All things good with attitude changes

[Gunleik Groven]

Ok

Like when the 3k for 3k was dropped, REDs sharp turns create some... enthusiasm...

Now, all of a sudden - and for a limitied time - we have 4k for 4k.

Hahahaha

Good thing those R1's will see some more work!

Personally I'd have loved a R1-M, but I am not in a state where I can buy anything at the moment.


So.
Just breathe
And think.

What is best for your investment?

a) Sony/Canon taking up REDs position because RED wants to protect its prices and investments?
b) RED expanding reach to new users and make more people comfortable working whithin their idiom?

OK
Breathe again

Think once more

Try to answer.


RED is a strange company that caters to The Hobbit, but where the volume users is actually mostly small/private companies and persons.

They are capable of delivering images on the absolute high end
And still cater to the low end user as to liquidity.

ARRI has a different model, and that model has been successfull for their market.
Sony/Canon has their shots at both of the markets. We will only see if they succeed.

To me, this is a way of allmost forcing the cameras and workflows into a lot of new users and uses.

Which - in the long run at this stage, probably is the smartest move I have seen.
For all of us.

If we focus on getting the images we want, the value of our cameras will rise.
If not

Well, we're all fucked, really...

Cheers

G

 

[Steven-Marc C.]

Hello Gunleik,

The problem is not that Red lowers its prices to adapt to the market. That is inevitable.
What hurts is that it was done in one slash instead of a few progressive adjustments which would have allowed owners to adapt progressively.
But Red is a company that does things differently. This has pluses and minuses.
Everyone who has invested in Red equipment obviously wishes the company the best.
Such a price cut will hopefully bring along a lot of new sales for Red, but I'm afraid it will also hurt their image even more. You know what some people say about Red cameras on sets, imagine what they will be saying now... ;-)
I think we are faced with two choices, selling and leaving Red for "safer" waters (please note the quotation marks!), or diving deeper with them and taking advantage of new opportunities with these new prices. The choice is not so self evident. Personally, it's really the price of the Meizler module that makes me hesitate...

 

[Sam Taylor]

Getting a lot of upcoming camera operators confident and experienced on red work flow is a great positive. There are many tools for different jobs, but having a large population of people who don't shy away from using red products, is useful.

 

[Sam Taylor]

Maybe Steven-Marc, we can encourage a mentality that says someone can use red cameras in some situations, and other brands in other situations.

 

[Steven-Marc C.]

Maybe Steven-Marc, we can encourage a mentality that says someone can use red cameras in some situations, and other brands in other situations.

Definitely. I think it is important that Red cameras not be pushed on projects for which they are not the best option.
And I do agree that more people knowing how to master Red workflow is a very good thing.
Again, I have no issue with where the price of Epic sits now. Zero. I just wish the adjustment had been a bit more progressive. But I also understand that Red needs the buzz from such an announcement, as they do not buy publicity in the traditional way.
Now about that Meizler module... ;-)

 

[Jon MIchael Puntervold]

ARRI has a different model, and that model has been successfull for their market.

Well, when I invested in Red, I did it as an alternative to Arri Alexa. It seems however that Red is drifting away from the high-end market segment.

I.E. I'm not ordering a Meizler modules, as i don't know how it will feel on the shoulder. Even their own Clutch seems incompatible with it. Their best shoulder solution at this moment is probably the Epic combined with quad-module and the clutch, but without the +1 adapter it makes no sense, as we can't use the EVF and the touch screen at the same time.

I feel Red has failed with the DSMC-system. Some times I feel they shit at cinematographers. Reinventing the wheel is not always a good thing. And lowering prices is not going to get them back in the high-end. Sure, the Epic is the best "sensor/camera" for stereowork, but how many films with integrity are shot on the system in 2D?

Lowering the prices is good for many users, and I'm not hurt by it, not at all. But I'm sad that it has come to this, lowering prices to compete. Not by introduction of the new sensor, not by improving the workflow (cheaper and more efficient acceleration of Red's raw files) and certainly not by improving the ergonomics.

ARRI ALEXA is successful - not only because of the beautiful filmic images, but also because it's a complete working solution, with both an EVF and a menu system at the same time, and it is the best digital cinema shoulder camera, ergonomically made for the cinematographer.

Harsh criticism. But Red will need to impress in order to keep narrative film-makers onboard. For advertising, poster design and fashion photography - it's probably the best thing invented. But in the world of film, Red will soon become synonymous with a crowd of pretentious amateurs I'm afraid.

 

[Gunleik Groven]

Jon. You know I am a fan of what and how you do things, right?

The questions, then are...

1. Does the Epic supply you and your customers with the image quality you are expecting?
2. What would an equivalent ARRI RAW workflow cost you? Would that be sustainable?
3. What's your bet that ARRI will not replace the 2 year old Alexa with something new soonish?
4. In the current market in Norway, do you think there is room for more basic Alexa packages in a sustainable way?


For what you plan to evolve, do you think you are better off with images from one or the other camera in the long run?

I do not have your answers.
I have mine...

All the best, and still hope to work with you!

And be happy you didn't invest in F65, F35, D21, F23, F3 or D20

Can you say "huge loss on investment"

The numbers are anyway small compared to what Sony, ARRI, and Canon has done the last few years.

It is important to have some perspective on what goes on here.

We are in the middle, not at the end of a revolution.

Things will eventually settle, but imho we are 2-3 "real" generations away still.

1st gen were the sony hdcams and genesis

Then came the D21

Then red1

Then mx/alexa prores

Then alexa raw/f65/epic mx and the new sony's will be in that range.

But I predict 2-3 large shakeups more before we settle on some basic norms, like what has happened in audio.

This is not a good time for investment for pure economical reasons, unless you need touse the cameras.

Don't really remember how low I have seen the 435 going recently, but it was like I was thinking...
Hm...
That's really a nice little cam there...

Just my 2c

 

[Gunleik Groven]

Just take a quick reality check here.

Losses is about $$$, right?

What we have seen up to now, as long as there hasn't been any real competition in their segment (that is price-segment, not quality segment), is an extreme will to controll prices, even after-market prices on their products.

The inflatied after-market prices of the r1, had little to do with market-economy, but will to build customerbase and loyality.
They now have that. AND some real competition.

ARRI will sell on build quality and brand loyality for at least a generation mor of DOPs. Whatever the other guys releases.
And it will probably be pretty darned good.

But if you count the actuall value loss in $, and even in %, what RED is offering us like... Pretty cool.

You'd already "lost" close to 150$ on a f65 system... (That is not only the head, but what you would need to kinda use it, like with an epic, an ssd reader and rcx) Maybe even more.

How many "old" epics could you have had for that?

And how much has the projected rental price fallen on each?

RED is a relatively safe haven, if you manage to to give your customers a good experience and pristine results.

And that is possible, if you know what you do.


Just sayin'

 

[Jon MIchael Puntervold]

Thank you for the reply! It's good to get things off the chest. And I hope Red listens to their customers. We all need Red to stay in the high-end game, to keep prices reasonable and propel digital acquisition to something as good as photochemical film - in all parameters.

I've no belief that ALEXA or F55 would happen without Red, at least not at the same quality-level or price. Red shook up the whole bowl. I just hope they don't fall down as a semi-pro/enthusiast brand... even though it's a market with bigger volumes and better profits (probably).

 

[Jon MIchael Puntervold]

This is not a good time for investment for pure economical reasons, unless you need touse the cameras.

The biggest mistake I ever did in the field of film were not to buy a Red One instead of pimping a 1080p 1/3 camera with film-adapters and uncompressed solutions (back in 2006 btw. - but it was magic seeing live Super35 images on a HD-screen for the first time. Anyways, I made back the Scarlet investment in a couple of weeks, and the Epic has mostly been sitting on the shelf due to an unfortunate event, I got attacked by a group of toughs in April and got nearly killed. But I'm back in business and hope to recoup all the investments soonish.

 

[Michael Dalton]

Harsh criticism. But Red will need to impress in order to keep narrative film-makers onboard. For advertising, poster design and fashion photography - it's probably the best thing invented. But in the world of film, Red will soon become synonymous with a crowd of pretentious amateurs I'm afraid.

Harsh, yes, but an interesting point. I did like feeling like I was part of a semi elite club, and I feel more common today. The down side of such a great camera at a cheap price is everyone can be a filmmaker today shooting their project at the highest level. The problem with that is it will make it really hard on a business level to make proper features (meaning with a decent budget) because there will be a flood of OK filmmakers. This happened in the documentary film industry a few years ago and it has caused a collapse in market and a much wider gap between the big productions and low budget ones. Despite the ease of making a high end product, Hollywood is further away to most filmmakers then it ever has been. Like you say there is a crowd of a pretentious amateurs who are making "features" today. I would not say this is red's fault though. Jim got into this business because 1080p and 2k were going to be the replacement of film. The market of today is a natural cause and effect because of the changing technology.

 

[Gunleik Groven]

What happened in the audio industry was that in the end it came down to skills...

Where few of those who could charge 3k/day back in the early nineties, cannot still do that.
No cubase vst and a laptop has been capable to kill their business off.

 

[Björn Benckert]

Well, when I invested in Red, I did it as an alternative to Arri Alexa. It seems however that Red is drifting away from the high-end market segment.

I.E. I'm not ordering a Meizler modules, as i don't know how it will feel on the shoulder. Even their own Clutch seems incompatible with it. Their best shoulder solution at this moment is probably the Epic combined with quad-module and the clutch, but without the +1 adapter it makes no sense, as we can't use the EVF and the touch screen at the same time.

I feel Red has failed with the DSMC-system. Some times I feel they shit at cinematographers. Reinventing the wheel is not always a good thing. And lowering prices is not going to get them back in the high-end. Sure, the Epic is the best "sensor/camera" for stereowork, but how many films with integrity are shot on the system in 2D?

Lowering the prices is good for many users, and I'm not hurt by it, not at all. But I'm sad that it has come to this, lowering prices to compete. Not by introduction of the new sensor, not by improving the workflow (cheaper and more efficient acceleration of Red's raw files) and certainly not by improving the ergonomics.

ARRI ALEXA is successful - not only because of the beautiful filmic images, but also because it's a complete working solution, with both an EVF and a menu system at the same time, and it is the best digital cinema shoulder camera, ergonomically made for the cinematographer.

Harsh criticism. But Red will need to impress in order to keep narrative film-makers onboard. For advertising, poster design and fashion photography - it's probably the best thing invented. But in the world of film, Red will soon become synonymous with a crowd of pretentious amateurs I'm afraid.

The thing RED has done now is probably very right, they got one stick in ever other camera manufactures wheel.


So I think Red will be synonymous with what they actually do... The battlescene will change, things will move a little bit further away from the sensor now, since there are quite a few cameras to choose from that delivers an image that does not leave to much to complain about. So now it will be more about lenses, rigs, weight and things like the meizler that will make the difference. No other camera o nthe market can take on such a wide range of lenses as the Red's. Canon, nikon, pl all digitally and also leica, FD, BNC-R etc... try that on your Arri.
So I find Red to be very much ahead in all these other aspects not only sensor. I also think the meizler will almost change the industry just as much as the R1. A good all in a box streamlined box working wireless system with remote control for all camera features is huge, also redmote wireless controll of still lenses is big and Redcode is big... Actually redcode in my flame is insane, Arri raw can not even compare to redcode's ability to swap between proxy resolutions and FF.

So I think it will not be the camera that shows if you are a petentious amateur or profesional, its the things around the camera that is / will be the tell tail signs. That how I see it, or at least nobody took us for being film school students when we got the epic strapped to our Milo

 

[Adam Levins]

The biggest mistake I ever did in the field of film were not to buy a Red One instead of pimping a 1080p 1/3 camera with film-adapters and uncompressed solutions (back in 2006 btw. - but it was magic seeing live Super35 images on a HD-screen for the first time. Anyways, I made back the Scarlet investment in a couple of weeks, and the Epic has mostly been sitting on the shelf due to an unfortunate event, I got attacked by a group of toughs in April and got nearly killed. But I'm back in business and hope to recoup all the investments soonish.

Good to hear you are OK. Puts things into perspective a bit.

I do feel bad for people that bought an Epic in the last few months and have not built up a good client base yet as day rates are about to drop. But at the end of the day, worse things can happen!