ALEXA vs RED thread in Creative Cow

[Tim Whitcomb]

With both EPIC and Scarlet, you can record RAW to CF or SSD AND record 720P, 1080P or 2K RGB (your choice of flavors) out the HD-SDI. There are options to do that now from 3rd parties and we will have our own soon. That gives you the best of both worlds if you need it instantly.

If not, put a quick grade on the RAW, use a RED Rocket, and transcode realtime to whatever you need. Then you still have the best of both worlds.

Other options... open R3D native in any of many 3rd party post workflows.

Jim

Learned a teeny bit since ice packs and an on button on the set of Che' , eh?

simple workflow indeed, yet so many people choose to complicate it in order to be the "expert" - in their field. But the smart ones like Cioni at Lightiron are educationg everyone, so it becomes ubiquitous. Plenty of work out there for heavy iron in many markets.

Supporting a knowledgable light iron user base usually means a well prepped project for online in the future, if the project sells and they decide they want professional finishing and need multiple deliverables.

Data Management (and clever storage) is the key to survival in RED's future world, imho. Bring on the Cloud!

 

[Mark Toia]

With both EPIC and Scarlet, you can record RAW to CF or SSD AND record 720P, 1080P or 2K RGB (your choice of flavors) out the HD-SDI. There are options to do that now from 3rd parties and we will have our own soon. That gives you the best of both worlds if you need it instantly.

If not, put a quick grade on the RAW, use a RED Rocket, and transcode realtime to whatever you need. Then you still have the best of both worlds.

Other options... open R3D native in any of many 3rd party post workflows.

Jim

PRO RES 4444 output as REDLOG, or REDLOG 2 or CinemaREDLOG... ?
The flatter the better for me. We still want the Raws though.. Love the RAW files!!!
We do go back to them from time to time if we have shot accidentally under or over exposed to far for the PRO RES to be saved.

But having (not so baked in coloured) 4444 PRO RES REDLOG files, is just awesome!!!

I'm doing this now through RED ROCKET (thank the lord that exists)
But would be a real treat if he camera made them in real time side by side with the R3D's.

Love ya work

 

[Mark Toia]

Actually!
That all said. If the rumors are founded and the new (upcoming) FCP just lets us drop R3D's directly onto the time line and be able to grade and edit in real time.. WEEEEEEELLLLL Screw Pro res or any sort of silly transcoding.

Lets see if Apple steps up. RED has done enough, It's there turn now.
They have most certainly been slipping on the PRO front the last couple of years.

 

[Peter Moretti]

Workflow has always been a top priority. That's why we have put so much effort into it since the beginning. ...

Jim,

I highly respect you and the Red team and am duely impressed with what all that you have done. But I have to, humbly, call you out on this one.

I was at Kappa Studios when Red was first being introduced. And it was clear as day (for about two years) that workflow was absolutely disregarded as far as Avid users were concerned. Now I have no beef w/ FCP and think it's a wonderful program, but the fact of the matter is that most large projects were and still are cut on Avid. Of course FCP has made worthy inroads... which it should as it's an excellent suite, but there are some areas that are still strongholds for Avid. That's just a fact.

Red wanted to be the new standard for high-end filmmaking and replace film, but it stiff-armed the editing platform that most feature films and one-hour dramas were/are being cut on.

That has left a bad taste in some people's mouths. Of course time heals all wounds and MC's HD frame size doesn't help matters for Avid. But let's be candid, Avid was seen as a dead-end legacy system not worthy of being on Red's radar screen when the camera was first released. Red was to be the future of cameras and FCP was already the future of NLE's.

Again, Jim and everyone at Red, you deserve our respect and the dialog you have here should be admired by all, so please don't take this personally or as meant to be confrontational. I'm just calling a spade a spade as I see it, and I'm hardly alone with this perspective. And believe it or not, I actually spent a fair amount of time convincing other Avid users that the Red workflow wasn't THAT bad.

All that said, peace to all. :emote_hippie:

 

[Mark Toia]

Jim,

I highly respect you and the Red team and am duely impressed with what all that you have done. But I have to, humbly, call you out on this one.

I was at Kappa Studios when Red was first being introduced. And it was clear as day (for about two years) that workflow was absolutely disregarded as far as Avid users were concerned. Now I have no beef w/ FCP and think it's a wonderful program, but the fact of the matter is that most large projects were and still are cut on Avid. Of course FCP has made worthy inroads... which it should as it's an excellent suite, but there are some areas that are still strongholds for Avid. That's just a fact.

Red wanted to be the new standard for high-end filmmaking and replace film, but it stiff-armed the editing platform that most feature films and one-hour dramas were/are being cut on.

That has left a bad taste in some people's mouths. Of course time heals all wounds and MC's HD frame size doesn't help matters for Avid. But let's be candid, Avid was seen as a dead-end legacy system not worthy of being on Red's radar screen when the camera was first released. Red was to be the future of cameras and FCP was already the future of NLE's.

Again, Jim and everyone at Red, you deserve our respect and the dialog you have here should be admired by all, so please don't take this personally or as meant to be confrontational. I'm just calling a spade a spade as I see it, and I'm hardly alone with this perspective. And believe it or not, I actually spent a fair amount of time convincing other Avid users that the Red workflow wasn't THAT bad.

All that said, peace to all. :emote_hippie:

Not sure what your talking about...
I have some serious friends that are big movie editors & AVID lovers (FCP HATERS) working with RED seamlessly on there AVID boxes.
They are even onlining and grading as well as editing with complete ease.
I would not be able to say that 12 months ago though...

But still, they are kicking arse with there Avids again even though they all learnt how to get FCP unleashed as a backup plan.

So if your still having issues... maybe a bit of research on your side and your tunes will change. AVID is back with a vengeance and kicking arse with TRANSCODED AVID readable log files, RED are working hard to keep AVID smokin hot.

And you have to remember in the early days. It wasn't RED that was slowing down progress with AVID, It was AVID with there heads in the sand and ther thumb up there arse. It just took them a while to figure out RED was not a myth and they fell behind the 8 ball all by them selves. I'm glad they are back to be honest. I don't think Apple should have all the fun.

 

[Peter Moretti]

Mark,

I hope I made clear that I AM talking about the early days (which actually lasted for about two years), just as the quote was of Jim talking about the early days.

I think if you re-read my post this will be clear.

 

[Rob Ruffo]

Sanjin, There are always "work around" solutions. But this is exactly what keeps many clients away from Red One is the need to do gymnastics before editing (I know its easy....).

What our customers want to do is walk away with a drive and plug it into there computers and edit. They don't want to spend the extra time to transcode, or plug into on-set devises, etc.... even if its easy to do. Many "would be" users wont even try.

Red has proven that there are many customers willing and happy to go through a trasncoding step for a higher-end ability to manipulate and control images in the best way possible. But the other reality is many more (dare I say... most) producers in this industry dont need or want an extra step and are quite happy with an editable, (baked in) 1080p file based material to be able to quickly and easily edit. Costs is always an issue, time is money, etc. A better quality end product doesn't always justify the costs (money and time) and in today's market the budgets keep getting slimmer. Most material shot today is going to televison and more everyday to the web. Digital Cinema is the smallest part of the market slice.

Question is, Does Red want to sell to just the elite, "Hi-end" Media Producers, or offer options to everyone else as well.

Whats the downside to having a Pro-Res module option?

I think they have to go in this direction to stay viable. With DSLR's, etc (and whatever the next thing coming), having these kinds of options on Red products are all apart of the "modularity" necessary to be competitive today, and that's what Red is all about (or so I thought anyway). Do you really believe offering a "baked in" codec isn't fair game for Red?

Particularly with the Scarlet, the ability to sell to the masses (not just the elite), will require an easy "no brainer" work-flow option. I say "option" because we all understand that Raw recording is the best way, but the "best" way isn't for everybody or every shoot. Id rather have 2 camera's that really can do it all (Epic and Scarlet), if possible.

Having a module system to be able to switch to Pro-Res or some other codec IS exactly the kind of forward thinking that should make the RED products the best cameras available for years to come. But if they try and keep the record options to just Raw recording, there will only be a particular slice of the market willing to jump through the hoops required.

Alexa is pressing the issue, and perfect timing for Red to respond appropriately to this shot across the bow. I believe without a Pro-Res option in Epic, then Alexa will take a larger slice of "Digital Cinema" market. With a Pro-Res module option for Epic and Scarlet, it's a "game changer" throughout the different strata of the camera market place.

One guys opinion anyway.

best, ER

But... they can do that NOW on most NLE's - just drag and drop the R3Ds - in Premiere you can even real-time grade them! The only transcoding is at the very end. Even a one hour show, no rocket, will transcode overnight.

 

[Gunleik Groven]

The issue is not that you cannnot go RAW "all the way"

The issue is more like:
Online/offline is actually quite effective and secure for large form productions in larger organisations where the footage enters multiple persons and departments on its way to finnishing.

Productions I work with here, typically record 1/2 cameras for up to 9 months for a single production. That's a lot of data and people who are good at their specific tasks to learn how to treat the images for their particular use (edit/vfx/online)

I am currently finnishing one production, supervising one, preproduction for one I'll join in January, and in initial planning of a 6x1 hour 2cam Epic production which fires up in September.

Giving everyone RAW for their tasks would littelarily choke everything up.

Cheers!

G

 

[David Battistella]

This is something I've wanted for a while, to be able to record simultaneously in RAW and also in 1080P color with broadcast gamma with some basic color looks applied, for editorial / dailies, save the RAW for the final mastering & color-correction.

EPIC is all over this.

David

 

[David Battistella]

@ peter.

There was a simple solution early on. I was able to drag _H proxies into Apple copressor and ecode all of the material via QT to DNX HD codec for daillies. The "big shows" all have finshing suites doing the ONLINE work and that could also be done by extracting DPX files. I agree that those shows have established workflows that you don't want to mess with and non tape based workflows (not ust RED) do not fit in that well with episodical. (yet now they seem to be on the ALEXA band wagon).

The FCP>COLOR workflow, which everyone loves to crap all over, is actually very smooth and can deliver 4K media now.

Early on there were some people asking for meridian codec stuff, CRAZY! (since that was supported on G3 macs or something).

Anyhow it was doable with a MAC and some codecs from AVID. I think the stiff arm also came from AVID, who were not really prepared (but ramped up very quickly it seems) to handle REDCODE or most NON tape based media.

FCP has really been smart in being open and friendly to HDV, HDXDCAM, P2, REDCODE, etc, from the onset.

AVID was a very closed shop for a long time, very much to their detrament.

 

[Gunleik Groven]

Episodicals done on RED here all day long since april 08...

But on FCP...

 

[Mark Phelan]

With both EPIC and Scarlet, you can record RAW to CF or SSD AND record 720P, 1080P or 2K RGB (your choice of flavors) out the HD-SDI. There are options to do that now from 3rd parties and we will have our own soon. That gives you the best of both worlds if you need it instantly.

If not, put a quick grade on the RAW, use a RED Rocket, and transcode realtime to whatever you need. Then you still have the best of both worlds.

Other options... open R3D native in any of many 3rd party post workflows.

Jim

Exactly! I've been wondering why folks are complaining when this is a possibility right now with the R1. I just used my camera again this past weekend as a "broadcast" camera. Not exactly what the R1 was designed for, but worked fine, nonetheless. Output a clean 720p signal via HD-SDI to the control room and it was still beating the images from other "1080p" cameras used on the shoot, with the original M sensor too!

Might add that another neat feature is the "insta-zoom" via the 1:1 preview button. Adds a whole 'nother lens to the camera. Get creative folks!

 

[Peter Moretti]

Exactly! I've been wondering why folks are complaining when this is a possibility right now with the R1. I just used my camera again this past weekend as a "broadcast" camera. Not exactly what the R1 was designed for, but worked fine, nonetheless. Output a clean 720p signal via HD-SDI to the control room and it was still beating the images from other "1080p" cameras used on the shoot, with the original M sensor too!

Might add that another neat feature is the "insta-zoom" via the 1:1 preview button. Adds a whole 'nother lens to the camera. Get creative folks!

Mark,

But isn't that signal 60i? How do you match that signal's timecode to 23.976 .R3D files? If not, how have you created a useful offline version of the .R3D's?

I could very well be missing something here.

 

[Peter Moretti]

@ peter.

There was a simple solution early on. I was able to drag _H proxies into Apple copressor and ecode all of the material via QT to DNX HD codec for daillies. The "big shows" all have finshing suites doing the ONLINE work and that could also be done by extracting DPX files. I agree that those shows have established workflows that you don't want to mess with and non tape based workflows (not ust RED) do not fit in that well with episodical. (yet now they seem to be on the ALEXA band wagon).

The FCP>COLOR workflow, which everyone loves to crap all over, is actually very smooth and can deliver 4K media now.

Early on there were some people asking for meridian codec stuff, CRAZY! (since that was supported on G3 macs or something).

Anyhow it was doable with a MAC and some codecs from AVID. I think the stiff arm also came from AVID, who were not really prepared (but ramped up very quickly it seems) to handle REDCODE or most NON tape based media.

FCP has really been smart in being open and friendly to HDV, HDXDCAM, P2, REDCODE, etc, from the onset.

AVID was a very closed shop for a long time, very much to their detriment.

Avid being closed is beyond a doubt correct. And they have paid dearly for it. To the point that the company's survival is in some doubt, IMHO. They have burned through cash at an alarming rate and are only now starting to get to where they should have been two/three years ago. There are still issues with Media Composer that are downright comical, BUT the program also does many things exceedingly well.

But Red not releasing an SDK for two years was certainly a stiff arm, IMHO. Perhaps this was necessary to get Apple on board.

But it's even more than that. It's the tenor of the early Red presentations. Avid did just not appear relevant to them.

Now I don't know all the in's and out's of the relationship. Maybe Avid pissed off Red to all begeezus and so Avid just got what they deserved, IDK.

I do know I don't want to highjack this thread with what is ancient history for the most part. The two companies now seem to be working nicely together and realize they both need each other. But in the beginning, that wasn't the case. And there still is some smarting from that, that's all.

 

[David Battistella]

Avid being closed is beyond a doubt correct. And they have paid dearly for it. To the point that the company's survival is in some doubt, IMHO. They have burned through cash at an alarming rate and are only now starting to get to where they should have been two/three years ago. There are still issues with Media Composer that are downright comical, BUT the program also does many things exceedingly well.

But Red not releasing an SDK for two years was certainly a stiff arm, IMHO. Perhaps this was necessary to get Apple on board.

But it's even more than that. It's the tenor of the early Red presentations. Avid did just not appear relevant to them.

Now I don't know all the in's and out's of the relationship. Maybe Avid pissed off Red to all begeezus and so Avid just got what they deserved, IDK.

I do know I don't want to highjack this thread with what is ancient history for the most part. The two companies now seem to be working nicely together and realize they both need each other. But in the beginning, that wasn't the case. And there still is some smarting from that, that's all.

Agree Peter,

AVID has been a great tool and does many things exceedingly well. Now, they are very proactive when it comes to RED.

Industry players knew RED was coming onto the scene. I think as a startup, RED was willing to work with anyone. Apple was a good fit and FCP covers A LOT of the editing market now.

It's nice to look back on it, but it seems that AVID has had to catch up a bit and RED had to create the SDK to make the post as easily accesible as tape or film.

That's all done now and now it will be up to AVID to move people to their platform because there are no more excuses.

Thanks Peter. Good points.

David

 

[Meryem Ersoz]

Now I don't know all the in's and out's of the relationship. Maybe Avid pissed off Red to all begeezus and so Avid just got what they deserved, IDK.

I do know I don't want to highjack this thread with what is ancient history for the most part. The two companies now seem to be working nicely together and realize they both need each other. But in the beginning, that wasn't the case. And there still is some smarting from that, that's all.

Peter, you are kind of re-writing history to villainize RED here. It is more than unfair.

JJ has mentioned several times that he couldn't get his phone calls answered by many of the major players in post-production in the beginning, because so very few of them took him seriously. And they had an obligation to their early partners to withhold the SDK until their partnership agreements expired. Not to mention the fact that in the "early" years, they needed to build an SDK program, not just release an SDK.

(Early years - still makes me laugh. That was what, 3 years ago? We are still in the early years and yet the entire industry has moved towards the pathway forged by RED...)

Before you call anyone out, you should check the history. They have had many challenges trying to build a decent post-production workflow with many industry players' doors closed in their faces.

The workflow has evolved hugely as partnership agreements have expired and as workflow solutions have evolved. What they have done in such a short time, in terms of aligning their standards to the industry and vice versa is remarkable. And the enhancements continue to come.

There are currently only a few gaps in the post-production workflow, and I can't imagine that those gaps will last beyond 2011. Watch and wait.

 

[David Battistella]

There are currently only a few gaps in the post-production workflow, and I can't imagine that those gaps will last beyond 2011. Watch and wait.

The only one I can think of is the need to transcode. I feel it is still the most reliable way.

FCP _M proxies does not feel "full framrate" enough for me yet. I'm not sure wavelet decoding will ever be fast enough, but if RedRocket could hook in with FCP with direct to edit r3d in FCP, then there is not much else anyone could ask for (but they will)

David

PS: I am predicting APPLE will take FCP to the next level of post with an application that rethinks how it's all done (like say goodbye to ever needing to do any roundtripping)

David

 

[Jeff Kilgroe]

I was at Kappa Studios when Red was first being introduced. And it was clear as day (for about two years) that workflow was absolutely disregarded as far as Avid users were concerned.

Did you talk to Avid about this? Avid writes their own software, RED can't do it for them.

Red wanted to be the new standard for high-end filmmaking and replace film, but it stiff-armed the editing platform that most feature films and one-hour dramas were/are being cut on.

You have this completely wrong. RED attempted to get Avid on board right from the beginning, along with others. The problem is that most everyone thought RED wasn't going anywhere. RED stiff-armed no one. If you ever got that impression, you were not paying attention. RED has made their SDK available freely to anyone. RED invited many of the major software players (Avid, Adobe, Apple, etc..) to participate early on before the public SDK roll-out. We know who did, we know who didn't. Apple signed on. Assimilate signed on. Adobe did too, but a bit later.

Anyway, they're all paying attention now and delivering RED solutions now. The new REDCOLOR2 / REDGAMMA2 color space settings are in the SDK... The Foundry is on the ball, Storm will release with beta3 real soon now that supports this. Hopefully everyone else will follow suit rather quickly, Adobe, Avid, etc..

The only thing RED has ever restricted is people using their own debayer algorithms and direct file-level access. It seemed odd at first, but after seeing a few of the first third-party attempts for these things, I totally understand why RED did this.

 

[Michael Olsen]

Anyway, they're all paying attention now and delivering RED solutions now.

This, I think, is one of the most critical and best things RED has going for it right now.

It used to be that people could say that "RED Workflow is really hard, and it's really locked down." Which, I suppose, used to be true to an extent.

But those of us who have been waiting for Scarlet will enter into a post world where we can pretty much go anywhere and do anything, no questions asked. Adobe, Assimilate, the Foundry, Apple, Avid, Pablo, and of course, RCX. Take your pick, mix and match. It's supported.

That is way more than I can say for some other formats.

 

[M Most]

You have this completely wrong.

The last time I checked, you don't work for either Red or Avid, and you likely have no more solid inside knowledge of any of this than the poster you were replying to.

Every company has an agenda, Avid and Red included. There are political, technical, and other reasons why things developed the way they did, and they're not nearly as simple and straightforward as you're making them out to be. Red wasn't necessarily the open, loving, caring and sharing entity you're painting them as, and Avid has been a major force in the industry for a long time, with a product that works a certain way and relies on technology that has been battle tested and proven for years. Integrating new things is not something that happens overnight, particularly when you're not necessarily privy to everything you need to do it the way you want to. You can read whatever you want into that, but suffice it to say that companies act in their own interest, as they should. Things happen when they need to happen and not before.