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  • Hey all, just changed over the backend after 15 years I figured time to give it a bit of an update, its probably gonna be a bit weird for most of you and i am sure there is a few bugs to work out but it should kinda work the same as before... hopefully :)

ALERT! Please read.

Eric Lange said:
Sebastiaan I think you raise a really interesting point.

If you are Arri or whoever, if you have GPS tracking on a piece of equipment, and the piece of equipment phones home and says “help I’m being stolen” then what?

What are the laws concerning that?

Are GPS coordinates sufficient grounds for obtaining a search warrant or launching a police raid (risking lives) to recover a piece of equipment?

With vehicle recovery systems it’s a bit easier as someone parks the car in the street, but having the rights to launch an armed raid for what the police would consider $50k toaster/appliance, I’m not sure what the normal MO is in various countries for that?

In Europe the use of fire arms is much less than the US, but year on year this difference is becoming less and less.

It is a bummer that companies are unable to support the rental houses with some form of recovery, and as you say they feel that insurance IS the safest route which it probably is...
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I recently had an iPad stolen at an airport, and I had GPS lock on the unit. I watched it drive from Calgary to a town about an hour north of Calgary, and finally stop at a house. I called the RCMP and I was told there wasn't much that they could do...
 
Here where I live it would really help having a GPS tracking device in the camera.
It would really be a great addition to the camera. At least you would know where it is and if it is moving, it even becomes easy to find. It should have a long lasting battery, or better yet, it should transmit as soon as it's switched on...Any way, I think GPS tracking is a must...just my 2 cents....
 
Colin Hubick said:
I recently had an iPad stolen at an airport, and I had GPS lock on the unit. I watched it drive from Calgary to a town about an hour north of Calgary, and finally stop at a house. I called the RCMP and I was told there wasn't much that they could do...
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That must have been a pretty unique feeling of frustration incredulity and helplessness.

I don’t even know if GPS coordinates are admissible evidence in court? Maybe poke around on the net for legal precedents.

Sorry about your I-pad.

It’s a funny image I have to admit, armed Mounties with horses parked around the corner, crouching down with weapons trained at the front door and a laud hailer “come out with your hands up..., we know you have the i-pad”…sweet old lady very nervously walks out on to the porch, and the next door neighbor tears off in their car with screeching tires.

GPS is perhaps not that accurate?
 
I think it would be tough for RED to put in a GPS...

Not because of a technical standpoint but a standpoint of legal liability etc. in support of
the unit so on and so forth.

The answer may be something as simple as stating that "RED supports the owners of RED digital cinema cameras equiping their cameras with GPS and other locator devices. As long as the placement of said GPS devices does not invalidate warranty we believe this is a prudent choice in the securing of ones properties. Each individual is soley responsible for GPS placement and function and any damage caused."

Obviously there is a myriad of things that would have to be done tested etc., but this may be a niche for a 3rd party, not only for RED cameras but other cameras, DSLR etc..

But again as for RED doing this, I would not expect them to, nor ask them to implement such a device. I personally would encourage a 3rd party to work with RED in finding multiple spots for placement (to thrwart easy removal etc.)... but all possible problems would again be the responsibility of the owner/3rd party integrator.
 
Michael McLaughlin said:
I think it would be tough for RED to put in a GPS...

Not because of a technical standpoint but a standpoint of legal liability etc. in support of
the unit so on and so forth.

The answer may be something as simple as stating that "RED supports the owners of RED digital cinema cameras equiping their cameras with GPS and other locator devices. As long as the placement of said GPS devices does not invalidate warranty we believe this is a prudent choice in the securing of ones properties. Each individual is soley responsible for GPS placement and function and any damage caused."

Obviously there is a myriad of things that would have to be done tested etc., but this may be a niche for a 3rd party, not only for RED cameras but other cameras, DSLR etc..

But again as for RED doing this, I would not expect them to, nor ask them to implement such a device. I personally would encourage a 3rd party to work with RED in finding multiple spots for placement (to thrwart easy removal etc.)... but all possible problems would again be the responsibility of the owner/3rd party integrator.
Click to expand...

Scouring the internet for the legal position of the use of GPS tracking without a priori warrant is not clear and is varied. If you didn’t see who stole the device, and you did not see the criminal taking the device into his own home (with your own eyes), then it’s hard to convince a police department to raid someone’s home based on a set of coordinates. This is too much Big Brother or Terry Gilliam’s Brazil, and I believe is supposed to violate the 4th amendment rights.

See,

http://gpstrackinginfo.com/tag/law-enforcement-gps

Although probably someone will argue that GPS is no different from seeing the item as the robber’s house is essentially “transparent” to short wavelength radio waves, and therefore GPS sees the position and identity of the item which is more accurate than seeing with your own eyes the same generic item that may or may not be the particular item that was stolen.

I’m with Michael on this one, especially as I don’t believe that it would be that easy to cram a blummin GPS unit inside the Epic Brain! What a pain in the arse. These guys (Jim and RED) have gone to so much trouble to maintain the form factor that they have, that I couldn’t conceive of stuffing a GPS battery powered transponder into the brains and various modules, etc. etc. because it would have to be permanently fixed to the inside of the camera units and RED would have to obtain licenses to do so.

In design it can be somewhat of an 80/20 rule?

So how many cameras out of 1000 would have to be stolen to make this an included design priority to build into such a camera?

1 in 1000,

1 in 250,

1 in a 100,

1 in 50?

I’m not asking for it, but for some it would certainly be a nice feature. What a headache…
 
Bing Bailey said:
if they can remotely lock an iphone and wipe it , why not the ability to remotely lock down an Epic or at least firmware with a list of banned serials that will lock it out if someone tries to upgrade the firmware plus a gps trace
Click to expand...

I think it might have a lot to do with the fact that the iPhone, by definition, is on a network and, as long as it is on, is perpetually connected and accessible; the whole basis for location-based services. No such situation currently exists with cameras, or most other tech devices for that matter. I am no expert but I don't think GPS alone will fill the bill on this count.
 
Doesn't the Epic already have a GPS in it?!? I seem to recall that as being one of the features.

The problem is, getting that GPS data to you.
 
I think there is a natural part of us that wants to get back whatever was stolen - the actual specific thing. We don't want a replacement, we don't want a dollar amount, we don't want a substitute.

Insurance, assuming it works as it should, is a great tool but it doesn't satisfy that desire. Not that we necessarily should be sending SWAT teams or camera vigilantes after every stolen camera. Simply filing a claim could save lives.
 
GPS and other tracking technologies is a waste of time. The solution is to make more cameras. The only thing that makes this particular theft unique is the same thing that makes it suspect: the rareness and the intrinsic strategic value of the item stolen.

What good is stealing the Hope diamond when there's no place to sell it?

So you steal something. Then you google it to research its value. You discover you struck gold- there's a fat juicy reward. You:

a. dump it.
b. sell it back to the owner.
c. sell it on the black market.
d. deliver it to your handler.

a. Decide its too hot and dump it.
-- The camera is destroyed, or otherwise unrecoverable. No one comes forward to claim the reward and no one is prosecuted. It becomes an enduring mystery.

b. Try to claim the reward.
-- Two risks here: where do you keep it while trying to contact the poster of the reward? How do you contact the owners without being discovered? How do you arrange payment? --- Lots of variables. Very hard. Lots of work. Lots of pitfalls.

c. Try to find a buyer that knows its value and is willing to receive stolen property- and willing to pay enough to make it worthwhile.
-- This is harder than it sounds because who wants to traffic in such a hot item? The only person interested would be a photographer or have a related need of such an item. They would have to have money and be insulated from prosecution in order to use the item.-- not likely.

d. Hand it over to the people that hired you to steal it.
-- A bounty is placed on a target item. Tens to Hundreds of millions of dollars in potential lost revenue is at stake. As long as it cannot be traced back to the client, every effort should be made to acquire it. A very ambitious low level executive looking to jockey his way up the ladder has a relative who is a career criminal...

Layer one: The (proxy) client. Layer two: the intermediary. Layer three: the operator.
Strategic intel is provided by the proxy client. (The What and the How Much) Tactical intel is provided by the intermediary. (Insulates Client, provides financing and logistics, handles transportation. Adds the Where, When and How to the operation) The Operator handles the job-- likely never meets or can identify the Intermediary. (Quick in, quick out, take other valuables to mask motive -- delivers to pre-selected dead-drop. Has the item in their custody for less than an hour. Keeps cash from job, gets a cash payment for role. A fat bonus if no one is injured).
 
Eric Lange said:
Here’s my crappy two cents.

Perhaps we give these crooks too much credit.

I’m guessing that these are basically junkies that steal to pay for their habit but are not normally in the business of stealing cinematic equipment. I doubt sincerely that they have done a lot of research on the internet to find out what an Epic is, and I doubt that their English is good enough to understand any of the posts on this forum, if they could even be bothered to find it. They have probably stolen lots of cash and cameras before, i.e. standard procedure, nick cash and cameras get out quick. If they were more serious villains they would have stolen the US passports (as these are worth a hell of a lot more money!). They probably passed the camera on almost instantly (not knowing what it really is) to whoever they normally pass on nicked cameras to. Probably some other low level junkie/hood has the camera sitting on his mantel piece having paid 50 Euro for it and is fixing one day to make some nice videos with the camera. Probably six months from now he’ll realize he can’t do anything with it and will probably end up on a market stall or Pawn shop in Marseille for sale for 100 Euro. I don’t think that these petty thieves will panic and throw the camera in a lake or dumpster. It’s out there somewhere but very much like stolen art, it has to go through several changes of hand until all provenance is lost and it might turn up a year from now. Someone might step forward who says I bought this from a guy who bought it from another guy who he met in a bar who bought from another guy and so on… I don’t think that these guys will be caught, but the camera might turn up a year from now.

Mark I’m really sorry about what happened, leaves a bad taste, hope you and yours can find nice ways to distract yourselves from such a scummy and unfortunate incident.

Very Best,

Eric
Click to expand...

Yes, but: Junkies + Upscale French Resort = "Can I ask what you're doing here?"
 
Keith Walters said:
I had an idea once for a security gadget that might be dubbed the “Too Hard Basket”™. It would have been perfect for this situation.
My idea was to make a collapsible carry bag out of Kevlar or something similar, that could be folded up and carried like a normal suitcase when not in use.
When you wanted to use it, it could be unfolded to make a large flexible carry case, a bit like those rectangular insulated zip-up PVC carry bags KFC etc sometimes supply larger “Meal Deals” in.
I’d envisaged something that folds out to about 4 feet x 18 inches x 18 inches, about the size of a largish flight case. The top would zip up, and the zips would then be covered by lockable Kevlar shrouds.
The trick is, the bottom six inches of the case would be taken up with a flexible water tank which would then be filled from any available water source when you wanted to immobilize it. Six inches x 4 feet x 18 inches of water would weigh almost 200 pounds, which would make it extremely difficult for any casual thief to make off with it. The general “floppiness” of the case would also make it difficult even if there were two people involved.
The only way of emptying it would be to unlock the top to gain access to the drain hose. There would also need to be a built-in pump to empty it in a reasonable time.
It would be a pretty effective way of making sure things stayed put!
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I think you have the beginnings of a great idea here. But kevlar can be melted with a pencil torch fairly easily. Its great for impact dispersal, but you can cut it and melt it.
 
Jeff Coatney said:
Yes, but: Junkies + Upscale French Resort = "Can I ask what you're doing here?"
Click to expand...

I don’t know how many European Ski resorts you have been to, but these are intrinsically un-securable locations, especially at night.

You are located in LA; I lived there about 15-20 years ago, I was nearly killed by gangbangers in Marina Del Rey (for chr*st’s sake) while working for the Getty! [Unconscious lying in the gutter for 25 minutes mashed up face and teeth, torn clothes bleeding etc, etc. with a police car parked diagonally opposite a gas station and four way intersection, doing absolutely nothing! (very lucky to be alive)].

If you need to steal you go where rich people have stuff that’s easy to steal, i.e. a Ski resort. Talk about shooting ducks in a barrel??? This is a little surprising coming from an Angelino... ;)

I think genuinely that you have a wonderful, if not beautiful imagination, but I can tell you random shit (unfortunately) drives most of the significant events that ever happen either on a personal scale or larger. The idea that (as some have put forward) that this is some kind of premeditated thing carried out by an upwardly mobile dodgy geezer or crime syndicate is frankly ludicrous (or hard to take too seriously). This is rather “magical” thinking, nothing wrong with that but…it boils down to wrong place at the wrong time. Random bad Sh*t happens all the time, and is the most likely cause of most bad sh*t that ever happens. If these guys had better decision making abilities they would not need to steal (at least not in France, Italy, Switzerland, Austria etc. etc. unless they are junkies that have fallen in with a bad crowd; that constitutes the major plank of most petty criminals the world over (unfortunately)).
 
Eric you're very lucky. I'm sorry you went through that. My imagination is sometimes a frightening place, but experience informs my flights of fancy.

I wonder if Mark could find out how many such break-ins happened on the same day and in the days prior and after?
 
Jeff Coatney said:
I wonder if Mark could find out how many such break-ins happened on the same day and in the days prior and after?
Click to expand...

That’s a very sensible question, but I think as someone posted a long time ago these resorts try to play down the amount of crime that really happens; I would be really surprised if the local police would hand over such information as this would damage the local economy somewhat, i.e. their families, brother in laws and so on. I lived in France on and off for six years, and loved it but, with small towns everybody takes care of everybody else, it’s a bit like an extended family. Unless you have a really nice police officer, I don’t think that they are going to hand over information if it damages their families’ lively hood. I tell you French Bureaucracy is something else, if you can’t tic a box for it, it ain’t gonna happen.

I admire the French very much, but when it comes to situations like this they are very pragmatic. In the US I think we feel that we have to be compensated for everything bad that happens to us, and naturally there is an unerring stream of litigation that can be brought to bear for every situation we may encounter. In Europe things are very different in this respect, especially in France. Without being too much of a curmudgeon, I don’t think the French local police are going to be very sympathetic to the idea that someone brought a one of kind vital imaging device to a ski resort (somehow). (I personally don’t share that point of view, and I am very sympathetic to one of kind instruments going missing). Perhaps if Jim donates 100k to the local police fund you might see more action, but by now it’s way too late.

I really feel sorry for Mark ,…and Jim, as it’s really hard to get anywhere with something like this unless you are extremely lucky...

but who knows, maybe Jim has a way to win friends and influence people, who knows maybe even the French!
 
I've been reading the RED forums a long time, but never registered because I don't own my own camera and had no reason to register. But #00006 getting stolen left me in disbelief.

I created a facebook page to spread awareness about the missing camera in the film industry. I know I have 1600 friends on my list, and most of them work in film. If they spread the word to their friends... and so on... hopefully someone will see it on set shooting some student film somewhere...

Share the page with your friends...
http://www.facebook.com/pages/Find-stolen-RED-EPIC-00006/184696571554482?v=info
 
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Michael T. said:
I think Mark's Epic-M #6 is worth a lot more than $28K. More like $60K+ and priceless.
Click to expand...

Definitely. I wrote it before I read about all the parts that were stolen. I thought it was just the body at first. "sigh". Still can't believe how bad that sucks. Honestly, I gotta admit it that it sounds like he was targeted. Most thieves will turn around and run when they find out that the house is occupied. But the fact that they continued searching the house leads me to think they knew what they were looking for.

Then again, I don't have all the information. At the end of the day, no matter how you look at it. It sucks.
 
Wade Cordts said:
Definitely. I wrote it before I read about all the parts that were stolen. I thought it was just the body at first. "sigh". Still can't believe how bad that sucks. Honestly, I gotta admit it that it sounds like he was targeted. Most thieves will turn around and run when they find out that the house is occupied. But the fact that they continued searching the house leads me to think they knew what they were looking for.

Then again, I don't have all the information. At the end of the day, no matter how you look at it. It sucks.
Click to expand...

Wade, this was an EPIC-M, not an EPIC-X. The Ms are hand made right now and cost $58K alone. All the other equipment adds even more to the loss. The EPIC-X body alone has a cost of $28K, but that doesn't really matter since no one has one right now. They have not been produced yet. Only EPIC-Ms(we don't know if anybody else even has one) and some prototypes are in the field. My guess, if anybody does have one, they are very wise to be protective of it and are not posting about its current location.

It would be nice to know if more are out in the wild right now.
 
All I can say is this...

If I dropped over $60k on a camera...
I'd also have a very nice home security system.

Guys, i suggest to anybody else that has one, that you take measures to protect it. SOmetimes, it can be a crappy world we live in.
 
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