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  • Hey all, just changed over the backend after 15 years I figured time to give it a bit of an update, its probably gonna be a bit weird for most of you and i am sure there is a few bugs to work out but it should kinda work the same as before... hopefully :)

All the Epic/Dragon Vs. Alexa/Sony threads are belong to us...

Matt Ryan said:
Converted the TIFF in Resolve to Rec709 with Arri's LogC to 709 LUT. The Alexa shot is noisier in the low end and to me, has far far far less detail, and seems to fair a tad bit worse DR wise in this comparison. If we were to bring down the Alexa low end to match noise levels the difference would be more obvious that Dragon excels here. Framing is different so can't be too definitive. Anyways, check out the files and make your own conclusions. Thanks again Kemalettin!
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#

Nice comparison, Matt. However, comparing DR through a REC709 LUT does not work meaningfully. But RedLogFilm and Arri LogC are useful gamma curves for DR evaluation.

Hans
 
The dragon looks much better dr wise, and sea water color, texture looks great too, over all at first glance the dragon absolutely looks better and more pleasing to the eyes.....
 
Hans von Sonntag said:
#

Nice comparison, Matt. However, comparing DR through a REC709 LUT does not work meaningfully. But RedLogFilm and Arri LogC are useful gamma curves for DR evaluation.

Hans
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Both in Log. Although we all know LogC is more flat than Redlogfilm...

Alexa-Epic-Log-1920.jpg
 
I find it interesting that everyone compares the Alexa in prores mode to the dragon. Why not compare apples for apples in r3d vs .ari? My new alexa XT Plus shoots open gate at 3414x2198 pixels.

It is definitely NOT noisy like people claim at the images are far more superior to my Epics. I have a dragon upgrade on order as i love the size of the Epic. When i finally get my dragon i will post examples.
 
Adam Eden said:
I find it interesting that everyone compares the Alexa in prores mode to the dragon. Why not compare apples for apples in r3d vs .ari? My new alexa XT Plus shoots open gate at 3414x2198 pixels.

It is definitely NOT noisy like people claim at the images are far more superior to my Epics. I have a dragon upgrade on order as i love the size of the Epic. When i finally get my dragon i will post examples.
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If you read his post he only had Prores on this Alexa. Alexa kills MX in DR, that's well known. There have already been Alexa RAW and Dragon RAW comparisons. Although I haven't seen any with the new olpf. Take a deep breath, the Alexa didn't fair well in this example, big deal. There will be other comparisons coming. I would also like to point out the MX and Dragon do have a lower noise floor than Alexa. Check out Geoff Boyle's CML tests and his response in that regard. He mentions Dragon is far cleaner than Alexa...
 
Adam Eden said:
I find it interesting that everyone compares the Alexa in prores mode to the dragon. Why not compare apples for apples in r3d vs .ari? My new alexa XT Plus shoots open gate at 3414x2198 pixels.

It is definitely NOT noisy like people claim at the images are far more superior to my Epics. I have a dragon upgrade on order as i love the size of the Epic. When i finally get my dragon i will post examples.
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Arri Tech reply for Prores vs Raw on Alexa
Raw uncompressed is untouched and there are some choices for de-bayering, sharpening, downscaling and compression.
In ProRes these steps are done in camera and there are few to no options to change the result.
ProRes will look slightly softer, not sure if you can call this "grain" structure.
On the Mon-out the images will always look the same. This is always an uncompressed HD feed. The difference can be seen when you pick a small segment that you blow up 500% and compare them
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there is no day and night difference between proes vs arriraw :)
Check Offhollywood Test they did it with arriraw , Dragon looks WAAAY cleaner than Alexa XT!
 
Slave to the algorithm (apologies to Grace Jones)

Slave to the algorithm (apologies to Grace Jones)

News Flash! The Alexa doesn't suck.

At the end of the day the Epic Dragon will hit performance benchmarks the Alexa never will, but for many projects the delta is meaningless - which is also why so many people go ProRes rather than ARRIRAW. Perhaps we need to better define "good enough" - when the phrase is used as an excuse it can lead to a rather compromised end product, other times it actually means what it sounds like.

The other dichotomy we need to account for in these discussions is multi-take narrative with proper G&E vs docco, sports, live, plates, etc. A seasoned DP with appropriate resources shooting "normal" material is going to put 99% of the image elements they care about inside a 6 stop window anyway, all well above the noise floor. Perhaps this is why so many productions went Alexa - DPs and camera crews feel comfortable with its form factor and operational profile, post has less data to manage and plenty of image data to make nice 1080 rec 709 pictures. Done. Even in a controlled situation I would still shoot Epic over Alexa for the asset shelf life advantage and because I like the virtual darkroom step for developing the RAW data into the RGB image I intended - but can I convince the person with the checkbook?

In the era of CMOS Bayer CFA imaging tech, I expect the various manufacturers will reach some level of parity fairly soon in terms of capture metrics. Debayering algorithms, file type and compression choices, noise reduction/rendering time ratios, post processing pathways - particularly bit depth, etc might be the more critical differentiators in terms of quality at the mastering stage than the name on the side of the camera. IMO, A.D.D gives us a glimpse of how big a piece the debayering process is. Over the next 2 years I expect we will see a lot of action across the industry in terms of debayering speed/quality.

Cheers - #19
 
I find it tiresome keep seeing these useless comparisons.
How in the hell can anyone compare an R3D to a double transcoded frame from RAW to Alexa Prores (was it even a 444 or 422HQ?) to TIFF image? How was the TIFF created? Is that even a comparison? Can we at least see an original single Prores frame?
Guys, a little modicum of balance would be nice for once…
 
Adam Eden said:
I find it interesting that everyone compares the Alexa in prores mode to the dragon. Why not compare apples for apples in r3d vs .ari? My new alexa XT Plus shoots open gate at 3414x2198 pixels.

It is definitely NOT noisy like people claim at the images are far more superior to my Epics. I have a dragon upgrade on order as i love the size of the Epic. When i finally get my dragon i will post examples.
Click to expand...

I used arriraw.

And the Alexa is great.
 
I use both cameras nearly every day and the Alexa ISNT a noisy camera period. So why do people claim it is? I know this is RED user and i have been a loyal Red advocate for years considering i owned a REDONE also.

Just this fanboyism is crazy. I have seen what Gunleik posted but again he was using the cropped sensor on the Alexa and not the open gate. Lets compare Alexa XT plus 4:3 raw with an anamorphic lens to Dragon and lets see who wins!

Thats the main reason why i bought the XT in the first place.

But after all is said and done i will own both as i definitely prefer flying a Red camera on my steadicam than an Alexa which is quadruple the weight! There are cameras to suit every need. I personally love this pics i get from my 1dc and prefer that to all of cameras i own due to the lightweight form factor and the ability to get shots that are impossible to get with a big camera.

Im just sick of waiting for the Dragon as i paid for mine in full almost a year ago and I'm tired of asking Dan Baum when am i getting it!
 
Adam Eden said:
I use both cameras nearly every day and the Alexa ISNT a noisy camera period. So why do people claim it is? I know this is RED user and i have been a loyal Red advocate for years considering i owned a REDONE also.

Just this fanboyism is crazy. I have seen what Gunleik posted but again he was using the cropped sensor on the Alexa and not the open gate. Lets compare Alexa XT plus 4:3 raw with an anamorphic lens to Dragon and lets see who wins!

Thats the main reason why i bought the XT in the first place.

But after all is said and done i will own both as i definitely prefer flying a Red camera on my steadicam than an Alexa which is quadruple the weight! There are cameras to suit every need. I personally love this pics i get from my 1dc and prefer that to all of cameras i own due to the lightweight form factor and the ability to get shots that are impossible to get with a big camera.

Im just sick of waiting for the Dragon as i paid for mine in full almost a year ago and I'm tired of asking Dan Baum when am i getting it!
Click to expand...
Why anamorphic? Dragon is not 4:3 sensor...
 
Adam Eden said:
I use both cameras nearly every day and the Alexa ISNT a noisy camera period. So why do people claim it is? I know this is RED user and i have been a loyal Red advocate for years considering i owned a REDONE also.

Just this fanboyism is crazy. I have seen what Gunleik posted but again he was using the cropped sensor on the Alexa and not the open gate. Lets compare Alexa XT plus 4:3 raw with an anamorphic lens to Dragon and lets see who wins!

Thats the main reason why i bought the XT in the first place.

But after all is said and done i will own both as i definitely prefer flying a Red camera on my steadicam than an Alexa which is quadruple the weight! There are cameras to suit every need. I personally love this pics i get from my 1dc and prefer that to all of cameras i own due to the lightweight form factor and the ability to get shots that are impossible to get with a big camera.

Im just sick of waiting for the Dragon as i paid for mine in full almost a year ago and I'm tired of asking Dan Baum when am i getting it!
Click to expand...

It's not just on Reduser where Alexa is considered noisier than Dragon. Go to CML and read over their tests... It isn't an inherently noisy camera. But when pushed the Alexa becomes noisier quicker than Dragon. That is how you should look at it.

Show me one tv show shooting Alexa that is using Open Gate... You won't find one... Shooting open gate does not improve the DR or the noise floor. All it does is increase resolution and field of view.

Also, no one paid in full for the Dragon. You put your money in your account voluntarily and it is processed once your camera is ready. You could always take that money out if you wanted to and pay once your time comes up. The delays are crap, I agree.

Here's an idea, while you wait for Dragon why not shoot the MX and XT side by side and expose them identically. Then post your results... I can bet you MX will clip the highlights but have less noise on the low end and Alexa will retain the highlights but be noisier than MX on the low end. Give it a try. I'm not saying Alexa is noisy, it just depends on exposure and the cameras noise floor.
 
Alexa doesn't have to be noisy, but I see it pushed A LOT. I work at a billion dollar network, and I see a lot of noisy Alexa footage. And I don't think it's because the camera itself is "noisy". It certainly can be. I think instead crews and shows are abusing the 800 ISO and perhaps even underexposing. When I get dailies posted or ungraded rough cuts of episodes shot on Alexa, I'm ofted SHOCKED at how dark scenes are, how underexposed they are. How few lights they are using, and how much they seem to be relying on the camera's DR and ISO to make up for it.

There was a million dollar shoot done this month where all the blacks were noisy. Of course it was cleaned up in post and no one sees it on air, but I've seen the raw footage, and its worse than anything I've captured on my Scarlet. Again, I don't think it's the camera. I've seen SICK Alexa shoots, and its an amazing camera, period. However for whatever reason it gets pushed hard. I have several gaffer friends who work on indie features who admit...they often go Alexa just so they can cut their grip package dramatically.

Either way. Both cameras are great. I love the size of Epic, and appreciate the option of $9000 upgrade. I also think the production form factor, DR and prores workflow of Alexa is killer. They are different tools. I can't afford Alexa and its probably too BIG a camera for my needs, but I recognize what a superb tool it is. As filmmakers we are better off with BOTH cameras (and others) being in the ecosystem. Its not a one camera wins all race. Its an ecosystem that thrives on choice and competition and options. I'm just thrilled we live in an age where we can choose btw ALEXA, DRAGON, F65, etc.

Great time to be a filmmaker.
 
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Kemalettin Sert said:
Why anamorphic? Dragon is not 4:3 sensor...
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It's the same reason why someone would take a 4:3 3k Alexa XT image, downscale it to HD and then upscale back to "match" the Dragon scale and then claim, that Alexa looks awful. It's dishonest and lacking in basic fairness.
 
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