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  • Hey all, just changed over the backend after 15 years I figured time to give it a bit of an update, its probably gonna be a bit weird for most of you and i am sure there is a few bugs to work out but it should kinda work the same as before... hopefully :)

After Raven, & Jarred's Tease About New Scarlet -What Up For MG Weapon?

Tarquin Cardona said:
Jeffrey. I am not so sure it is a question of justification - more a value proposition. I am unclear if Red planned on Raven as far back as NAB or not. But Raven kind of sets a bench mark. At one end you have Raven - that can be yours for 9K or so with 4.5K 3:1, 2K Pro Res, the form factor and AKS. If one trades an Epic D in for an MG, you get 6K, better compression but similar stuff beyond that. And the trade plus extra cash comes to about 34K. Almost 4 times the amount. It's the size of the gap that seems to be the question. So I think everyone is hoping and praying. And Jarrad maybe is locked away somewhere unable to speak. But I think we are all hoping for those who are not going to be wanting 8K etc anytime soon, that Raven will spawn a middle ground trade in for Scarlet and Epic D that is a halfway. Or some crazy thing like that.
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But Jarred was clear about that. He said that Epic has already a path and Scarlet will have one. I'm probably selfish on this one, but if there is an upgrade program from epic to scarlet weapon, unless Red is trading these 2 cameras for nothing and I don't think so, it will probably mean 5000-10000e for epic owners to upgrade, then what about scarlet D owners? Probably 100000$ more than epic for the upgrade (like it was in the past). I would be really disappointed if the scarlet dragon to weapon upgrade was 15000-20000$ because they decided to mainly make it a epic D horizontal upgrade. Maybe they will reduce the price of the Weapon MG upgrade. That would make more sense.
 
sam karr said:
But Jarred was clear about that. He said that Epic has already a path and Scarlet will have one. I'm probably selfish on this one, but if there is an upgrade program from epic to scarlet weapon, unless Red is trading these 2 cameras for nothing and I don't think so, it will probably mean 5000-10000e for epic owners to upgrade, then what about scarlet D owners? Probably 100000$ more than epic for the upgrade (like it was in the past). I would be really disappointed if the scarlet dragon to weapon upgrade was 15000-20000$ because they decided to mainly make it a epic D horizontal upgrade. Maybe they will reduce the price of the Weapon MG upgrade. That would make more sense.
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I honestly think anything is possible. Raven was super aggressive and super smart and gives a lot of bang for the buck. Someone coming into RedWorld right now in my view is one lucky duck.

I can't really decipher if Raven was planned back when CF and MG came up first. What I can imagine is that based on Raven pricing, and with body trade in values there could be a fourth camera just below MG or maybe MG will turn into it as you say. I mean these guys lopped the Epic M pricing at one point in response to market so anything is possible. I think the days of thinking Scarlet and Epic as such may be over. Now Red is offering degrees of power and capability to meet different needs and you pick your camera on what degree of oomph you need. Picture-wise I imagine it's a wash, but those with CF that can pump out low compression 6K will always be in the catbird seat.
 
With all due respect I'm looking to spend almost Alexa SXT prices to upgrade when all costs are accounted to 8k so the Ravens great deal must proportionally weigh in for us non MG guys too man.. Like it's tough decision making time cuz even if the rates drop the revenue might not cuz it depends entirely on elasticity of demand. Weapon CF and 8k need to command SXT rates to justify these levels of spending, if the market can't cope with assigning rates that high raven starts to become even more competitive if you will regarding higher end rentals. It's tough financially to make the jump to 8k, I think with the 16k in deposits I have a MG don't seem that bad but it's all relative and price to performance raven works for me but I need to CF my A cam to keep it renting I worry too sometimes
 
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I just feel the upgrade cost of Epic Dragon to MG Weapon is too steep. It's about $14,000. It really needs to get to under $10,000 in my opinion. More like $5000-$7000 seems right to me. And if you need to switch to Mini-Mags and bought a lot of used mags, you're kinda screwed.

I'd love a weapon as much as the next guy, and it's still a possibility for me. Just finding a tough time justifying it right now. My Dragon is awesome, I don't see Weapon being $14,000 awesome-er...
 
Brian Merlen said:
With all due respect I'm looking to spend almost Alexa SXT prices to upgrade when all costs are accounted to 8k so the Ravens great deal must proportionally weigh in for us non MG guys too man.. Like it's tough decision making time cuz even if the rates drop the revenue might not cuz it depends entirely on elasticity of demand. Weapon CF and 8k need to command SXT rates to justify these levels of spending, if the market can't cope with assigning rates that high raven starts to become even more competitive if you will regarding higher end rentals. It's tough financially to make the jump to 8k, I think with the 16k in deposits I have a MG don't seem that bad but it's all relative and price to performance raven works for me but I need to CF my A cam to keep it renting I worry too sometimes
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At the moment for those who know about it or are asking about it, Weapon is getting a pretty damn good day rate. Being number 47 and not the first Forged out in the field I sought out advice rather quickly as I had a shoot literally 48 hours after receiving the camera and had no idea what the going rate was. Mostly because there wasn't a going rate just yet as it was blisteringly new to market. Nobody scoffed at the that rate so far and that's good news. I think 8K will add to that favorably. I have 3 clients who are bugging me for 8K material for a while now.

It's going to pan out differently for different folks and different markets. I'm certain as my journey with Weapon progresses I'll be fighting the rate game once there are more out there. Especially in LA.

That said I am considering buying a 2nd and perhaps 3rd Weapon within the next calendar year as it may fit part of my plan.
 
Phil Holland said:
At the moment for those who know about it or are asking about it, Weapon is getting a pretty damn good day rate. Being number 47 and not the first Forged out in the field I sought out advice rather quickly as I had a shoot literally 48 hours after receiving the camera and had no idea what the going rate was. Mostly because there wasn't a going rate just yet as it was blisteringly new to market. Nobody scoffed at the that rate so far and that's good news. I think 8K will add to that favorably. I have 3 clients who are bugging me for 8K material for a while now.

It's going to pan out differently for different folks and different markets. I'm certain as my journey with Weapon progresses I'll be fighting the rate game once there are more out there. Especially in LA.

That said I am considering buying a 2nd and perhaps 3rd Weapon within the next calendar year as it may fit part of my plan.
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I think you are in a different place with what you do and need. Love what you share on this forum by the way.

The Raven/MG question comes from different people though. Those who shoot real world stuff, tighter budget stuff, and want Red imagery but with the ease and form factor Red has now adopted with Weapon. They wouldn't need 2 or 3 cameras, and are most likely solo or small team shooters. So for them the cost to own is not about making rental money as much as making content that makes money - which is slower to evolve. I continue to feel the point that has come up here is that Raven flew in (pun sorry) with such an aggressive price including AKS that it made the MG upgrade feel out of alignment now. If Raven is going to give 4.5K at 3:1 and exhibits the picture quality with absence of CMOS smear you so graciously demo'ed in your test footage - then that is one heck of deal.

For me. I am not sure how I feel. I was very early to Epic M. It worked for me for content production, esp because of the still capture bonus for clients. I have been spoiled by making my 4K or 1080 even from 6K footage. But there are days when I wonder if I am fooling myself in some ways (you know - overkill). I do know from Netflix type production that the sweet spot is 5K for 4K to get the desired 'tightness'. So maybe it is not so overkill after all. I wonder about a Forged Weapon every day I confess.

MG Weapon represents the possibility of being Raven plus. Before Raven it was a second tier CF. But Raven was so generously gifted with capabilities that fit doc, sport and beyond that on a practical level it maybe unintentionally stole the limelight from MG. Forged and CF are top of the line no doubt. And one would imagine for high end producers etc (who lets face it can often be 'label' drinkers) those cameras are the ones they want. For the leaner indy, Raven arrives in full disruption mode. Which leaves MG where? I think that is the true topic here and I am sure will be answered over time by sales figures.
 
Tarquin Cardona said:
I think you are in a different place with what you do and need. Love what you share on this forum by the way.

The Raven/MG question comes from different people though. Those who shoot real world stuff, tighter budget stuff, and want Red imagery but with the ease and form factor Red has now adopted with Weapon. They wouldn't need 2 or 3 cameras, and are most likely solo or small team shooters. So for them the cost to own is not about making rental money as much as making content that makes money - which is slower to evolve. I continue to feel the point that has come up here is that Raven flew in (pun sorry) with such an aggressive price including AKS that it made the MG upgrade feel out of alignment now. If Raven is going to give 4.5K at 3:1 and exhibits the picture quality with absence of CMOS smear you so graciously demo'ed in your test footage - then that is one heck of deal.

For me. I am not sure how I feel. I was very early to Epic M. It worked for me for content production, esp because of the still capture bonus for clients. I have been spoiled by making my 4K or 1080 even from 6K footage. But there are days when I wonder if I am fooling myself in some ways (you know - overkill). I do know from Netflix type production that the sweet spot is 5K for 4K to get the desired 'tightness'. So maybe it is not so overkill after all. I wonder about a Forged Weapon every day I confess.

MG Weapon represents the possibility of being Raven plus. Before Raven it was a second tier CF. But Raven was so generously gifted with capabilities that fit doc, sport and beyond that on a practical level it maybe unintentionally stole the limelight from MG. Forged and CF are top of the line no doubt. And one would imagine for high end producers etc (who lets face it can often be 'label' drinkers) those cameras are the ones they want. For the leaner indy, Raven arrives in full disruption mode. Which leaves MG where? I think that is the true topic here and I am sure will be answered over time by sales figures.
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Interesting points there Tarquin. I totally agree that Raven is a bit disruptive in it's feature set and price point. I think what's getting interesting here tiered pricing of the DSMC2 bodies. And I suspect whenever this Scarlet path to DSMC2 is that Jarred has mentioned happens in 2016 it's going to also effect our thoughts.

At the moment I see it this way:

- RED Weapon Carbon (Woven/Forged) 8K - $$$$$$
- RED Weapon Carbon (Woven/Forged) 6K - $$$$$ (path to 8K, yes $)
- RED Weapon Magnesium 6K - $$$$ (path to 8K, yes $$)
- RED "Unknown Scarlet path to DSMC2" - $$ (maybe $$$?! - if there is a path to 8K, perhaps $$$ or $$$$)
- RED Raven - $

Raven is producing a lot of value for that single dollar sign, even with considering the $8-10K for a basic shooting package. However, it doesn't shoot 5K-6K, which is a pretty big difference as well as things like interchangeable mounts.
 
Nicely stated Tarquin. As an owner/ operator I am stuck in the same rut. I love Red and their aggressive approach they take with all they do. Whenever there has been an upgrade, I have jumped on it no questions asked, and I am very grateful! The upgrade program is a blessing. When the MG upgrade was announced, even with the additional 5K price tag, I put my deposit down. I trust that the MG will be an amazing camera, everything I needed and was hoping for, but now that the Raven is out with all its amazing specs, it begs a question for me. Does it run to close to MG in features to justify such a large price gap. Cost vs. software/ physical features.

I don't know where this leaves me just yet. I love shooting Red, and will continue to shoot my Dragon. The last thing I want to do is revert down to a Raven (I love 5K and 200+FPS), but I have to spend my budgets wisely as a small independent business owner. I am hoping that Jarred will fire up a post giving MG a little Raven-esque love as MG right now is a bit of an odd man out in the camera line up.
 
Phil Holland said:
Interesting points there Tarquin. I totally agree that Raven is a bit disruptive in it's feature set and price point. I think what's getting interesting here tiered pricing of the DSMC2 bodies. And I suspect whenever this Scarlet path to DSMC2 is that Jarred has mentioned happens in 2016 it's going to also effect our thoughts.

At the moment I see it this way:

- RED Weapon Carbon (Woven/Forged) 8K - $$$$$$
- RED Weapon Carbon (Woven/Forged) 6K - $$$$$ (path to 8K, yes $)
- RED Weapon Magnesium 6K - $$$$ (path to 8K, yes $$)
- RED "Unknown Scarlet path to DSMC2" - $$ (maybe $$$?! - if there is a path to 8K, perhaps $$$ or $$$$)
- RED Raven - $

Raven is producing a lot of value for that single dollar sign, even with considering the $8-10K for a basic shooting package. However, it doesn't shoot 5K-6K, which is a pretty big difference as well as things like interchangeable mounts.
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Nice use of $$$$$

However this plays - I guess we can safely call all of this - first world problems.
 
Jarek Zabczynski said:
I just feel the upgrade cost of Epic Dragon to MG Weapon is too steep. It's about $14,000. It really needs to get to under $10,000 in my opinion. More like $5000-$7000 seems right to me. And if you need to switch to Mini-Mags and bought a lot of used mags, you're kinda screwed.

I'd love a weapon as much as the next guy, and it's still a possibility for me. Just finding a tough time justifying it right now. My Dragon is awesome, I don't see Weapon being $14,000 awesome-er...
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This. The only benefit I personally see in the MG is the weight savings at the price. The rest of the new features are in the Raven which IMO makes just as much sense if already own an Epic Dragon.

However i'd love to jump over to the new body style and get the weight savings, pro-res, etc but the Weapon costs are just far to high for me personally. Not that they're overpriced for others. To me the MG Weapon and Epic Dragon are just to close in terms of performance to justify the cost jump.
 
I'm sure red hears us, it's a strange place to be floating right now, I'm not upgrading to weapon till I hear about this scarlet and hopefully magnesium weapon will either drop in price or add features. I'm think a LOT of folks feel the same.
 
You make a good point Jake. Closing in on 7 months since the upgrade paths were paid for on our Dragons...but it does make sense to wait and see what is announced. It will require tens of thousands to upgrade both bodies and with our pitiful CDN dollar we'll have to add 25% to the cost!
 
Are we locked in to the down payments we put on MG Weapon? Can't remember if I read that somewhere in the terms and conditions. Buying 2 ravens instead of upgrading to MG sounds like a nicer deal.
 
If technically possible, I would be interested in an upgrade to non-prores Weapon boards for my Dragons and hold off on dsmc2 for a few more years. The reduced smear and shadow detail of Weapon is all I'm really after. Maybe an option when the new sensor is announced?

sam windell said:
Are we locked in to the down payments we put on MG Weapon? Can't remember if I read that somewhere in the terms and conditions. Buying 2 ravens instead of upgrading to MG sounds like a nicer deal.
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I cancelled my MG Weapon upgrade months ago as I couldn't justify the cost/benefit ratio financially. I either had to go in big and early with forged/woven or not at all. Given my business model I am not confident there will be enough time with MG Weapon before I will want/need to put down another deposit for the next gen sensor to stay current.
 
I find myself in a similar dilemma to some others who have posted on this thread. I've been a big beneficiary of the RED trade-up policies in the past, moving from Scarlet-MX, to Epic-MX, to Epic Dragon. When the NAB release of Weapon occurred, I immediately put in my deposit for a MG Weapon (CF "$$$$$" was just too big a leap for me., and 8K is a great "theoretical" advantage but hard for me to monetize in my market). Since NAB, I've been waiting patiently as the Forged and now Woven CF Weapons have started to appear in the wild. I was excited by the prospect of the new form factor, weight, cooling, and other great Weapon features…even though I knew I wouldn't have them for a while since MG upgrades are at the end of the upgrade queue. However, all of a sudden Raven appeared, and the landscape shifted radically!

These days I am most interested in the rental potential and ROI of my equipment…I still do some shooting, but frankly not enough to justify the expense of a Weapon. I operate a small rental boutique company, in a medium-sized market with an active production community. There are no other true rental houses here, but are a lot of owner/ops who rent their gear. Rental rates here are not as low as LA, but budgets aren't huge, and that (coupled with the owner/ops) has put a lot of downward pressure on rental rates. I have a hard time getting a decent day rate for an Epic Dragon, and doubt seriously that clients will be willing to pay much of a premium for Weapon in my market. I've rationalized my MG upgrade costs as just being part of "doing business and staying current" in the ever-changing quicksand of digital cameras.

Raven changes that equation for me. When someone can buy a Raven and get a fairly large percentage of the capability of my MG Weapon for 1/3 the cost, it pushes the MG ROI even further out. I was so impressed with Raven, that I put a deposit down on one. I think it will make an excellent camera for smaller jobs and B-Cam for larger ones. I'm super excited about it as a rental item in every way…except for the competition it is going to give my own MG Weapon investment.

Now that Jarred has announced that there will be yet another camera "below" the MG, but with capabilities greater than Raven, I'm afraid that the MG "niche" is being eroded even further. I just don't know how to justify that $19K upgrade cost. I don't want to seem ungrateful for the upgrade deal…I'm not at all…but I can't figure out how the $$$$ for MG can possibly pay off quickly enough.

Some clarity of the big picture…the 20,000' view of how all these models fit together and what their feature sets are...would be a huge benefit to me (and I'm sure many others) in my decision-making process.
 
My reds been renting so bad lately I'm not even sure what to do sometimes man... It did well for years but slow lately
 
My arri does pretty well so I like diversifying in general to hedge
 
Cmon Red, just give us s bone regarding magnesium, I'm sure a lot of people are deciding whether to spend the money this tax year as I am. Even a simple statement like, "we hear u, don't worry" would probably make me upgrade to magnesium now...
 
Here's a vote for eliminating Mg Weapon and replacing it with an Aluminum Weapon or some other less expensive metal with the same processing power as CF Weapon.

The difference between Epic Dragon and Mg Weapon is too small for the cost IMO.
 
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