may be forgetting here that the Epic heralds a whole new benchmark in image capture. Many projects and clients really don't need to upgrade from where they are. But if they want it, they have to pay for it.
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I don't know if that's realistic. I think more than likely, many will want to shoehorn a 5k 5:1 spot using existing data management methods, and if not outright expect the DIT to either "magically" make it all work for the same price with no OT, or just budget for the OT vs. the added costs of making it all work right the first time, even though it would probably save them money and frustration in the end to do it the right way first.

This is coming from experience with 2-camera features where they schedule a 4-page dialog scene for the last setup of the day, rolling both cameras on Red Drives, starting @ 30 minutes until wrap, creating 200GB of material at days end that require triple backups. Then ask me why does it take so long, "don't you have a 'Turbo' button?" While they were joking, I know I got blamed for the long day, and even in trying to explain or educate them, I can't help wondering if they are getting a bad taste for RED production, DITs in general, or just me specifically?
 
DIT is far from my area of expertise, but would it be possible to outline a 'Minutes required per gigabyte' number for them prior to signing on with the production? If they know that X amount of shooting will require Y amount of time to offload and duplicate, would they be more lenient and/or smart about the schedule?

If it is just generally accepted that you need to be able to keep up no matter what, then that expectation needs to be heavily lobbied against.
 
Chris Ratledge said:
I don't know if that's realistic. I think more than likely, many will want to shoehorn a 5k 5:1 spot using existing data management methods, and if not outright expect the DIT to either "magically" make it all work for the same price with no OT, or just budget for the OT vs. the added costs of making it all work right the first time, even though it would probably save them money and frustration in the end to do it the right way first.

This is coming from experience with 2-camera features where they schedule a 4-page dialog scene for the last setup of the day, rolling both cameras on Red Drives, starting @ 30 minutes until wrap, creating 200GB of material at days end that require triple backups. Then ask me why does it take so long, "don't you have a 'Turbo' button?" While they were joking, I know I got blamed for the long day, and even in trying to explain or educate them, I can't help wondering if they are getting a bad taste for RED production, DITs in general, or just me specifically?
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There has to be a line drawn somewhere. you can't make miracles happen every time. 200gb at the end of the day is unacceptable unless there is a very good reason and the compensation justifies it. Generally speaking I'm wrapping out at the same time as the rest of the camera department. There are rare exceptions. the only way to stop that madness is to stop doing those types of jobs. otherwise, they will have no reason to change their ways. Sounds like you're involved with some tough productions.
 
Chris Ratledge said:
I don't know if that's realistic. I think more than likely, many will want to shoehorn a 5k 5:1 spot using existing data management methods, and if not outright expect the DIT to either "magically" make it all work for the same price with no OT, or just budget for the OT vs. the added costs of making it all work right the first time, even though it would probably save them money and frustration in the end to do it the right way first.

This is coming from experience with 2-camera features where they schedule a 4-page dialog scene for the last setup of the day, rolling both cameras on Red Drives, starting @ 30 minutes until wrap, creating 200GB of material at days end that require triple backups. Then ask me why does it take so long, "don't you have a 'Turbo' button?" While they were joking, I know I got blamed for the long day, and even in trying to explain or educate them, I can't help wondering if they are getting a bad taste for RED production, DITs in general, or just me specifically?
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That's always going to happen until the whole production implodes but, at the end of the day, the producer will have to carry the can and maybe, just, maybe, will learn from their mistakes. Some don't.

I recall in the early days of non-linear editing being asked to digitise, edit and output a television hour in thirty minutes! The producer was most put-out when I told him he was a f*&%ing idiot! Now, he cuts his own stuff and I have since had run-ins with him over expecting onlines to be produced magically without reel numbers in the edl.

Eventually, you need to just take the high road and find better clients. And this is where the importance of this comes in. If you keep trying to do the impossible for the idiots, you'll just keep working for idiots because you'll gain a rep as a cowboy for whom things don't always work out. Stick to your guns, give the producer realistic boundaries (like, "Sure, if you do it at 2k ..."). It's stressful when the idiot clients drop off and you lose the income but your professionalism will stand you in good stead and soon better clients will find you. Just my 2cw.
 
Shane Betts said:
That's always going to happen until the whole production implodes but, at the end of the day, the producer will have to carry the can and maybe, just, maybe, will learn from their mistakes. Some don't.

Eventually, you need to just take the high road and find better clients.... Stick to your guns, give the producer realistic boundaries... It's stressful when the idiot clients drop off and you lose the income but your professionalism will stand you in good stead and soon better clients will find you. Just my 2cw.
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The film didn't implode, but I got nearly another entire day's pay out of it with all the OT. I don't know if they learned anything or not.

I agree but am at a loss on finding them. They've eluded me for the longest time, and I think a lot of it has to do with my geographic location, and I'm torn between familial concerns and career ambition. Plus I've lived and worked in NYC before. Not for this midwestern boy.

I get what you're saying about being too much of a yes man, and many a trial-by-fire has thickened my skin a bit and I know I'm not going to make all the same mistakes again regarding what I can tell a given production I can and will do. I don't know if I would call them 'idiots' in most circumstances, but there's certainly a lot to be desired on occasion.

Steve Sherrick said:
There has to be a line drawn somewhere....the only way to stop that madness is to stop doing those types of jobs. otherwise, they will have no reason to change their ways. Sounds like you're involved with some tough productions.
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Well the time in question was actually the last day of production, but similar though not-quite-as-bad days happened throughout the film's schedule. While trying to build my network I've found it difficult to NOT get these types of jobs as the only offers. Believe me I'd love to have the ability to turn them down, but more often than not, it's that or nothing, and mouthes need fed.

I've actually been asked by people I've worked with before to submit resumes to verify my 'qualification' to DIT a commercial spot, this is after telling them I've DIT'd a 2-RED feature, and performed a lot more duties than their 1-day spot is asking me to do.

Where'd I put that pesky DIT school completion certificate.....?
 
For those of you who think John is enthusiastic on this board, you really should see him on set. I cannot think of a DP with whom I have worked who is more collaborative or more enthusiastic than John. Much of the same goes for the entire crew including the producers, the director and all of John's team. The 3ality crew has been up to the task and the rig/camera combination is delivering. Congratulations to 3ality, RED and Lightiron. I am thrilled to be part of this production.

With the first week behind us, we were learning a wee bit on the job but the images are amazing. While I may be exhausted from week one, I am looking forward to many more!

-rob
(stereographer on super-secret Epic project)
 
Brook Willard said:
...Scarlet 2/3 fixed...
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:)

Can't wait...

The only issue is...how much will a 3D rig be.

The good thing about a low cost option for the 3D world is...the output can't be that much worse (presuming that it is shot correctly) that what is already out there. At least people will be shooting 3D. Anyone seen Narnia yet... unbelievable. Worse than Clash of the Titans.

People are going to tire of it very fast unless people wake up. I haven't seen a single 3D film recently that really takes advantage of it. That is the not the accuracy of shooting 3D but the directorial-ship behind it. Post 3D can get good enough results if done well but even still output is very bad. I am hoping Tron/Hobbit/Spidey change the tone and up the game.

Rant over...
 
Rob Engle said:
For those of you who think John is enthusiastic on this board, you really should see him on set. I cannot think of a DP with whom I have worked who is more collaborative or more enthusiastic than John. Much of the same goes for the entire crew including the producers, the director and all of John's team. The 3ality crew has been up to the task and the rig/camera combination is delivering. Congratulations to 3ality, RED and Lightiron. I am thrilled to be part of this production.

With the first week behind us, we were learning a wee bit on the job but the images are amazing. While I may be exhausted from week one, I am looking forward to many more!

-rob
(stereographer on super-secret Epic project)
Click to expand...
hey rob nice to meet you, what are ya workin' on buddy?
 
Rob Engle said:
The 3ality crew has been up to the task and the rig/camera combination is delivering. Congratulations to 3ality, RED and Lightiron. I am thrilled to be part of this production.
Click to expand...

Rob is also a bit modest in his contribution. The role of a stereographer in a production can be one that just adds more confusion to the crew. But somebody who knows what he's doing is an invaluable addition to the entire creative process.

It's refreshing to see an entire team - Director, DP, Stereographer, Editor, VFX Supervisor, etc. - all integrating stereo at a very base level into the creative process. I believe the results will be some of the best S3D imagery that has ever hit the screen.

This is a model of how an S3D picture should work.

Lucas


Lucas Wilson
------------
Business Development
3ality Digital
 
OT: Quality of conversion

OT: Quality of conversion

Tim Hole said:
:)
Anyone seen Narnia yet... unbelievable. Worse than Clash of the Titans.
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I'm sorry, but if you truly believe the quality of conversion on NARNIA is worse than CLASH, then I must heartily disagree. While I will not say that NARNIA is perfect in any way (it is very inconsistent), it, for the most part, had reasonable use of scale and good "finish quality" (edges were clear and didn't stretch). Additionally, NARNIA gave an adequate treatment of depth that did not over or under use 3D space. Lastly, the producers of NARNIA appeared to have done a good job of color timing the film for 3D.

CLASH and AIRBENDER 3D, on the other hand, were pure junk... poor use of scale (over the shoulder shots with shoulder at same depth as subject, parts of the frame not even treated), poor use of depth (very flat, to the point that I questioned why I should pay the extra $$), horrible finish quality (very stretchy edges) and poor color timing (my favorite review for CLASH said he felt he was watching the film through 3 feet of bong water).

Don't get me wrong... I did not LOVE the 3D in NARNIA but it was substantially better quality and use of 3D than CLASH... hands down.

Rob

p.s. How does one move a topic to a different thread when replying?
 
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The thing that drives me crazy about every 3D movie I have seen is the way the crappy 3D glasses make everything dark. It is like putting sunglasses on. Plus if you wear glasses like I do (don't like the idea of laser eye surgery) it is very uncomfortable wearing 3D glasses over your own glasses. So I just don't spend the extra money for 3D any longer. Every once in a while my son will want to see a 3D flick and I will oblige him.
Good luck with your new film. I will look forward to seeing it in 2D.
 
To me, 3D post-process "conversion" is a disgrace. If you want to do 3D, shoot it 3D.

Obviously there could be exceptions, like a post conversion on STAR WARS. I know that a lot of people are hating on the idea of Lucas converting those films and releasing them, but I'm a bit curious to see how those come out. And Lucas has a legit excuse for doing it in post, obviously! I'm also just stoked to get another chance to see those original films back in a huge movie theater.
 
We finished our first week and it went great, 54 set ups the last 2 days, we are all hitting our stride with this new technology. We respect to f-stop, I spent a day with Jim Cameron watching Avatar with the meta-data on the screen and the live action on that film was shot below a T2, it was 2/3" chip but his philosophy was to use DoF to direct the viewer to the part of the frame you wanted them to see. After a week I think I can sum up my feeling of shooting 3D this way, think of it as black and white, you can light very dark but you need contrast, flat isn't as effective for creating a good 3D, lighting an image with some guts seems to work better, which is fine for me because I don't think of my lighting style as flat.

John
 
3D and S3D, it has always been and it is now more then ever before my conviction that it is a complex work that needs to be
not only calculated, but also tough thru very well to be good. Conversion, even so to be an absolute last resort, it still is IMO
only to be executed if both Budget and time are there to have the process done by professionals and, yet never achieving the
thru S3D effect of any other project filmed originally in S3D with use of two cameras in each set up, achieving thru stereoscopic
simulation, one needs to seriously take in great consideration Depth from the very start of the process, and that is the SCRIPT.

Secondly it is the way each set up is created with subject and object interacting with each other as well as lighting to create a
greater DOF then traditionally achieved in Monoscopic 2D film sets. Utilizing multiple light source rather then single large
ones, and placing more items in various depths form the camera to the subjects in the FG as well as in the BG, and AID with
Shallow DOF and WO or close to it, to direct the Viewers attention to the elements of
interest, as well as the use of Convergency, are but few of the many ways S3D can be captured.

The fact of how some Cinemas use very poor Polarized glasses instead of Active Shutter Glasses, and further more do not
calibrate their Projectors,and or do not have the Lamp in their projectors properly set to the right luminance vs. when
projecting standard Monoscopic 2D films, is an other story all together, we all need to be educated in this that it is the Come
back of a new Era of S3D.



Back to Subject ;)

very glad to hear that you guys are enjoying yourselves on the shooting of the first S3D movie on Epics, and
continue to look forward in hearing more, and possibly one of this days stop by the set ;)

This way I can see the Epics/TS-5 rigs at work before I get to bring them to Italy, as well as having the pleasure to see some serious PROS at work ;)
 
Chris Ratledge said:
money and frustration in the end to do it the right way first.

This is coming from experience with 2-camera features where they schedule a 4-page dialog scene for the last setup of the day, rolling both cameras on Red Drives, starting @ 30 minutes until wrap, creating 200GB of material at days end that require triple backups. Then ask me why does it take so long, "don't you have a 'Turbo' button?" While they were joking, I know I got blamed for the long day, and even in trying to explain or educate them, I can't help wondering if they are getting a bad taste for RED production, DITs in general, or just me specifically?
Click to expand...

A perfect example of this is when the DP wants to switch to RED Drives at the end of the day to do a bunch of locked off shot for the vfx. Invariably no one is allowed to touch the camera(s), even for a mag change. Then you are left at wrap with 50-100GB of material that needs backing up and dailies processing.
 
John Schwartzman ASC said:
We finished our first week and it went great, 54 set ups the last 2 days, we are all hitting our stride with this new technology. We respect to f-stop, I spent a day with Jim Cameron watching Avatar with the meta-data on the screen and the live action on that film was shot below a T2, it was 2/3" chip but his philosophy was to use DoF to direct the viewer to the part of the frame you wanted them to see. After a week I think I can sum up my feeling of shooting 3D this way, think of it as black and white, you can light very dark but you need contrast, flat isn't as effective for creating a good 3D, lighting an image with some guts seems to work better, which is fine for me because I don't think of my lighting style as flat.

John
Click to expand...

Any chance Mr. Cameron will get to see your Epic footage in exchange?
Would be very interested what he thinks of the cameras and if he could/would use them on the next 2 Avatar movies.
 
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