Alexa HD !!

[Rick Darge]

The only one that is claiming 'war' are the users. There's no 'war' here. These are tools. I would hate to live in a world where there was just ONE singular option out there. ZEN DOG will shoot with Alexa, Epic, C300 and GOPRO. Different reasons for different cameras. I welcome options. Options are good.

 

[Mike Garrick]

I agree with Zendog, David & others there is no war here. This is just another tool to use.

What I find interesting is the tacit acknowledgment of Broadcast increasing importantance in production with this product ...that's IMO anyway. Which is a direct contrast to Red's ultra-resolution path for TV.

 

[Adam Etherington]

...those demented producers and DPs in Hollywood...

..or they learn to actually process the files out of a RED and make them look better than the Alexa...

Everybody has their reasons for choosing a tool for a job. Slander and slate whichever tool however you might, it is a subjective choice, and the best craftspeople will take their time and select a tool they feel most appropriate.. I think the Alexa is an astonishing camera, but that's just my opinion. I've just put the new season of Misfits on the format as I feel it's perfectly suited for high end drama. The workflow, simplicity of use for my AC's, ergonomics in a handheld environment, and the wonderfully flexible dynamic range are all enormous assets. That said, I just did a campaign for a well known fashion brand on Epic, there we needed access to super high resolution images, high speed at that high resolution, a look in which I was able to make the most of the RAW format, and a scenario where handheld wasn't a big issue and where the time constraints were much less than on long form drama.

I assessed the situation and made my choices accordingly, just as would most of the professionals whom are detrimentally referred to in the above quote. The next job I do I will evaluate and possibly test the formats available, and make a call based on the hundreds of factors in front of me. As will most of the people who are referred to in the above quote.

In terms of the Alexa HD; Arri have seen an opportunity to offer a slightly cheaper alternative to an established user base that requires a specific level of features. It is in their interest to release a new unit that is competitively priced against second hand units they have already sold, for obvious reasons. It's a simple but sensible business move, much in line with when Red dropped their Epic Pricing.. They'd both rather have customers buying cheaper brand new units from them, than second hand units that they've already sold before.

There is no correct or incorrect answer in all of this, no matter how hard anybody kicks or shouts, it's all very much each to their own, and we are incredibly lucky to have such an astounding array of tools before us..

 

[RivaiC]

It's inevitable. I'm guessing we'll see it at NAB next year, possibly even something serious at IBC. I was actually surprised to not see a 4K or 6K Alexa option at NAB this year.

It is not so surprising. Arri doesnt believe in 4K for the time being. I was with Geoff and Dolby Australian representative. We were watching High Dynamic Range samples and everybody questioned if it's shot on 4K and downsample, the answer is it was shot on Alexa. When doing a blind test, we find it hard to distinguish what was shot on 2K and 4K, but dynamic range does make a difference. It led to believe the picture have more details therefore more resolution but often it isn't the case. A rough survey that i did with couple of directors and DPs, they put resolution as 3rd factor and some dont give a damn. 1st and 2nd comes to color and dynamic range.

R

 

[Ash Worth]

The only one that is claiming 'war' are the users. There's no 'war' here. These are tools. I would hate to live in a world where there was just ONE singular option out there. ZEN DOG will shoot with Alexa, Epic, C300 and GOPRO. Different reasons for different cameras. I welcome options. Options are good.

That's BS. Red's mantra has always been one of combat. Us versus them. David and Goliath. Marketing. They stirred the pot and many of the users were happy to follow. Unfortunately they took that attitude onto the set and the arrogant bad reputation followed. That's tough to rebrand and many producers will go out of their way not to use Red.

 

[Björn Benckert]

Seriously? Now complexity is a virtue and simplicity is a detriment? I thought I'd seen it all, but, I guess, I was wrong...

Yes seriously, Epic would be a far more simple to use camera and cause less stress among AC's if only the frame cropping options was taken away. But I very much rather have these options among alot of other things then not having them even though if it means that the camera scares of a lot of rental clients. I find the epic as a great camera to own and shoot with, renting it out for short term (as we do mostly for commercials) without a camera tech person that goes along with the gear is usually causing trouble, people just dont know how it works, with the alexa it's simply more simple. And also those more experienced DP's that like to think that they know it all get offended when there is to many new functions presented and they are not so interested in having to ask the AC or camera tech guy how to do this thing or the other in front of their clients. That is at least my experience we work just as much with the alexa and the alexa studio as we do with the epic. But as I wrote above if it's up to me I rather have the epic for any shoot as I find that it gives me more options and it's simply a bigger camera with more features to learn and more options to decide upon, and I take that even though it can get more complex at times.

 

[luigivaltulini]

It is not so surprising. Arri doesnt believe in 4K for the time being. I was with Geoff and Dolby Australian representative. We were watching High Dynamic Range samples and everybody questioned if it's shot on 4K and downsample, the answer is it was shot on Alexa. When doing a blind test, we find it hard to distinguish what was shot on 2K and 4K, but dynamic range does make a difference. It led to believe the picture have more details therefore more resolution but often it isn't the case. A rough survey that i did with couple of directors and DPs, they put resolution as 3rd factor and some dont give a damn. 1st and 2nd comes to color and dynamic range.

R

RivaC,
'm not quite sure of what you say, I have recently had the posibility 'to test the new Christie 4K here in Televison in the seat, we shot some shot with Alexa and EPIC, all well prepared and not overexposed. When I came out from Resolve in 4K with the Extreme, people did WOW on a screen of 8 feet I did a wipe on video Epic and Alexa and I can guarantee that even the secretary has noticed the huge difference between the two shots.
It 's true, none of us have a 4K projector at home and' also true that most people look at the video on ipad or iphone.
But as I said are tools, Epic and Alexa are now the 2 best camera on the market.
We'll see DRagon by the end of this month?! I think so. He will have '+ dynamic range of Alexa! I do not know, He will have 'certainly less noise and more resolution.
For the skin tone after color correction I do not know any difference or problem.

 

[Ivan Kovax]

For Latitude, if it came down to the Alexa HD and the F55... I'd pick the F55. You get the added bonus of DR, resolution and raw.

 

[Patrick Tresch]

We'll see DRagon by the end of this month?! I think so.

Hello Luigi,

Don't be in a hurry. I think Dragon for us will begin around end of year.

Pat

 

[RivaiC]

RivaC,
'm not quite sure of what you say, I have recently had the posibility 'to test the new Christie 4K here in Televison in the seat, we shot some shot with Alexa and EPIC, all well prepared and not overexposed. When I came out from Resolve in 4K with the Extreme, people did WOW on a screen of 8 feet I did a wipe on video Epic and Alexa and I can guarantee that even the secretary has noticed the huge difference between the two shots.
It 's true, none of us have a 4K projector at home and' also true that most people look at the video on ipad or iphone.
But as I said are tools, Epic and Alexa are now the 2 best camera on the market.
We'll see DRagon by the end of this month?! I think so. He will have '+ dynamic range of Alexa! I do not know, He will have 'certainly less noise and more resolution.
For the skin tone after color correction I do not know any difference or problem.

Exactly the case that i mentioned. Do it with blind test. You shouldnt know what you are looking at and try guess it. Dont even do wipe. Ask your partner to prepare material that he himself only know and you sit down try to pick which is which. Of course technically 2K and 4K has differences, i dont pretend there isnt any, but the question how well do we perceived it. What's the contributing factor of the overall picture. Is it only resolution ? In the test we saw, we thought it was shot on 4K due to the high details (of the fantastic dynamic range), but it is not. The dolby guy doesnt have any hidden agenda in it, he has samples from lots of camera. To me, dynamic range makes much more obvious difference than resolution. The softness in Alexa is due to their OLPF, it is a difference approach than RED.

And for noise, yes, none Alexa or EPIC wins the trophy. hands it to Canon C500 instead (for now) !

R

 

[luigivaltulini]

Hello Luigi,

Don't be in a hurry. I think Dragon for us will begin around end of year.

Pat

ehehe, I would not be so sure

 

[Sanjin Jukic]

No need so much for that still very expensive Alexa HD in the future.

Much cheaper, lighter and even skin tone colour better rendering with RAW/ProRes onboard SD card recording cameras are already start shipping this month!!!

Read more>>>

 

[luigivaltulini]

No need for still very expensive Alexa HD so much in the future.

Much cheaper, lighter and even skin tone colour better rendering with RAW/ProRes onboard SD card recording cameras are already start shipping this month!!!

Read more>>>

:biggrin: and Action

[/URL][/IMG]

 

[Brian Merlen]

i always thought a 3 foot cooke looked funny on a Red Scarlet...but man on a BMC a 3 foot lens is hilarious!!!

 

[Rudi Herbert]

wow indeed,

I guess I should have been more specific on my remark, as in "the ones" that are demented, not that all are demented. The Hollywood system is vast amalgamation of different kinds of people, there are many serious professionals who are very strict and knowledgeable about the tools they use, and what camera fits what situation best, and I respect that. But there are lots of other people who demand certain tools based on the firm conviction that they are the best, or worse, the only one that merits any real consideration. Those people, often, have not taken the time to test or even try the tools they are putting down. Even more often, they base their judgment on hearsay and opinions formulated by others, the true mark of an unwise person. I understand how some people might have felt offended by my remark, again, the intention was far from meaning that every DP or Hollywood producer is demented, but if you think that there are no such nut cases out there, then you clearly have been lucky enough to work in a somewhat isolated shell where your exposure is limited, because there are plenty of those in Hollywood. Or anywhere else for that matter.

I've been lucky to work with Alexa, nice camera indeed. DR is definitely above that of Epic, though the much touted color rendition is equal to my eyes, provided one knows how to work with RAW. All that said, my favorite camera nowadays is the F65, which produces far more pleasing, natural and beautiful colors than anything else. I don't advocate that all tools should be priced comparatively to RED, whose pricing structure is clearly disruptive, even if that affordability has not swayed people like Riddley Scott or David Fincher from using the same camera I own. Manufacturers should charge whatever they feel they need to for their products, that is their fundamental right. BUT, the fact that may get away with high prices is not a direct reflection on the quality of their product, but rather that there are customers willing to pay that price, nothing more. In keeping up with pricing structures that are still obviously a legacy from the mentality of yesteryear that "real" tools should be priced out of the reach of most, well, that would point to the fact that ARRI is very much stuck on that old formula and have no desire to evolve from there. Again, I'm talking about a business model, not the relevance of the products which are clearly modern and up to date. The very rules responsible for all that bloated modus operandi that permeates Hollywood.

The Avengers was a terrible film, whatever it may have been shot on, and as for Malick, well, yes he is a genius but his films always put me to sleep, so whatever that does in terms of the discussion I don't know.

 

[Jeff Kilgroe]

It is not so surprising. Arri doesnt believe in 4K for the time being. I was with Geoff and Dolby Australian representative. We were watching High Dynamic Range samples and everybody questioned if it's shot on 4K and downsample, the answer is it was shot on Alexa. When doing a blind test, we find it hard to distinguish what was shot on 2K and 4K, but dynamic range does make a difference. It led to believe the picture have more details therefore more resolution but often it isn't the case. A rough survey that i did with couple of directors and DPs, they put resolution as 3rd factor and some dont give a damn. 1st and 2nd comes to color and dynamic range.

R

Funny thing is, Arri was all about 4K until they positioned the Alexa as their front-running camera. They are talking 4K again, at least their USA people are. I disagree with your resolution assessment, and so does Arri's own publications on the matter from a few years ago. When properly displayed, which is the key here, a 4K image is night and day different than a 2K one. Plain and simple, if you can't distinguish the extra detail and resolution there are two possible issues. 1> Your eyes suck. 2> The image isn't being shown properly. As we go to resolutions greater than 2K, I do think that it becomes a secondary issue next to color gamut, DR, and other optical properties. However, after seeing quite a bit of properly shown 4K lately, it's very difficult to step back to 2K. To my eyes, the difference is the same as stepping back from 1080p to 480p. And it's roughly the same jump in pixel density or detail between 2K and 4K, so it makes sense.

When showing at 2K, there is no discernible difference between 2K and 4K sources as long as the 2K source was acquired in a way that allows for most or all of the 2K raster to maintain nominal resolution. Which is the case with the Alexa, at 2.8K acquisition.

I agree with dynamic range to some extent, but we have to be realistic here in how we talk about DR. The EPIC and Alexa both handle well in terms of DR and already can acquire more than most display systems can reproduce. Film projection can muster whatever is represented on the print, less a stop or so. The newer laser projection systems claim to out-do this, but I have not seen any confirmation of that. Although they do look rather impressive when properly set up.

For me, color rendition and gamut are the primary concerns in showing an image. Resolution comes in second place for me because I'm a huge fan of detail and texture. There is no 2K system out there that can fully represent the texture and detail we get with a S35mm master print. However, 4K can accomplish this, or close enough most people can't tell. Arri knows this -- they spent a few years trying to convince an entire industry with this in regards to their 4K film scanning and laser printing systems.

i always thought a 3 foot cooke looked funny on a Red Scarlet...but man on a BMC a 3 foot lens is hilarious!!!

Just wait until these companies move their ASIC design to < 22nm production and we take another drop in size for the same amount of features. Honestly, I'd love a camera that is little bigger than a rear lens cap. Think how awesome that would be with larger lenses like an Optimo 12X... One could rig up the lens like a rifle, complete with shoulder stock and eyepiece. It could be very ergonomic. And the first people to do it will probably be arrested as potential terrorists when they pull one out in public.

 

[Jeff Kilgroe]

The BM Pocket Camera is a nice idea, I think it's what many of us originally envisioned the Scarlet as when RED announced a "pocket camera". Unfortunately, I couldn't get excited about the one at NAB. The jell-o shutter skew is dreadful, worse than my hacked GH2. The thing runs hotter than a Sony NEX, which can shoot a more jell-o free moving image in a slightly smaller package. The advantage to the BMPC is the codecs it records to. Other than that, there's nothing special about it and it's worthless as tits on a milk carton if you want to shoot stills here and there.

My ideal pocket camera would be a Leica M that also shoots full imager motion at 1-60+fps with no shutter skew and a highly optimized codec like REDRAW. It will happen some day... Just not quite there yet.

 

[JanneJansson]

Funny thing is, Arri was all about 4K until they positioned the Alexa as their front-running camera.

Yes and I'm pretty sure the reason Alexa is a 2k kamera was not random. Nobody is dobting Arri can make a 4k-6k camera. The question when are they going to release it ..and why. Meanwhile I shoot my Epic.

 

[Adrian Jebef]

RivaC,
'm not quite sure of what you say, I have recently had the posibility 'to test the new Christie 4K here in Televison in the seat, we shot some shot with Alexa and EPIC, all well prepared and not overexposed. When I came out from Resolve in 4K with the Extreme, people did WOW on a screen of 8 feet I did a wipe on video Epic and Alexa and I can guarantee that even the secretary has noticed the huge difference between the two shots.
It 's true, none of us have a 4K projector at home and' also true that most people look at the video on ipad or iphone.
But as I said are tools, Epic and Alexa are now the 2 best camera on the market.
We'll see DRagon by the end of this month?! I think so. He will have '+ dynamic range of Alexa! I do not know, He will have 'certainly less noise and more resolution.
For the skin tone after color correction I do not know any difference or problem.

Were you just monitoring out of the BM Extreme 4K card thru Resolve or did you actually conform/master everything at the same resolution? And what was your ALEXA source?

Just yesterday I was able to screen some anamorphic test material (Panavision 2x Ana) that was shot ALEXA 4:3 ARRIRAW, F65 RAW, and EPIC 5K ANA. Everything was graded from Raw in Resolve and output at 3840x2160. This was then played out of the new Sony Commercial 4K Projector onto a 12ft screen. The F65 material was hampered by poor debayering within Resolve but the ALEXA/EPIC material was almost indistinguishable in terms of discernable resolution. Color was a different matter...

 

[Chad Bonanno]

side note: the guy in the AbleCine video looks like David Cross. Tobias Fünke with an Alexa!!!