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  • Hey all, just changed over the backend after 15 years I figured time to give it a bit of an update, its probably gonna be a bit weird for most of you and i am sure there is a few bugs to work out but it should kinda work the same as before... hopefully :)

ALEXA vs RED thread in Creative Cow

David Mullen ASC said:
Yes, but RedRocket is real-time, right? So unless you are converting all day long, having three hours of 4K material at the end of the day (for example) to convert to HD is not going to qualify as "immediate". And you'll also be backing up that 4K material all day long too, so it's not easy to squeeze conversion time into the process so that it's all done by wrap -- especially if when you wrap, you hand the data manager another 30 minutes of footage to back-up and transcode.

There's no question of course that it's better technically to work with RAW files in post, I think people are just saying that there are clients who don't want to wait for any transcoding, nor play for a RedRocket. The RAW workflow is a superior way of doing things, but some clients don't want superior, they want fast and convenient and cheap.

Also, the notion of using the monitor-out to record to a Pro-Res module or something similar is basically flawed because the live-out is only 720P and the debayering quality is not the best it could be - we all have seen aliasing and mosquito noise problems with the live 720P Red monitor image that is not there in playback.
Click to expand...

You can "hook" AJA kiPro to R1MX's HD-SDI out (even you can with some of mini converters get 1080p 1.3a HDMI) and

get simultaneously recording of your RED footage to Pro Res 422 if this enough for those clients that "want want fast and convenient and cheap"

and also for immediate dailies without waiting of any sort of conversion (the same way as Alexa plugs its SxS cart to MacBook Proo you can connect your AJA kiPro drive to MacBook Pro...

Advantage R1MX.

Game over!

The winner is R1MX.

But also with it you get 4K REDCODE RAW for later if you need it.

Alexa also needs a kind of external "onboard" recording unit to get ARRI RAW out of it.

R1 still keeps a "pole position" in that raceway just because is cheaper to rent (see at the above links from UK rental) and also deliver higher resolution image (4.5K) for the "future proof".

Again advantage R1MX.

Again game over!

The winner is R1MX again.
 
KiPro is not the answer, where I am right now.
I see your point, Sanjin - but it's not the solution that would be deemed ok.

A prores module + RAW is ok, though.

Thus several EpicX's are on order with a loooong look at alexa, because of it's "instant filmcamera" charm.

Today we're doing the realtime transcode, which admittedly is as fastif not faster than an SR route, but this is what production really want to speed up....

Record to edit with sync'ed audio and all...

Dunno if that is a logical demand, nd I am not really into discussing that. More stating an observation.

More "stuff" hanging on the R1 is not number 1 on the wishlist...

G
 
David Mullen ASC said:
Yes, but RedRocket is real-time, right? So unless you are converting all day long, having three hours of 4K material at the end of the day (for example) to convert to HD is not going to qualify as "immediate". And you'll also be backing up that 4K material all day long too, so it's not easy to squeeze conversion time into the process so that it's all done by wrap -- especially if when you wrap, you hand the data manager another 30 minutes of footage to back-up and transcode.

There's no question of course that it's better technically to work with RAW files in post, I think people are just saying that there are clients who don't want to wait for any transcoding, nor play for a RedRocket. The RAW workflow is a superior way of doing things, but some clients don't want superior, they want fast and convenient and cheap.

Also, the notion of using the monitor-out to record to a Pro-Res module or something similar is basically flawed because the live-out is only 720P and the debayering quality is not the best it could be - we all have seen aliasing and mosquito noise problems with the live 720P Red monitor image that is not there in playback.
Click to expand...

David agree on all fronts, Rocket is RT but with burn-ins etc. it can be even slower. As for recording out the SDI signal I have been unable to get timecode to bite with something like the KIpro, I know that qtake reads timecode through the SDI, but I believe that is the exception and not the rule. Also limited to 720 which ain't the greatest.

You would have to have a machine dedicated for dailies and even than you are still going to be waiting lets say an hour extra after martini. Just depends on how backed up you get, etc.

I would love to hear someone who does a lot of on set transcoding chime in...
 
Copying is slower than transcoding, and you need to copy first, so the transcoding speed is in all practical terms a non-issue (even though that's the most discussed). When making muliple checksumcopied versions of a project in the 300 GB range per day, the Rocket transcode is pretty much finnished when you have done the copying - even when you make rushes AND editing files. (of course depending on how big the last chunks of data are allowed to become...)

But I still think productions really want to get rid of the whole DIT thingy, get rushes and online/RAW material directly off the cam each day, set that to copy overnight and start a fresh next morning.

Thus the SSD's + a prores module makes a lot of sense...

And no Sanjin, this is NOT how it works on the R1 today...
 
David Mullen ASC said:
Yes, but RedRocket is real-time, right? So unless you are converting all day long, having three hours of 4K material at the end of the day (for example) to convert to HD is not going to qualify as "immediate". And you'll also be backing up that 4K material all day long too, so it's not easy to squeeze conversion time into the process so that it's all done by wrap -- especially if when you wrap, you hand the data manager another 30 minutes of footage to back-up and transcode.
Click to expand...

Yep.

I have found you need two computers with Red Rockets or equivalent in order to do the job correctly and transcode the media in high volume professional environments.

Machine A - Back up (with R3D data manager) and visual verification (watch all the takes and verify the media)
Machine B - Tanscoding

With a Proxy module you would still have to do step A
(the data has to be backed up and verified)

BUT

You have additional data to back up and verify because you are essentially "double recording" the media.

David
 
Gunleik Groven said:
But I still think productions really want to get rid of the whole DIT thingy,
Click to expand...


you can do this fairly easily now if you go with RC28 and 8GB CF cards, which are very affordable. I mean it was a good enough way to record CHE.

Unfrtunately, you will never convince a DOP to record at a "lower" compression ratio. But if you took a film mentality and went with 100 8 GB CF cards and sent them to the "LAB" at the end of a shooting day, then you's get rid of the DIT and have a PA/Driver do the post work.

The one-lights would be done in-camera.

Many productions would not only benifit but need to go this route (wilderness, documentary, reality tv, etc.)

And the workflow "problem" will be easily handled by the people who specialize in workflow POST.

David



David
 
Off topic: David B, what about qc'ing footage and having someone extremely knowledgeable about the camera? No reason for an AC or DP to be fumbling through menus just to get to frame guides... But in certain situations I do agree that your thought makes sense. Just need a ninja dit.
 
PatC said:
Off topic: David B, what about qc'ing footage and having someone extremely knowledgeable about the camera? No reason for an AC or DP to be fumbling through menus just to get to frame guides... But in certain situations I do agree that your thought makes sense. Just need a ninja dit.
Click to expand...

Pat,

I will be very clear. I am a big believer in having that person on the set and I value the position and I consider a professional DIT a complete asset to production. In a "large set", full crew environment it is very nessesary.

Can you see a sports documentary/reality tv/wildlife filmmaker/discovery channel crew having a DIT and data cart?

This is where the DIT system breaks down and where "productions" need to find very suitable alternatives when using a file based system.

In this situation, the operator/DOP needs to take on more of that role.

This is where cheap CF card media would solve a lot of problems.

While CF cards are getting larger and faster, this does not equate to less expensive. CF cards, at the right pricepoint, could be the best thing that ever happened to the "RED workflow.

David
 
PatC said:
Off topic: David B, what about qc'ing footage and having someone extremely knowledgeable about the camera? No reason for an AC or DP to be fumbling through menus just to get to frame guides... But in certain situations I do agree that your thought makes sense. Just need a ninja dit.
Click to expand...

did you see this post?

http://reduser.net/forum/showpost.php?p=611107&postcount=46


yup I think we are eye to eye on thsi one.


David
 
David Battistella said:
Yep.

I have found you need two computers with Red Rockets or equivalent in order to do the job correctly and transcode the media in high volume professional environments.

Machine A - Back up (with R3D data manager) and visual verification (watch all the takes and verify the media)
Machine B - Tanscoding

With a Proxy module you would still have to do step A
(the data has to be backed up and verified)

BUT

You have additional data to back up and verify because you are essentially "double recording" the media.

David
Click to expand...

Why would Machine A need a Rocket? Especially with Realtime playback in CS5,I can see no reason to have a Rocket on your ingest/verification station. You dont need a full res debayer to verify the footage is correct and safe.

also I see the type of production your talk about taking a lot of Drives and REDRAMs into the field and hoping for the best, same as with XDCAM/P2.
 
David Mullen ASC said:
There's no question of course that it's better technically to work with RAW files in post, I think people are just saying that there are clients who don't want to wait for any transcoding, nor play for a RedRocket. The RAW workflow is a superior way of doing things, but some clients don't want superior, they want fast and convenient and cheap.
Click to expand...

As much as I hate to say it.......... I would recommend an XDCAM system to clients with those requirements. RED is amazing at what it does, but that ain't want it does... yet, I see Epic being something that will fill that void hopefully.

*waits to get flamed*
 
Guys,

you still don't getting it.

First I would not like to compare Alexa with Epic.

It would be the same as I would compare F1 with F2 racing cars.

Both are racing cars bur F1 is F1 and F2 is F2.

Also don't forget that F1 are the highest rating racing cars in the world.

That must be clear from the beginning.

But it's maybe better I should reply again with something like this:


1. Camera weight comparison (body only):

- R1MX = Around 10 lbs (around 4.5 kg)

- Arri Alexa = 13.7 lbs (6.2 kg)



2. Direct to edit recording:

- R1MX that accompaning AJA kiPro ProRes HDMI/HD-SDI recorder can record
more than 2 hours of Apple 10 bit 720p or 1080i ProRes 422 files on a single media card (CF).
The price of the recorder about $4500 with media.
AJA KiPro Mini is even lighter and costs less at BHvideo shop $1,994.95 :thumbsup:

- Arri Alexa can record 15min Apple ProRes 4444 or 20 min Apple ProRes 422


3. The highest possible recording option:

- R1MX can record 4.5K RECODE RAW @ RED DRIVE (RAID)™ hard disk drive (320GB)
REDFLASH™ flash memory drive (64 GB) also (CF) Compact Flash Module.
12 bit REDCODE RAW 4K, 3K and 2K (windowed sensor)
1 – 30 fps 4K
1 – 60 fps 3K
1 – 120 fps 2K

- Alexa: This uncompressed 12 bit raw Bayer sensor data ouput from the ALEXA could be described as a digital negative that needs to be processed.
Appropriate equipment and tools are needed to record and work with ARRIRAW.
Alexa needs external ARRIRAW T-Link certified recorders. The price of any capable recorder starts about $20.000 +++ :smash: :violin:
Max recording speed 60 fps.

4. Price for the body only:

- R1MX (R1+MX upgrade) = $17.500 (body) + MX sensor upgrade $5750 = Total $23.250 :thumbsup:

- Alexa (body only) = about $60.000 :smash: :eek:ut: :emote_headwall:


To conclude is to say that instead of brand new Arri Alexa with price of $60.000 :frown2: :emote_headwall:

1_2010_06_14_14_36_38_X6-background-1new.jpg

You could buy the new red BMW X6 Coupé instead of ARRI Alexa for about the same price.

6_2008_01_21_14_06_09_x6_wallpaper_06-1000x585.jpg

You could buy the new red BMW X6 Coupé instead of ARRI Alexa for about the same price .

For sure that I would buy a brand new

BMW X6 with the price range: $56,500 - $89,000.

Than I would put my cheaper but the picture wise more powerful R1MX in that great new BMW car and have a great drive and shooting around.

I'm not a crazy just because I'm more like an ordinary (real) guy.
 
Sanjin Jukic said:
- R1MX that accompaning AJA kiPro ProRes HDMI/HD-SDI recorder can record Apple 10 bit 720p or 1080i ProRes 422 files.

- Arri Alexa can record 15min Apple ProRes 4444 or 20 min Apple ProRes 422
Click to expand...

The KiPro solution is not suitable for the jobs that me and David are talking about, they require immediate editing at 1080p in a easy to use package that anyone can use. I was under the impression the KiPro solution only works in 720p.
The KiPro/Nanoflash solutions are just too cludgy for me. Too many steps and stumbling blocks for many clients.
 
Clungy?

Don't forget that you have to every 15min - 20min offload your SxS card(s) just in the case that you do not have so many of them (expensive in comparison with R1MX media or even kiPro HDD or SSD solutions.

720p is enough for editing.

If it's not enough for you than you should read and learn more about ProRes 720p editing from several Walter Murch presentations that are like a web video available online.
 
Hehe Sanjin,
I'm talking about a 1080p deliverable to the client at the end of the shoot.
I am also talking about a XDCAM-HD disk that the client takes from me at the end of the day to their post facility and thats the end of my interaction with them. Not SxS which is a horrible medium. I can record 90 mins at 50mbps to a dual layer disk. And hand it o the client at the end of the shoot. Thats what some clients want.

I don't know about you but I am in the business of giving the client what they want, not dictating to them what they should use because I like it, I hate shooting XDCAM, but for some clients its the most appropriate medium.

I will recommend RED in 80% of my jobs when I have a say in the camera choice (Not as often as I would like) but there are times when a full on cine-camera is not wanted or appropriate. I feel the Epic will move that figure up to 97% of jobs will be suitable for RED.

I think we forgot that while it is great in some situations (Look at Steve Gibbys work) the RED at its heart is a Digital Cinema Camera, not a digital do everything camera.
 
Alexa can't even beat Canon's DSLRs in 1080p price/performance/mobility range.

I wouldn't even compare Alexa with R1MX.

With Epic no way to compare it.

It's too expensive, heavy and complicated to owe it as an end user.

Rentals and this madness with customers I all the time try to avoid.

Also I'm mostly renting my R1 to one or two production houses here in Austria.

One of them also participated in production of only one Austrian Oscar for the foreign film.

Renting to so called "independents" or "students" here in Vienna I'm not doing any more

just because you can meet only idiots or sort of sick mind ambitious people.

The rest of the time I shoot and experiment with R1MX for my own art oriented exploring movie/photo work.
 
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