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  • Hey all, just changed over the backend after 15 years I figured time to give it a bit of an update, its probably gonna be a bit weird for most of you and i am sure there is a few bugs to work out but it should kinda work the same as before... hopefully :)

After Raven, & Jarred's Tease About New Scarlet -What Up For MG Weapon?

Jeremy Torrie

Jeremy Torrie

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I'm very excited for Red and those wanting Raven -I may even jump on board and get one for aerial and smaller documentary work, especially with 4.5K being enabled.

I didn't want to take over a thread there, especially when Jarred said Scarlet owners are going to be very happy pre-NAB.

Given that our Magnesium upgrades we paid for at NAB this year are likely going to take us until early 2016 to the new body/internals and 6K (which I already have with our Epic M Dragons) I wonder what Jarred et al have up their collective sleeves. We were told there will be eventually an upgrade path to 8K. That's something I'm definitely interested in and could not afford to do with two bodies as of NAB 15. Realistic to think we'd see this for NAB 16?

Thoughts for those of us caught in the middle?
 
I thought they said that the MG would stop at 6k, and not possible to upgrade to vista vision.

my feeling is the line up will be something like this.

Forged/Woven Weapons: 8K

MG Weapon: 6K

Scarlet Weapon: 5K

Raven: 4.5K
 
I agree weapon magnesium seems the odd one out with this new scarlet. I wonder if it's possible to go from epic dragon to weapon scarlet? I'm just not seeing the benefit from epic dragon upgrade to magnesium weapon for the upgrade cost with the new scarlet coming which seems apparently to be specced fairly high. IS IT POSSIBLE there are things in store for magnesium weapon that we don't know about yet? Is it possible red will lower the upgrade price to magnesium weapon from epic dragon around nab? Somethings not adding up...
 
It would be helpful to discuss this with that table that somebody posted in another thread, comparing all cameras' data rates and max res, etc.

Weapon Mg is basically Epic Dragon in a DSMC2 body, with WiFi, 2K ProRes, and very slightly better compression.
The two don't seem that far apart and the upgrade cost is pretty steep.

Raven is basically Epic Dragon at 4.5K WS, fixed mount/olpf, in a DSMC2 body, with Wifi, 2K ProRes

Tough to guess what will sit between Weapon Mg and Raven... sounds pretty much like current Epic Dragon.
 
I'm also an epic dragon owner that is stuck somewhere between the Raven and MG Weapon. Personally I can't justify the cost of the upgrade to the MG and CF.

Im hopeful that the same trade in value will be held for the Scarlet Weapon. The Raven really is enticing to me due to the size and capability at its cost. I'd be curious to know how many Epic Dragon owners want to get into the DSMC 2 style but can't quite justify the jump to MG.

The Scarlet Weapon might be the best choice.
 
Tend to agree. By Raven being so aggressive spec-wise as a kitted camera with 4.5K 3:1 with AKS and 128GB media and 2K Pro Res, plus even a screen for 9.5K - which truth be told is plenty good for a lot of uses - then the 17.5K residual Epic D Value plus another 17 K for something that does not include the new screen, or any media but gives 6K seems like not a clear logic. I realize we could all discuss things like interchangeable OLPF, or Mounts or some lower compression - but really to me Raven ate MGs lunch and I too would hope that a modified deal awaits and a way to trade the Epic value across to this next entity. Heck I would even consider Epic D to Raven if it allowed me to keep a healthy Red.com credit on file.
 
The announcement of the pending announcement of a Scarlet Dragon upgrade to a WPN form factor, has effectively gutted any resale value for your ordered but not yet delivered WPN Mg...

HaHaHaHa - I say this with my best Chicken Little 'the sky is falling' sarcasm font!
 
Personally i really need progress support in my camera. I almost order the proxy module. But that never happend....
Now i can upgrade my Epic-Dragon to the Weapon. But that will cost me at least 17000 eur. Only for progress support... So i am considering a other camera
 
Jeffrey Loewe said:
I'm also an epic dragon owner that is stuck somewhere between the Raven and MG Weapon.
Click to expand...

Call me crazy, ownership/access to an Epic-D isn't what i'd call being stuck. :sifone:

Its a great camera, I will no doubt keep mine for at least another decade.


That being said, Raven as an additional tool, is shaping up to be a sweet B/ProRess/Quiet/Smaller/more ergonomic camera.

I'm waiting till post NAB16; however, I'm 90% sure I'll snatch one up by the end of next year.
 
A fully kitted Raven is less than the upgrade costs to MG Weapon from Epic-M Dragon, and that's a great thing for many. Yes higher data rates for recording at higher frame rates are useful, as they Dragon and Weapon MG will do. ProRes is not something I care for but I understand why people want it. Great. Quieter fan? Cool, but I'm pretty happy with what Red has done to address it to date -i.e. compared to what it once was.

So question is can we justify the cost? It seems already with R1's and Scarlets we can barely get any rentals out of our Dragons considering there are so many owner/operators around, and rental rates are much lower than when we first got our Epic-M's. Par for the course and the lesson being take advantage of the new tech ASAP or lose out on your ability to recoup.

Of course an ROI is useful only if you have clients demanding the cameras, or enough work in one's own pipeline to justify the upgrade. 8K may do that. Better dynamic range and less noise makes it a good argument, but probably not at $1,000/day or $2,500 for a weekly as we're currently seeing.

A Raven could rent for $200-300 a day and maybe less than $1,000/week. That sounds like a good return for those who may want to rent these out, but with such an affordable price on Raven many will simply buy, and thus saturate the rental market...maybe some folks will realize they need a Dragon or Weapon for the higher frame rates and less compression.

Don't get me wrong...I love the Red philosophy and am thankful for the ability to keep upgrading and (hopefully) staying relevant as it pertains to investment on camera tech. Just hoping we will get some love -which I'm sure will happen when Jarred is ready to announce.
 
Well said, Jeremy. The MG upgrade (which is what I chose for both my cameras) is very expensive for the incremental benefits, especially when you consider that we are now going to essentially repurchase IO's and other accessories that are slightly different from their current versions.
If Red announces higher frame rates, or better ProRes options, or another really useful and exciting functional feature, it will have been worth it.
But I'm with you- quieter fan? Check. ProRes? Check. Auto-blackshade? Check. Auto-sensing OLPFs? Check. That's all great stuff. But all stuff that should have been part of the Dragon upgrade, or should never have been an issue in the first place. Seems like most of what we can "boast" about with our MG Weapon upgrade is one bug fix or another.
Having said that, I have been with Red from the start, and think their system is one of the best and most comprehensive (simple onboard RAW capture, easy to use finishing tools to color and export to any format, flexible frame size and resolution choices, user-selectable compression settings, etc.)
Hoping that there will be a little love and some good surprises to make the MG upgrade path worthwhile.
Cheers,
Harry
 
Harry Clark said:
Well said, Jeremy. The MG upgrade (which is what I chose for both my cameras) is very expensive for the incremental benefits, especially when you consider that we are now going to essentially repurchase IO's and other accessories that are slightly different from their current versions.
If Red announces higher frame rates, or better ProRes options, or another really useful and exciting functional feature, it will have been worth it.
But I'm with you- quieter fan? Check. ProRes? Check. Auto-blackshade? Check. Auto-sensing OLPFs? Check. That's all great stuff. But all stuff that should have been part of the Dragon upgrade, or should never have been an issue in the first place. Seems like most of what we can "boast" about with our MG Weapon upgrade is one bug fix or another.
Having said that, I have been with Red from the start, and think their system is one of the best and most comprehensive (simple onboard RAW capture, easy to use finishing tools to color and export to any format, flexible frame size and resolution choices, user-selectable compression settings, etc.)
Hoping that there will be a little love and some good surprises to make the MG upgrade path worthwhile.
Cheers,
Harry
Click to expand...
Yep..
 
All are good points but they really have you by the balls on one thing: once there are Weapon Dragons readily available, most productions will not want to shoot on Epic Dragon. The in-camera proxies alone will be a huge factor for production companies; a DIT on set with a red rocket is expensive. Add to that the cleaner blacks, improved color, quieter fan, etc and it'll be harder to sell them on an Epic. At the very least, you'll be getting a lower day rate on it. Over the 4 year life of the camera body, that's a lot of lost revenue.
 
Daniel Reed said:
Call me crazy, ownership/access to an Epic-D isn't what i'd call being stuck. :sifone:

Its a great camera, I will no doubt keep mine for at least another decade.


That being said, Raven as an additional tool, is shaping up to be a sweet B/ProRess/Quiet/Smaller/more ergonomic camera.

I'm waiting till post NAB16; however, I'm 90% sure I'll snatch one up by the end of next year.
Click to expand...
Let me explain.

The DSMC 2.0 adds a few new features that make switching over a huge advantage, weight savings, no black shading etc....

I am usually climbing mountains, hiking, skinning or backpacking to get shots. Weight savings is huge and having the ability to cut weight and also avoid black shading would be huge!
 
I'm with you Jeffrey, I jumped on the Scarlet D to Epic D upgrade and I'm somewhat wishing I'd stayed at Scarlet D so that I could afford a Weapon body.

Jeffrey Loewe said:
I'm also an epic dragon owner that is stuck somewhere between the Raven and MG Weapon. Personally I can't justify the cost of the upgrade to the MG and CF.

Im hopeful that the same trade in value will be held for the Scarlet Weapon. The Raven really is enticing to me due to the size and capability at its cost. I'd be curious to know how many Epic Dragon owners want to get into the DSMC 2 style but can't quite justify the jump to MG.

The Scarlet Weapon might be the best choice.
Click to expand...
 
Jeffrey. I am not so sure it is a question of justification - more a value proposition. I am unclear if Red planned on Raven as far back as NAB or not. But Raven kind of sets a bench mark. At one end you have Raven - that can be yours for 9K or so with 4.5K 3:1, 2K Pro Res, the form factor and AKS. If one trades an Epic D in for an MG, you get 6K, better compression but similar stuff beyond that. And the trade plus extra cash comes to about 34K. Almost 4 times the amount. It's the size of the gap that seems to be the question. So I think everyone is hoping and praying. And Jarrad maybe is locked away somewhere unable to speak. But I think we are all hoping for those who are not going to be wanting 8K etc anytime soon, that Raven will spawn a middle ground trade in for Scarlet and Epic D that is a halfway. Or some crazy thing like that.
 
Not to mention being eligible for a paid upgrade in a couple of years to the new sensor

Jeffrey Loewe said:
Let me explain.

The DSMC 2.0 adds a few new features that make switching over a huge advantage, weight savings, no black shading etc....

I am usually climbing mountains, hiking, skinning or backpacking to get shots. Weight savings is huge and having the ability to cut weight and also avoid black shading would be huge!
Click to expand...
 
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