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  • Hey all, just changed over the backend after 15 years I figured time to give it a bit of an update, its probably gonna be a bit weird for most of you and i am sure there is a few bugs to work out but it should kinda work the same as before... hopefully :)

All the Epic/Dragon Vs. Alexa/Sony threads are belong to us...

Speaking of stocks,

at times, with the Leica R lenses and just the right filter, the EPIC can look a bit like KODAK Vision 320T I loved the distinct look of that stock.

And the old Red original RED M. Something still wonderful about the r3d's I pull up from that sensor, especially with New Color sciences applied.

Battistella
 
Well, Geoff. Fun you should say that.

I allways liked the look of the M better (even though I have been working a lot and finishing even more on both)

My gut reaction to Dragon was that it was "like the M, but just sooooo much better".

DR of MX is obviously more.

But the looks of the two is quite different.

(bit challenging in the highlights the M. need more control over the dynamics. But it does look great)

G
 
geoffboyle said:
Yeah but in the best possible taste we don't shoot charts.

I really don't care what this chart shows.

I care about what I see in real pictures.
Click to expand...

Agreed, just give me 16.3 obvious stops in every shot with the Dragon in a real world situation. Then it's up to me to place those values and capture the entire range.
 
i am still curious about dragon's colour response against alexa. i shared latest CML test and some dragon footages with one of my favourite professional colourist and below is his response;

hi ergin

ok, i just had a chance to do some more extensive tests and i am pretty impressed with the dragon.
isolation keying seems to show better results on the dragon. more uniform, less broken. pretty good!
 
Ergin Ozturk said:
i am still curious about dragon's colour response against alexa. i shared latest CML test and some dragon footages with one of my favourite professional colourist and below is his response;

hi ergin

ok, i just had a chance to do some more extensive tests and i am pretty impressed with the dragon.
isolation keying seems to show better results on the dragon. more uniform, less broken. pretty good!
Click to expand...

Awesome.
 
Optimization

Optimization

In our brave new world of digital capture there are lots of interdependent engineering choices and strategies. Dual gain readout, more pixels crammed into S35-ish real estate, CFA orientation, channel multiplication, FPN cancellation, CMOS vs CCD, etc. Whatever path a designer/manufacturer chooses there will be trade offs, comes with the territory. For example, some cameras compress highlight values before digitization and others don't. Some do quite a bit of noise reduction via on board DSPs, others do little or none.

Choices the designer/manufacturers make in creating the hardware are inextricably linked to the firmware/software layer that turns data into images for humans. Because of this interdependency I posit that we do need to consider where a camera system is in terms of maturity/optimization when comparing results. As noted by a previous poster, the Alexa platform has had roughly 4 years of improvements that the Dragon has not. How critical is that? I would suggest that it's a big part of the equation and I'll say the same thing if a more mature Dragon platform is tested against a new sensor from ARRI someday.

BTW, I still contend that signal to noise ratio is the more salient measurement vs "stops of DR" in electronic capture systems. Moreover, the subjective "noise tolerance" of each viewer (and/or desired look of a given project) is an inescapable variable in determining "useable" DR. I'm just the kind of camera geek who could shoot charts all day long, but as Geoff notes we get paid to make the pictures the director/client seeks. As a real world consideration, I am every bit as interested in the way the highlights look as they burn out as I am in how many stops over key that happens - because the creative mission might be to deliberately blow out a good portion of the image.

Cheers - #19
 
from next months ASC :)
i pick Dragon
aMuwIgT.jpg
 
Ergin Ozturk said:
i am still curious about dragon's colour response against alexa. i shared latest CML test and some dragon footages with one of my favourite professional colourist and below is his response;

hi ergin

ok, i just had a chance to do some more extensive tests and i am pretty impressed with the dragon.
isolation keying seems to show better results on the dragon. more uniform, less broken. pretty good!
Click to expand...


I've also noticed the flexibility in grading vs the Alexa. I could create looks on Dragon, that I couldn't on the Alexa. I don't know how you can quantify post flexibility, but the Alexa RAW seemed to break down a lot quicker when being pushed.
 
Kemalettin Sert said:
from next months ASC :)
i pick Dragon
Click to expand...

This is from the February issue:
Another trend is to take one of the great advantages of digital technology — a smaller, lighter camera — and turn it into a behemoth that dwarfs even the heaviest film-camera configuration. The size of what we often work with now can be hilarious, a complete abrogation of so much of what this revolution was supposed to be about. Manufacturers whose products cannot function without a number of add-ons bear most of the responsibility, but (and I’ll be crucified for this) many camera assistants add to the problem. (For the record, I came up through the ranks of the camera department, starting as a loader and finishing as a focus puller 12 years later. I know the job.) I accept that much of what’s screwed to, taped to or plugged into the camera is there for a reason, but let’s be honest: Some of it is redundant, indulgent or just there for the ride. Compared to the streamlined efficiency of a Panavision or Arri film camera, this is an enormous step backward
Click to expand...

Oh boy, the ride never ends...
 
geoffboyle said:
Yeah, it's got a nice looking image, did I just say that!? I'm looking forward to the new OLPF etc

I wasn't that fond of the look of the MX, in fact I think I preferred the look of the M, it's a choice I'm going to make in the next month or so, a really low budget movie that I'm shooting on two Red Ones, I do have a choice of M or MX and in terms pf look I'm leaning towards the M.
Click to expand...

I understand that the MX is better in low light conditions tho. Perhaps you could shoot both and treat the MX as the faster stock for when you need to shoot lower light scenes? Depends what you are up to. Best tool for the job at hand and all that.


The current stock just couldn't cope with the contrast and looked dire, one of the prototypes looked horrid but the other worked really well and held both highlights and shadows that the Agfa didn't so the guys at Kodak said "when we make tis you'll obviously switch from the Agfa" I then told them no, I would stick with the Agfa because although the new stock was better in every technical way it just wasn't as pretty as the Agfa and I get paid to make pretty pictures not accurate ones.


I still feel the same way.
Click to expand...

I've been talking about this a lot in various contexts.
It's not just about tests and measurements because for one thing there might be something you have neglected to measure and for another thing, all the visual factors interact with one another to create an overall image (and then temporal stuff is another factor too!)

What's even worse, what one person thinks is great another might not like at all and not only that but yet again, it depends on what you are going to do with it! One film stock or camera might look great in one context and not so much in another.

This is why it is great to have a lot of choices and a larger pallete to choose from.

It's great to have your eye on the science and technology of it all but it's also good to not forget that there is an artistic aspect to it all as well.

Freya
 
Well I shot a quick little test, just for the highlights, not having sufficiency time on the set to make blacksssssss ....
But as soon as I can do them ...
Slight improvement even on blacks, but now I can not quantify ..
I leave the last 3 stop .. f5.6 / f.4 / f2.8 of the high lights .. OLD VS NEW olpf
RED did a crazy job .. the new calibration has something more 'in the colorsand DR ...'ll check with my colorist ...

Crazy this beast ..

Jarred please send email to change my old OLPF CARBON :)

Downlaod here :
https://copy.com/j4O0vaZvxZ6S

OLPF_zpsdfddd15e.jpg
[/URL][/IMG]
 
Looks good. I'm impressed with the highlights improvement and it looks like you get a bit more exposure on the low end as well. No ugly flare looks really good and the color even looks slightly better. This new olpf is great. Thank you Luigi!
 
Thank you Luigi. Nice side by side. Clearly shows the additional 1.3-ish stops found in the highlights in that T2.8 exposure. Also shows off the color stability up there as well as lack of IR contamination in the darks/shadows.

Good stuff.
 
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