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  • Hey all, just changed over the backend after 15 years I figured time to give it a bit of an update, its probably gonna be a bit weird for most of you and i am sure there is a few bugs to work out but it should kinda work the same as before... hopefully :)

Alien: Covenant Not Being Shot on Red?

I was wondering the same thing, M. Halsell.
And thanks for easing into that comment, Julio. Some don't care how they come off.
 
In the early RED days I was guilty as charged, over beer and pretzels, of promoting or bragging to peers about films that were shot on RED cameras. Only later to learn that the feature was not shot exclusively with a single type of or brand camera.

I've always had it my head that the camera used to capture the lead performances was considered the principal photography camera and that designation could not be co-shared.
 
I was hoping they'd go Red again, but according to this interview with Dariusz, he wanted Alexa 65, main reason was the larger sensor.

 
Vadim Bobkovsky said:
I was hoping they'd go Red again, but according to this interview with Dariusz, he wanted Alexa 65, main reason was the larger sensor.

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Then I doubt that if they didn't go Alexa 65 they would have gone with a regular Alexa. If not 65 it would probably made more sense with an 8K or 6K Weapon if sensor size is their thing.
But the image in the first post does look like having a 65mm characteristic.
 
I checked the movie theater downstairs. 11 movies, 10 shot on Alexa, 1 on Red (X-Men, and it's because the Alexa mini was not available at that time according to the cinematographer). Less and less. Simultaneously, Red improved their services, their communication, their image and reputation among cinematographers. The look is almost the only reason why people choose the Alexa now. Even if Red users keep telling that it's raw and you can get whatever look you want, it's not totally true, there is a difference. Raw is raw, but isn't it possible for Red to tweak the redlogfilm, or to make a second one, less harsh, with different color hues, and the look many are looking for (Kodak/Alexa/Varicam)? And maybe a new low contrast OLPF close to the Alexa. Arri stole some stuffs from Red, maybe it's time to go the other way around now. I don't know if it's possible, if there are native hues and curves already burnt into the sensor specs. Is redlogfilm already a lut limiting the raw informations? Just asking.
 
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I still think it's more a psychologic problem - ARRI still gives a DoP the feeling of being something special = big heavy expensive equipment. RED became the camera for "everyone" - this sadly this is not what a big time DoP is looking for. That booth cameras are at least equal is proven by the fact, that on many big time movies both cameras are used and matched very well to each other. I think RED needs to release a 65mm version at an insane price tag with all the benefits of the current RED technology... And maybe even under a different Brand name....
 
Sensor size is only a part of the thing that's going to be important. The colors are the most important thing. That's why I think that while Red can do a special 65mm camera, it would be much better if the next sensor that we can upgrade to is still 6K but beats the hell out of everything else and Arri when it comes to color handling.

But I still think that we need a new color science for Dragon. There has to be a DragonColor3 incoming or something, just do something that comes closer to the Alexa colors... that is what people want.


The rest of the reasons is only because of brands. People, even many top cinematographer names, just don't know much about digital cinematography and want to just continue work like they did with 35mm film, which Arri is better at mimicing in terms of workflow.
 
Brian D. Goff said:
I still think it's more a psychologic problem - ARRI still gives a DoP the feeling of being something special = big heavy expensive equipment = big d..ck!. RED became the camera for "everyone" - this sadly this is not what a big time DoP is looking for. That booth cameras are at least equal is proven by the fact, that on many big time movies both cameras are used and matched very well to each other. I think RED needs to release a 65mm version at an insane price tag with all the benefits of the current RED technology... And maybe even under a different Brand name....
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Im sorry but thats just a horrible statement. Thats is a statement some one who's not been in this business for a long tim e would make. Cinematographers in the class of Roger Deakins, Emmanuel Lubezki do not care about dick size they use the tool they feel is best for the film or the tool they like even if it is or it isn't the best. your statement is the kind of thing some one first year out of film school would think and say. Trust me these guys don't need a camera to feel that, they command millions of dollars and hundreds of crew members . The big time DP's don't care what the $1200 a day rental coast of an alexa is they just ordered $millions worth of lights for 6 months . Also what about all the great women DP's are they also choosing camera based on ego? In short I think your comment insults Dp's in that class and also Dp's in every tier / class . Basically your saying unless some one picks a RED they are just stroking their ego and they have no ability to like any other camera
 
Martin Ubilluz said:
Im sorry but thats just a horrible statement. Thats is a statement some one who's not been in this business for a long tim e would make. Cinematographers in the class of Roger Deakins, Emmanuel Lubezki do not care about dick size they use the tool they feel is best for the film or the tool they like even if it is or it isn't the best. your statement is the kind of thing some one first year out of film school would think and say. Trust me these guys don't need a camera to feel that, they command millions of dollars and hundreds of crew members . The big time DP's don't care what the $1200 a day rental coast of an alexa is they just ordered $millions worth of lights for 6 months . Also what about all the great women DP's are they also choosing camera based on ego? In short I think your comment insults Dp's in that class and also Dp's in every tier / class . Basically your saying unless some one picks a RED they are just stroking their ego and they have no ability to like any other camera
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Yes, that's what I'm saying after over 20 years in this business I think I have an idea how it works - if you find any ego, then in the film business - sure, not every one, but a lot. But even when the RED one was the only camera shooting beautiful 4k, you would have every second DPs raving about the 1080p Alexa, claiming roll - off and color blabla. Because it scared the hell out of them, that 35mm no longer was the holy gral, meant for the privileged few. But yes, I'm a RED fan boy and therefor just the same a d..ck when it comes to these things - and that's why I'm totally sure that the major reason Arri is so strong, is simply because RED cameras are too close to the masses - it's not sexy enough, because "everybody" can have one.... As a Steadicam-ops NOT using a Pro or a Tiffen - I've heard it all - the "Professional Equipment - Argument"
Now this statement is NOT aiming at everyone - christ, of course you have high class DPs that will pull it off with an iphone and don't give a damm what camera. I'm just taking a major swing with my statement, so don't get upset;-)

PS: the most disappointing looking film I saw lately in terms of resolution, dynamic range and color" was "the hatefull 8" - so much for the "right choice of camera"
 
My statement still stands . This convo was about a top teir dp filming a top teir film . You statement seems to go with high school students. Not film makers . People look at other things other then resolution . So you should stop insulting people just because your choice and only choice is red . You have to remember there's other opinions and yours is not always correct . That does sound funny because what I'm writing is an opinion . But what I'm saying is theses guys know more then you and if they chose something it because of them liking something better then another camera and not to do with dick size . Like I said the camera is the cheapest part of a film set like that if he wants to show a dick size like you say he will order 4 techno cranes and a helicopter and then not use them . Before making a blanket statement refer to what the topic is about and take mind of who your insulting. Probably many women DP's your insulting also .
You really think CHIVO needs an ego boost by selecting a camera like Alexa ? The mans got 3 oscars . He can just show that to boost his ego .

Alexa classic will rent for less then $1000 it's very accessible at any second to the masses just as much as a red . So I'm not quite sure what you mean by it's not available to every one .
 
Between reading the discussion about tool vs tool and watching the Dariusz interview, it dawned on me, there are really only 2 digital camera systems that get the bulk of the feature work. And 2 others that get honorable mention.
 
Brian D. Goff said:
PS: the most disappointing looking film I saw lately in terms of resolution, dynamic range and color" was "the hatefull 8" - so much for the "right choice of camera"
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Mine was "Cloverfield Lane" - I couldn't believe how noisy and video looking it was - First thing I did after the movie was to go check out the technical on IMDB and found out it was RED Dragon. All that stuff is subjective - Personally, I was blown away by H8 colors, depth and dynamic range.
 
Brian D. Goff said:
Yes, that's what I'm saying after over 20 years in this business I think I have an idea how it works - if you find any ego, then in the film business - sure, not every one, but a lot. But even when the RED one was the only camera shooting beautiful 4k, you would have every second DPs raving about the 1080p Alexa, claiming roll - off and color blabla. Because it scared the hell out of them, that 35mm no longer was the holy gral, meant for the privileged few. But yes, I'm a RED fan boy and therefor just the same a d..ck when it comes to these things - and that's why I'm totally sure that the major reason Arri is so strong, is simply because RED cameras are too close to the masses - it's not sexy enough, because "everybody" can have one.... As a Steadicam-ops NOT using a Pro or a Tiffen - I've heard it all - the "Professional Equipment - Argument"
Now this statement is NOT aiming at everyone - christ, of course you have high class DPs that will pull it off with an iphone and don't give a damm what camera. I'm just taking a major swing with my statement, so don't get upset;-)

PS: the most disappointing looking film I saw lately in terms of resolution, dynamic range and color" was "the hatefull 8" - so much for the "right choice of camera"
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I have to side with Martin on this one. I feel I have some insight, having worked with some ASC cinematographers and many talented ones not in the ASC. Are there egos in this business? Absolutely. Do cinematographers have it in for RED? I'm sure there may be a few who for one reason or another won't shoot on RED. Maybe they had a bad experience, maybe they simply don't like the image or the workflow. But I think for the most part they make the choices based on what gets them the desired results. Same for people who choose RED. There are reasons why they feel it helps them achieve their goals. It could be the actual image, it could be physical size of the camera, it could be any number of things. But choosing a camera because it gives you some kind of status or equates you with the best. I don't think that's generally the case and I have seen a number of productions utilize RED and Alexa, sometimes side by side in the same scene.
ACs and camera ops, now that's a whole other can of worms and there is absolutely bias at times and sometimes not warranted. But those folks also have their jobs on the line every minute of the day, so perhaps understandable why they might like gear they know well and are comfortable with.

I can tell you one thing many cinematographers are not obsessed with and that's resolution. They may want more or less of it but from what I've observed they have other needs that are higher priority.
 
Just a reminder that the Alexa 65 is probably the best camera in the world. I haven't checked it out myself, but a 65mm sensor with the color and sensor quality of the regular Alexa in 6K is not something Red can compete with at this time. The 8K is close of course, but we seriously need a color science update to our sensors.
 
Christoffer Glans said:
Just a reminder that the Alexa 65 is probably the best camera in the world. I haven't checked it out myself, but a 65mm sensor with the color and sensor quality of the regular Alexa in 6K is not something Red can compete with at this time. The 8K is close of course, but we seriously need a color science update to our sensors.
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"The best" for what? Large format is great for things like wide vistas, but it's not so great for character driven dramas that require a lot of tightly focused closeups. Just trying to achieve that in large format is difficult at best, with the result often being a lot of soft shots or focus buzzes on movement. Large format has its place, and while I would say that the A65 is a very good camera, it's not "the best" for everything.
 
M Most said:
"The best" for what? Large format is great for things like wide vistas, but it's not so great for character driven dramas that require a lot of tightly focused closeups. Just trying to achieve that in large format is difficult at best, with the result often being a lot of soft shots or focus buzzes on movement. Large format has its place, and while I would say that the A65 is a very good camera, it's not "the best" for everything.
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We are speaking purely technical terms here, but as an aesthetic you can do drama with 65mm, you just have to use wider lenses and also smaller aperture. It's a cinema camera and in cinemas on a large screen you will get those closeups but in much wider shots. That's the key for working with that format if you are doing close ups.

If you are doing a "drama" with 65mm you will probably have a visual style closer to Cronenberg or Iñárritu. So I don't think you can say that it doesn't work for character driven dramas, it's just another kind of visuals. Not all character driven dramas are made with 50mm s35mm close ups framed just under the neck. Just look at Tarantinos "The Hateful 8", which is essentially a black box theatre play on 70mm projection.
 
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