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  • Hey all, just changed over the backend after 15 years I figured time to give it a bit of an update, its probably gonna be a bit weird for most of you and i am sure there is a few bugs to work out but it should kinda work the same as before... hopefully :)

An Epic First Day :)

Sweet spot.. REDCODE 5:1

We are moving to Ratios for REDCODE to avoid confusion.
 
Chris Ratledge said:
1 or 2 day commercials aren't going to pony up $2k+ for a small RAID 5 box.
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One option in all this comes down to budget. If they can't afford data management for a 5k 5:1 shoot, then they shoot their cheap TVC at 2k 10:1. We may be forgetting here that the Epic heralds a whole new benchmark in image capture. Many projects and clients really don't need to upgrade from where they are. But if they want it, they have to pay for it.
 
Thanks to John, Brook, and Michael for your posts. I eat this stuff up!!
 
Sorry Jarred. I remember now that you guys mentioned you were doing that. I guess I am not smart enough for the ratios, or too lazy to want to do away from the estimated file size system. :) But I think I might understand why you are doing that.

Shane Betts said:
One option in all this comes down to budget. If they can't afford data management for a 5k 5:1 shoot, then they shoot their cheap TVC at 2k 10:1. We may be forgetting here that the Epic heralds a whole new benchmark in image capture. Many projects and clients really don't need to upgrade from where they are. But if they want it, they have to pay for it.
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Exactly. Epic will let you turn the resolution/sensor-area and compression dials until you find your sweet spot. If you also consider the more affordable Epic Light as an option, then it sounds like it will be extremely tough to find a camera that will give you more at any price! Other than IMAX and other large film formats I may not know should be mention here, till Mostro and 645 arrive at least, and the consumer end where IQ isn't a factor. It almost feels like one of the surprise specs we haven't heard of yet will be a "32-bit floating point curve of IQ:$".
 
Roberto Lequeux said:
Exactly. Epic will let you turn the resolution/sensor-area and compression dials until you find your sweet spot. If you also considering the more affordable Epic Light as an option, it sounds like it will be very tough to find a camera that will give you more at any price! Other than IMAX and other large film formats I may not know should be mention here, till Mostro and 645 arrive at least. It almost feels like one of the surprise specs we haven't heard of yet will be a "32-bit floating point curve of IQ:$".
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I love this.

But looking into the chrystal ball, I do foresee a bit of confusion though. people will want and assume the 5:1 result, but will demand higher compression rates for datahandling, thus...
 
What a great thread, read this from tip to tale, and I am just a soccer shooting dad from the flatlands who has been using Jim's gear since the 80's. From thermonuclear shades to this. Hope there is a rig on the docket for us prosumers who appreciate the best gear.
 
Lucas Wilson said:
Hey Chris,

Not meaning to pick on you at all, but to point out a shift in attitude that will be necessary.

With Epic productions, and especially with stereo Epic productions - the time for holding things together with baling wire on the storage end is over. RED ONE data speeds allowed for a ton of weird and wild storage solutions to be used, because the read throughput necessary was not that high, and there were a lot of solutions that could do it reasonable well.

On paper, there are tons of storage solutions that support 100MB/s reads. In the real world, there are very few that support 100 *sustained* over a long enough period of time and reliably enough that a crew just really doesn't have to worry about it.

Michael very correctly points out the exponential increase in data coming off the set... fall behind on an Epic shoot and you are quickly in a world of hurt.
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I don't feel picked on by your comments in the least.

And while I agree with your statements, I think a lot of producers aren't going to stop expecting the bleeding edge at bailing wire prices, no matter how how correct you are. I just hope I can afford to compete if this is the attitude. Not everyone can be one of the 'big boys' on the coasts.

Data management is an afterthought still relegated to a PA in the worst circumstances in smaller markets, and even some very respected posters on this board have stated that portability has necessitated laptop-based workflows. Other times data is just handled as an add-on for VTR or Sound guys. In other words, yes an attitude adjustment is necessary, but in a lot of places, they haven't even begun to hit the previous change brought on by the R1.
 
Chris Ratledge said:
I don't feel picked on by your comments in the least.

And while I agree with your statements, I think a lot of producers aren't going to stop expecting the bleeding edge at bailing wire prices, no matter how how correct you are. I just hope I can afford to compete if this is the attitude. Not everyone can be one of the 'big boys' on the coasts.

Data management is an afterthought still relegated to a PA in the worst circumstances in smaller markets, and even some very respected posters on this board have stated that portability has necessitated laptop-based workflows. Other times data is just handled as an add-on for VTR or Sound guys. In other words, yes an attitude adjustment is necessary, but in a lot of places, they haven't even begun to hit the previous change brought on by the R1.
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Chris, I sympathize with your situation. Your are correct, often times there is a lack of understanding amongst certain types of producers as to the importance of data management. When underestimated, it can be disastrous.

I think the important lesson that can be learned from some of the better DITs and Digital Loaders, such as Brooke Willard, Steve Freebairn, and others is that it's not just the gear. It's implementing workflows, understanding what is needed for a particular project, and then assigning the right gear to do the job. I'm sure with this Epic shoot there was a LOT of thought put into it, and quite a few meeting of the minds to establish a plan that would provide the efficiency needed to handle the large amounts of data and fulfill the required deliverables.

Will every job require that type of setup? No. However, I do believe every job requires an understanding of what is needed. A Mac Pro with oodles of gear is not always the right choice. There could be many reasons for going with a different type of setup.

Budget can be a determining factor. If your market does not take data management seriously and is unwilling to pay kit rentals, then there are really only a couple of choices you have.Take the job and get away with the minimal amount of gear that can get the job done. Or try to educate the producers on what using the right gear will do for their bottom line in terms of efficiency, data security, and quality of product. If not convinced, maybe it's best to pass on the gig. Obviously one does what one needs to do to survive, so it's really a judgement call.
 
This question might be "too soon" to ask, but I assume that after scenes are picture locked, the editors go back to the .r3d's and transfer/transcode the necessary shots, plates etc. plus heads & tails to an uncompressed format for FX? I assume that stays in a 16-bit format or does it get upgraded? I'd be curious to know how you keep track of all that. Just roughly speaking, of course :)
 
Terry VerHaar said:
Paul - Historically, "window burning" means putting time code visibly, right in the video, for offline editing so you can be frame accurate in describing what frame you are referring to, etc. I assume it means the same thing in this context since matching frames precisely would be "kind of" important :yesnod: in matching the L/R frames in Stereo 3D.
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Thanks Terry! I'm used to the timecode "burn-in" term, but the word "window" had me thinking maybe it was burning in frameguides for L/R eyes etc with offsets. Definitely agree on needing to be frame accurate so I'd say you're spot on the money!

Cheers for the help :)

Paul
 
Steve Sherrick said:
Budget can be a determining factor. If your market does not take data management seriously and is unwilling to pay kit rentals, then there are really only a couple of choices you have. Take the job and get away with the minimal amount of gear that can get the job done. Or try to educate the producers on what using the right gear will do for their bottom line in terms of efficiency, data security, and quality of product. If not convinced, maybe it's best to pass on the gig. Obviously one does what one needs to do to survive, so it's really a judgement call.
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Nothing like beating a dead horse, I don't know what else to say or do to convince them to hire me and my gear. I think if I charged about 25% of what I should, I MAY get a few calls, but there's nowhere near enough work to make up the difference, and that does damage to the community at large by driving down wages. That whole "judgement call" you're talking about consumes WAY too much of my brain and time already. :emote_headwall:

The other option is for me to relocate to a busier market, even though I've tried that before and it almost killed me (literally)
 
Chris Ratledge said:
Nothing like beating a dead horse, I don't know what else to say or do to convince them to hire me and my gear. I think if I charged about 25% of what I should, I MAY get a few calls, but there's nowhere near enough work to make up the difference, and that does damage to the community at large by driving down wages. That whole "judgement call" you're talking about consumes WAY too much of my brain and time already. :emote_headwall:

The other option is for me to relocate to a busier market, even though I've tried that before and it almost killed me (literally)
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I hear ya Chris. It's one of the great benefits of unions in markets where there is enough work to go around. The job descriptions are defined, scale wages are set, and there has been a big push to educate crew, and producers. In smaller markets where there may not be this kind of organization, you are unfortunately at the mercy of the market, as you are experiencing. I hope things change for you though and productions are able to understand the value you bring to their shows. Hopefully there are other ways to fill in the gaps in the meantime. Hopefully this economy gets going strong again. It's getting old talking about how bad things are. I'm way too positive of a person for this type of economy. :-)
 
3D

3D

I'm predicting that RED's next innovation will be obsolescence of glass. Just a little pin-hole in front of the sensor... :-)
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But as an intermediate step, a 3D compatible low cost camera with 2/3" optics in an integrated package :-)
 
Stuart English said:
But as an intermediate step, a 3D compatible low cost camera with 2/3" optics in an integrated package :-)
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If you're saying it, something must be cooking in the RED cauldron, so I'm shaking in my boots and my bowels are about to let loose....WHEN, WHEN, WHEN?!!!!!!
 
Thanks John! I hope we can work with the Red epic with swedish film as well in the near future. Good luck John!
 
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