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  • Hey all, just changed over the backend after 15 years I figured time to give it a bit of an update, its probably gonna be a bit weird for most of you and i am sure there is a few bugs to work out but it should kinda work the same as before... hopefully :)

All the Epic/Dragon Vs. Alexa/Sony threads are belong to us...

This is a good day. Congratulations to all involved in this test, and to all who finally put their differences aside proving that in the end it's still all about the images. Welcome back Geoff, and thanks Jarred for teaching us all a thing or two about that place they call the high road. I have a feeling that what went down here in this thread (denial, anger, pleading, depression… acceptance) perfectly captures and foreshadows what has happened and will happen overall with Dragon and Alexa in the industry. See, whether we like it or not, we all have gone through or are going through the 5 mourning stages of the death of film… Some of us are still caught in the denial stage, some of are in the anger stage. But then again some of us have gone through the acceptance stage and right on to the celebratory stage just marveling at all the technology achieved. When the arguing turns to who's 16-stops is bigger, then it's a good day indeed.
 
Gunleik Groven said:
I usually shoot "flat".

And it has no effect on the exposure.
Click to expand...

I was speaking more to the green cast that appears in the Dragon footage - especially the low end. The MX chip has always required a green correction in my experience. I grabbed these frames Dragon/Alexa 1.5 stops from the bottom exposure and pushed the levels up in Photoshop.

But perhaps the better question is, "Did they white balance on the Alexa?"

All of this begs the question of why this was never tweaked in the Color Science.
 

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geoffboyle said:
I'm glad to be back here, thanks Jared.
Maybe we can now talk about this directly and calmly.
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Good to have you back Geoff, glad all that's been put behind, water under the bridge! All tests have inherent flaws, you, Gunleik and others involved in this kind of thing sometimes take a lot of unnecessary flak but the conversation that ensues is important as long as it stays civil. Me and a lot of redusers appreciate what guys like you do.
 
Mark Wilkinson said:
I was speaking more to the green cast that appears in the Dragon footage - especially the low end. The MX chip has always required a green correction in my experience. I grabbed these frames Dragon/Alexa 1.5 stops from the bottom exposure and pushed the levels up in Photoshop.

But perhaps the better question is, "Did they white balance on the Alexa?"

All of this begs the question of why this was never tweaked in the Color Science.
Click to expand...
That green cast is OLPF issue and old color science i think.
http://www.reduser.net/forum/showthread.php?111400-Dragon-Flare
 
Gunleik Groven said:
There is a difference between filtration (optical path) and decoding (colorscience). Both can change, and seem to change.
Click to expand...
Which is to say…?

G - is the green shift not something you've noticed before in Red footage? Did you white balance either camera in this test?
 

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I have seen shifts, and they have been different on different MXs... :)

I am not saying the green is not gonna be there after the new colorscience/decoding, as I have not seen anything but Phils pictures, but I have a hunch that as Phil was raving about colors been "even better", I can see where that might happen.
 
Hm. Let's hope it goes away.
 
Geoff

Welcome back to the forum.

One thing we all share is passion and Geoff, your posts are certainly passionate, but maybe cutting the swearing and aggression in some of your online posts will win you more friends. I look upon our industry as a big family where anger and aggression are not welcome.

There is a perception that this forum is filled with Red fanboys (and girls). While we are all fans of RED, we are at the same time happy to point out failings and areas that we feel RED can improve on.

I think your tests on Dragon are fair and your comments very worthy, however there can be no harm in adding the caveat that since testing a new OLPF and Colour Science have been developed, further improving Dragon.

I look forward to your future posts on this forum Geoff and I continue to enjoy CML.

Best wishes

Scott
 
Mark Wilkinson said:
I don't think so. The flare issue seems to be a magenta shift.
Click to expand...

The flare itself tends to be magenta, but there's also a noticeable green shift (non-flare regions of the frame) in some of those shots. In particular, the stone wall shot and the one with Phil holding a match, both those have a green hue with the old OLPF. At least to my eye they do.
 
Gunleik Groven said:
Dragon is a great camera.

I totally get Johns perspective on the testing bit...

One of my reasons for posting images and not only charts, really.

Even if some do not get the implications of "tests", most people can recognize a tricky image...

It's not about numbers in the end... :)
Shut up and shoot :)

1658421_10152199683245126_1985114745_o.jpg
Click to expand...

That is one hell fo a yummy image - convincing of Dragon, yes, but also of your talent.
 
I loaded 2 CML test RAW files to Davinci Resolve and compared Dragon Alexa and Epic footages.
this is what i found.

Highlights:
Alexa :+4.5 (A1) or 5 (A2)
Dragon : +3.5 (A1) or 4 (A2)
Epic : +2.5 (A1) or 3 (A2)

Lowlights
Alexa : -5 (B1) or -5.5 (B2) Noisy
Dragon : -5 (B1) or -5.5 (B2) Clear
Epic : -4.5(B1) or -5 (B2) Very noisy

A1: visible difference between lightest 2 bars - co clipping
A2: no visible difference between lightest 2 bars - clipping
B1: visible difference between darkest 2 bars
B2: no visible difference between darkest 2 bars

soon if new OLFP has 1.3 stop in High as Phil said and some stops in Low then Dragon is going to have more DR than Alexa in both High and Low.


CML tests i used:
http://www.cinematography.net/UWE/index.html
http://www.cinematography.net/edited-pages/epic-alexa-f3.htm
 
Cool test Ergin. It seems that the way Dragon was exposed in this test gave it more clarity in the darks at the expense of highlight protection. Any chance you'd post some images?
 
Interesting

Ergin Ozturk said:
I loaded 2 CML test RAW files to Davinci Resolve and compared Dragon Alexa and Epic footages.
this is what i found.

Highlights:
Alexa :+4.5 (A1) or 5 (A2)
Dragon : +3.5 (A1) or 4 (A2)
Epic : +2.5 (A1) or 3 (A2)

Lowlights
Alexa : -5 (B1) or -5.5 (B2) Noisy
Dragon : -5 (B1) or -5.5 (B2) Clear
Epic : -4.5(B1) or -5 (B2) Very noisy

A1: visible difference between lightest 2 bars - co clipping
A2: no visible difference between lightest 2 bars - clipping
B1: visible difference between darkest 2 bars
B2: no visible difference between darkest 2 bars

CML tests i used:
http://www.cinematography.net/UWE/index.html
http://www.cinematography.net/edited-pages/epic-alexa-f3.htm
Click to expand...
 
Niko Pueringer said:
Cool test Ergin. It seems that the way Dragon was exposed in this test gave it more clarity in the darks at the expense of highlight protection. Any chance you'd post some images?
Click to expand...

Dragon - 3.5 no clip

Dragon-noclip.jpg


Dragon - 4 clip

Dragon-clip.jpg


Alexa - 4.5 no clip

Alexa-noclip.jpg


Alexa - 5 Clip

Alexa-clip.jpg


above numbers are in parallel with Geoff's first thoughts about test;

"Just looking at the first results and of course I rushed to see the
differences between Alexa and Dragon.

Looking at the differences between the top and bottom chips of the DSC
Chroma du Monde chart I can just distinguish the difference between the
bottom two steps at minus 5 stops on both cameras, when we go to the
highlights I can see 5 stops on the Alexa and 4 on the Dragon.

However, the Dragon images are far quieter, a lot lot quieter.

I expect that pretty soon the Dragon will match and maybe surpass the Alexa
for DR.

As far as colour goes I'm still checking but I'm really impressed with the
Dragon so far."
 
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