Alien: Covenant Not Being Shot on Red?

[Steve Sherrick]

Steve, your sage comments are always good reading. Where does color fidelity fall in the list priorities?

Very high, but also a complex subject as color is affected by so many things. The sensor and the color science being one part of that complex color chain. Lenses, lighting, filtration, grading, etc. also have an impact on color. So, while the camera plays a vital role, it is how all of these elements combine to form the images that is important I would say.

 

[Ugo Del]

So this new Panavision camera proves that something is a bit off with Red color science but that something can be made to improve it. Panavision didn't keep Red color science and asked Light Iron to create a new one. From Peter Lyons Collister: "It was an impressive demo at the ASC clubhouse. Cioni and his crew have cooked up an addition to Graeme's color science for what they hope is better skin tones out of the box". It's refreshing, as a Red user, to see that Panavision chose Red electronic and sensor. I'm pretty confident that the quality of the footage of the Panavision will be great, and when we will see what the dragon sensor is capable of out of the box, tweaked by some cinema guys, I hope we will be proposed some new color science on our regular DSMC2s.

 

[Vadim Bobkovsky]

You can tweak current r3ds in every way you want in post or apply 3D LUT of preference, it's not terribly hard to get pleasing cinematic image out of raw material. Another thing is "filmic" image right outta the cam. I believe Arri nailed that part with the Alexa, that's why a lot of old and new cinematographers even say "don't touch that, it's perfect" to their colorists and only do fine-tuning. LightIron tweaked the Dragon color science according to their and Panavision tastes, that's cool. Also, the fact that Weapon and DXL accept 1D and 3D LUTs is the answer to prayers of some, that wanted a "built-in FilmConvert" for lack of a better word. Even very high-profile cinematographers talked about this, in a sense, that they'd enjoy switching between accurately implemented "film stock emulations" right on the set, rather than starting from scratch in DI. Well, they do that now, working closely with their trusted colorists. Still, for many having a pleasing "filmic defaults" is a big deal.

Only thing I'm kinda sad about, that if Dariusz didn't get to play with Alexa65 as he clearly wanted. If you plan to go full-IMAX (meaning blowup to the actual 15/70), then finish in 4K and use large-format system, Digital 2K and 70mm prints from 2K on a giant screen looks funny and it was the reason I stopped going to the local IMAX like three years ago (at least they're investing pretty penny in 4K laser projection now). My opinion is irrelevant, of course, but I thought "Prometheus", "The Martian" and and Zemeckis' "The Walk" looked great. I'll be happy if Mr. Wolski returns to do something in VistaVision format some day in the future.

 

[Ugo Del]

You can tweak current r3ds in every way you want in post or apply 3D LUT of preference, it's not terribly hard to get pleasing cinematic image out of raw material. Another thing is "filmic" image right outta the cam. I believe Arri nailed that part with the Alexa, that's why a lot of old and new cinematographers even say "don't touch that, it's perfect" to their colorists and only do fine-tuning. LightIron tweaked the Dragon color science according to their and Panavision tastes, that's cool. Also, the fact that Weapon and DXL accept 1D and 3D LUTs is the answer to prayers of some, that wanted a "built-in FilmConvert" for lack of a better word. Even very high-profile cinematographers talked about this, in a sense, that they'd enjoy switching between accurately implemented "film stock emulations" right on the set, rather than starting from scratch in DI. Well, they do that now, working closely with their trusted colorists. Still, for many having a pleasing "filmic defaults" is a big deal.

Isn't Redlogfilm already a LUT? Making the blues more cyan and the red darker and pinker to look like alexa brings noise. Trying to soften the skins with the curves to look like alexa is pushing the image a bit far too. Etc etc. Isn't it possible to make a new redlogfilm with these hues and curves variations baked in and ready to be graded? Is Light Iron only doing a LUT like redcolor and redgamma or making a new redlogfilm?

 

[M.Halsell]

Isn't Redlogfilm already a LUT? Making the blues more cyan and the red darker and pinker to look like alexa brings noise. Trying to soften the skins with the curves to look like alexa is pushing the image a bit far too. Etc etc. Isn't it possible to make a new redlogfilm with these hues and curves variations baked in and ready to be graded? Is Light Iron only doing a LUT like redcolor and redgamma or making a new redlogfilm?

Given the importance of this account, Pana vision probably has a bit more sensor access related to tuning color. Michael has worked intimately with a lot of cameras, he knows his stuff and all parties involved will be a win, win. And I don't think the special color sauce, if it works, will be given away to the non Panavision crowd. The knock has against RED has been Arri's organic color palette. This event along with the sensor size should close the gap.

 

[Ugo Del]

Given the importance of this account, Pana vision probably has a bit more sensor access related to tuning color. Michael has worked intimately with a lot of cameras, he knows his stuff and all parties involved will be a win, win. And I don't think the special color sauce, if it works, will be given away to the non Panavision crowd. The knock has against RED has been Arri's organic color palette. This event along with the sensor size should close the gap.

If the color science is crazy good, maybe Red will not put Panavision CS in their DSMC2, but, if everybody is praising it, telling it's so much better than the Red CS, I guess Red is not silly and will cook a new colorscience. So anyway, We all should get something from this partnership, directly or not. Just the fact that the Panavision team said they improved the skin tones means it was not optimized. So something should be done one way or another. We'll get an answer with the first footages.

 

[Matt Ryan]

So this new Panavision camera proves that something is a bit off with Red color science but that something can be made to improve it. Panavision didn't keep Red color science and asked Light Iron to create a new one. From Peter Lyons Collister: "It was an impressive demo at the ASC clubhouse. Cioni and his crew have cooked up an addition to Graeme's color science for what they hope is better skin tones out of the box". It's refreshing, as a Red user, to see that Panavision chose Red electronic and sensor. I'm pretty confident that the quality of the footage of the Panavision will be great, and when we will see what the dragon sensor is capable of out of the box, tweaked by some cinema guys, I hope we will be proposed some new color science on our regular DSMC2s.

Yes, and I'm hoping that color science makes its way to Weapon cams.... Some of the ASC guys at the demo said the color was amazing and the dynamic range and highlight rolloff was great. Some even said they would have never imagined it was a RED sensor based on the footage. So I'm really hoping that color science carries over for all of our sake...

 

[Christoffer Glans]

Yes, and I'm hoping that color science makes its way to Weapon cams.... Some of the ASC guys at the demo said the color was amazing and the dynamic range and highlight rolloff was great. Some even said they would have never imagined it was a RED sensor based on the footage. So I'm really hoping that color science carries over for all of our sake...

I've heard such things sometimes... with images shot on a regular MX or Dragon. When people don't know, people tend to be free of judgement. There's a lot of Red hate among many cinematographers based on nothing more than a lack of true experience with it and no one mastering the workflow of it.

But I do believe the color science is better, I mean, it's at least newer. We've had the same color science for quite some time now and I'm really curious on what's going on at Red on this topic. We've got a new camera hardware, a better handling of the Dragon sensor, but we have the same old color science. Either we get the Light Iron CS or we seriously need a new Red CS. But what about productions that need some gimbal shots or smaller cameras but are shot with the Panavision as their main camera? Wouldn't the best small additional camera be a Red Weapon? Then the Light Iron CS should be applied there as well in order for it to be consistent. So I seriously hope we get the option to use the Light Iron CS. If anything just sell it to us, it would probably be worth the investment.

 

[Nick Morrison]

But I do believe the color science is better, I mean, it's at least newer..

My guess is RED has learned a lot from this partnership as well. I think it's safe to assume future color updates will reflect this new collaboration...to the benefit of the entire RED ecosystem...

 

[Vadim Bobkovsky]

It makes total sense for Panavision to have a "panavised" companion camera for drone, gimbal work etc. Let's say A-cam is Millenium DXL and then there's compact ultra-light cameras like Carbon Weapon (with the same LightIron CS built-in) when needed. Kinda like regular Alexa or A65 + Alexa Mini.

 

[Christoffer Glans]

It makes total sense for Panavision to have a "panavised" companion camera for drone, gimbal work etc. Let's say A-cam is Millenium DXL and then there's compact ultra-light cameras like Carbon Weapon (with the same LightIron CS built-in) when needed. Kinda like regular Alexa or A65 + Alexa Mini.

Except that the Alexa Mini doesn't come close to the resolution of the Alexa 65. It's like the awful jump between IMAX and s35mm Anamorphics in the Batman movies, where you see crisp sharp IMAX footage intercutting with soft bokeh, low resolution (in comparison) s35mm footage. At least a Panavision intercut with an 8K CF Weapon would be the same image in sensor size, optical and resolution. That's an extreme difference in quality compared to working with 65 and a mini.

 

[Vadim Bobkovsky]

It's like the awful jump between IMAX and s35mm Anamorphics in the Batman movies, where you see crisp sharp IMAX footage intercutting with soft bokeh, low resolution (in comparison) s35mm footage.

Interstellar too. At times it was so distracting, that jumping from full screen spherical IMAX scenes right into widescreen anamorphic look really took me out of the movie. It's not just a sharpness, clarity and grain texture difference, it's switching from spherical to ana and back, just completely different look and aesthetics. Wish they would just go all spherical at least, or shoot the non-IMAX stuff on VistaVision camera (lt was used a little bit in some scenes).

 

[Christoffer Glans]

Interstellar too. At times it was so distracting, that jumping from full screen spherical IMAX scenes right into widescreen anamorphic look really took me out of the movie. It's not just a sharpness, clarity and grain texture difference, it's switching from spherical to ana and back, just completely different look and aesthetics. Wish they would just go all spherical at least, or shoot the non-IMAX stuff on VistaVision camera (lt was used a little bit in some scenes).

Yeah, I don't understand why they did it inconsistently. Why not do it entirely on 65 or entirely on Vista Vision. I understand costs, but the changes are too much. It would even be better to shoot digital on the non-65 material.

 

[M Most]

Interstellar too. At times it was so distracting, that jumping from full screen spherical IMAX scenes right into widescreen anamorphic look really took me out of the movie. It's not just a sharpness, clarity and grain texture difference, it's switching from spherical to ana and back, just completely different look and aesthetics. Wish they would just go all spherical at least, or shoot the non-IMAX stuff on VistaVision camera (lt was used a little bit in some scenes).

I think you would have a hard time finding any "civilians" (i.e., anyone not associated with the film industry) who noticed any of that or were "taken out of the movie" by any of it.

 

[Christoffer Glans]

I think you would have a hard time finding any "civilians" (i.e., anyone not associated with the film industry) who noticed any of that or were "taken out of the movie" by any of it.

Then why bother with Imax in that case if your argument is that no one notices? Why does Nolan bother with film instead of digital? As professionals we push limits because WE want to see something great, the audience might not notice, but they will perhaps feel the difference. As for the "civilians" I know plenty of people who don't work with film who noticed the change in aspect ratio and sharpness. It's pretty visible, not something you miss very likely.

 

[Vadim Bobkovsky]

I think you would have a hard time finding any "civilians" (i.e., anyone not associated with the film industry) who noticed any of that or were "taken out of the movie" by any of it.

Actually, some people are put off by that jumping in formats, for instance one guy liked it, called it a cool gimmick, a few others just went "what the hell was that, why?". Those who were at "true" IMAX screening said as if Nolan was there "next time grow a pair and just film everything in full blown IMAX". But you're not wrong, it's hardly 10% of the audience that noticed that and verbally expressed their thoughts about it.

 

[David Mullen ASC]

Except that the Alexa Mini doesn't come close to the resolution of the Alexa 65. It's like the awful jump between IMAX and s35mm Anamorphics in the Batman movies, where you see crisp sharp IMAX footage intercutting with soft bokeh, low resolution (in comparison) s35mm footage. At least a Panavision intercut with an 8K CF Weapon would be the same image in sensor size, optical and resolution. That's an extreme difference in quality compared to working with 65 and a mini.

When switching between film formats you can see or sense the changes due to grain enlargement, but for the most part this is not an issue with digital which is why it is easier to crop & enlarge footage. Besides, most people who saw "The Revenant" did not think that the Alexa 65 footage jumped out from the regular Alexa footage, which is one reason so many people had a hard time figuring out how much of the movie was shot on the Alexa 65.

Also, plenty of movies have mixed Alexa footage with Red footage without there being obvious jumps in resolution, especially if the higher resolution camera is used for wide shots and the lower resolution camera is used for tighter shots.

 

[Mark K.]

Except that the Alexa Mini doesn't come close to the resolution of the Alexa 65. It's like the awful jump between IMAX and s35mm Anamorphics in the Batman movies, where you see crisp sharp IMAX footage intercutting with soft bokeh, low resolution (in comparison) s35mm footage. At least a Panavision intercut with an 8K CF Weapon would be the same image in sensor size, optical and resolution. That's an extreme difference in quality compared to working with 65 and a mini.

You don't really believe that do you Chris? Have you seen The Revenant? Can you honestly pick out the Alexa 65 shots from the rest of the regular Alexa footage that comprises the bulk of the film?

I sure as hell couldn't.

 

[Christoffer Glans]

When switching between film formats you can see or sense the changes due to grain enlargement, but for the most part this is not an issue with digital which is why it is easier to crop & enlarge footage. Besides, most people who saw "The Revenant" did not think that the Alexa 65 footage jumped out from the regular Alexa footage, which is one reason so many people had a hard time figuring out how much of the movie was shot on the Alexa 65.

Also, plenty of movies have mixed Alexa footage with Red footage without there being obvious jumps in resolution, especially if the higher resolution camera is used for wide shots and the lower resolution camera is used for tighter shots.

You don't really believe that do you Chris? Have you seen The Revenant? Can you honestly pick out the Alexa 65 shots from the rest of the regular Alexa footage that comprises the bulk of the film?

I sure as hell couldn't.

Of course digital is less obvious, but most screenings I've heard of and seen myself here in northen europe have been in 2K of The Revenant. Of course 2K won't be different since both formats scale down, but in 4K one camera is upscaling and the other is downscaling. I'd like to know if anyone who sat close to an IMAX 4K projection of that movie could see the difference? If it were ever mastered in true 4K that is.

 

[Ugo Del]

http://www.imdb.com/title/tt2316204/technical?ref_=tt_dt_spec
They refreshed the page. So Alien: Covenant is shot on the regular Alexa.